If you believe in intercessory prayer as I do, is that "open theism"?

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-sovereignty-of-god-and-prayer

By John Piper

"I am often asked, "If you believe God works all things according to the counsel of his will (Ephesians 1:11), and that his knowledge of all things past, present, and future is infallible, then what is the point of praying that anything happen?" Usually this question is asked in relation to human decisions: "If God has predestined some to be his sons and chosen them before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:45), then what's the point in praying for anyone's conversion?"

The implicit argument here is that if prayer is to be possible at all, people must have the power of self-determination. That is, a person's decisions must ultimately belong to himself, not God. For otherwise, he is determined by God, and all his decisions are really fixed in God's eternal counsel. Let's examine the reasonableness of this argument by reflecting on the example cited above.

God Decides Who Will Be Saved

"Why pray for anyone's conversion if God has chosen before the foundation of the world who will be his sons?"

A person in need of conversion is "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1); he is "a slave to sin" (John 8:34; Romans 6:17); the god of this world has blinded his mind that he might not see "the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ" (2 Corinthians. 4:4); his heart is hardened against God (Ephesians 4:18) so that he is hostile to God and in rebellion against God's will (Romans 8:7).

"I do not ask God to sit back and wait for my neighbor to decide to change." Tweet Share on Facebook
Now, I would like to turn the question back to my questioner: If you insist that this man must have the power of ultimate self-determination, what is the point of praying for him? What do you want God to do for him? You can't ask that God overcome the man's rebellion, for rebellion is precisely what the man is now choosing, so that would mean God overcame his choice and took away his power of self-determination. But how can God save this man unless he act so as to change the man's heart from hard hostility to tender trust?

Will you pray that God enlighten his mind so that he truly see the beauty of Christ and believe? If you pray this, you are in effect asking God no longer to leave the determination of the man's will in his own power. You are asking God to do something within the man's mind (or heart) so that he will surely see and believe. That is, you are conceding that the ultimate determination of the man's decision to trust Christ is God's, not merely his.

God's Sovereignty Enables Prayer

It is not the doctrine of God's sovereignty that thwarts prayer for the conversion of sinners. On the contrary, it is the unbiblical notion of self-determination which would consistently put an end to all prayers for the lost. Prayer is a request that God do something. But the only thing God can do to save a lost sinner is to overcome his resistance to God. If you insist that he retain his self-determination, then you are insisting that he remain without Christ. For "no one can come to [Christ] unless it is granted him by the Father" (John 6:65, 44).

Only the person who rejects human self-determination can consistently pray for God to save the lost. My prayer for unbelievers is that God will do for them what he did for Lydia: He opened her heart so that she gave heed to what Paul said (Acts 16:14). I will pray that God, who once said, "Let there be light!" will by that same creative power shine in their hearts to give "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" (2 Corinthians 4:6). I will pray that he will "take out their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh" (Ezekiel 36:26). I will pray that they be born not of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man but of God (John 1:13). And with all my praying I will try to "be kind to everyone, able to teach, correcting [my] opponents with gentleness," for "God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth" (2 Timothy 2:2425).

"God knows those who are his, and he will raise up messengers to win them." Tweet Share on Facebook
In short, I do not ask God to sit back and wait for my neighbor to decide to change. I do not suggest to God that he keep his distance lest his beauty become irresistible and violate my neighbor's power of self-determination. No! I pray that he ravish my unbelieving neighbor with his beauty, that he unshackle the enslaved will, that he make the dead alive and that he suffer no resistance to stop him lest my neighbor perish.

The Relationship Between Prayer and Evangelism

If someone now says, "Okay, granted that a person's conversion is ultimately determined by God, I still don't see the point of your prayer. If God chose before the foundation of the world who would be converted, what function does your prayer have?" My answer is that it has a function like that of preaching: How shall the lost believe in whom they have not heard, and how shall they hear without a preacher, and how shall they preach unless they are sent (Romans 10:1415)? Belief in Christ is a gift of God (John 6:65; 2 Timothy 2:25; Ephesians 2:8), but God has ordained that the means by which men believe on Jesus is through the preaching of men.

It is simply naive to say that if no one spread the gospel, all those predestined to be sons of God would be converted anyway. The reason this is naive is because it overlooks the fact that the preaching of the gospel is just as predestined as is the believing of the gospel: Paul was set apart for his preaching ministry before he was born (Galatians 1:15), as was Jeremiah (Jeremiah 1:5). Therefore, to ask, "If we don't evangelize, will the elect be saved?" is like asking, "If there is no predestination, will the predestined be saved?"

God knows those who are his, and he will raise up messengers to win them. If someone refuses to be a part of that plan because he dislikes the idea of being tampered with before he was born, then he will be the loser, not God and not the elect. As C.S. Lewis writes, "You will certainly carry out God's purpose, however you act, but it makes a difference to you whether you serve like Judas or like John" (The Problem of Pain, 111).

God Uses Means

Prayer is like preaching in that it is a human act also. It is a human act that God has ordained and which he delights in because it reflects the dependence of his creatures upon him. He has promised to respond to prayer, and his response is just as contingent upon our prayer as our prayer is in accordance with his will. "And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us" (1 John 5:14). When we don't know how to pray according to God's will but desire it earnestly, "the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God" (Romans 8:27).

"Prayer is a human act that God has ordained and which he delights in because it reflects the dependence of his creatures upon him." Tweet Share on Facebook
In other words, just as God will see to it that his word is proclaimed as a means to saving the elect, so he will see to it that all those prayers are prayed which he has promised to respond to. I think Paul's words in Romans 15:18 would apply equally well to his preaching and his praying ministry: "I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience." Even our prayers are a gift from the one who "[works] in us that which is pleasing in his sight" (Hebrews 13:21). Oh, how grateful we should be that he has chosen us to be employed in this high service! How eager we should be to spend much time in prayer!"

dermdoc said:

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If you believe in intercessory prayer as I do, is that "open theism"?

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Matt. 26:39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will."

Does this mean God didn't know if Christ was going to die on the cross?

ramblin_ag02 said:

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With all due respect to John Piper, the questions he is trying to answer and his response are all equally meaningless. "What's the point?" "Why should I?" "What if?" These questions only make sense if free will exists. If free will does not exist, then the only answer is "we will do what we will do" and "whatever is going to happen is going to happen". No need to pen an article or an essay of the subject.

Without human free will, the entire story of creation is already written and unalterable. Like if Tolkien had written an cataclysmic ending for the universe of Middle Earth to match the Silmarillion. It's done. It's ordained and the present is just the needle tracing a path across the record.

One of my many criticisms of this is the world itself. Having studied nature and human history to a bit if depth, it just seems like a perfect God could have done better. Natural disasters, disease, famine, war, birth defects, etc are all truly awful things for a God to inflict on feeling automatons.

At least some of these things make more sense in the context of human free will. War for instance. Or other things. God didn't want you to live next to a volcano. God did not tell you to take thalidomide. Human idiocy can account for a large portion of human suffering. But that doesn't work without free will.

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Do you accept the Trinity?

ramblin_ag02 said:

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I do

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Then this logic stuff...

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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If you believe in intercessory prayer as I do, is that "open theism"?

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Matt. 26:39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will."

Does this mean God didn't know if Christ was going to die on the cross?

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Not my question pastor and knew that was coming.

The question is can we as believers change things with intercessory prayers?

And is not Christ God? Why would He ask that if so?

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Sorry. Can't help it. God preordained me to point out the logical inconsistencies of Calvinism

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Human responsibility? No. Divine sovereignty!
Divine sovereignty? No. Human responsibility!

God is one? No. God is three!
God is three? No. God is one!

Christ is 50% God and 50% Man?
Actually, no. Christ is also 100% Man and 100% God for full atonement to be reached in the hypostatic union.

This makes perfect logical sense to God as Triune. It is bad math to us. But it is good theology.

We can error on either side of the coin concerning all of these examples.

Is it legalism? No. Antinomianism shall reign!
Is it antinomianism? No. Legalism shall reign!

Same error in us all, whether we hold to this reality or not. It transcends our minds and is known by the mind of the Spirit.

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The question is can we as believers change things with intercessory prayers?

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I think from God's perspective, this is the "wrong question". I say that in quotes because God accepts our wrong questions as He loves us.

God asks us to pray for others for His reasons...and we already know that some of them are. We are benefited greatly by our prayers for others and others praying for us. Personally, I think this is why God wants us to do it. I don't think it really changes his mind though, in an absolute sense.

diehard03 said:

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The question is can we as believers change things with intercessory prayers?

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I think from God's perspective, this is the "wrong question". I say that in quotes because God accepts our wrong questions as He loves us.

God asks us to pray for others for His reasons...and we already know that some of them are. We are benefited greatly by our prayers for others and others praying for us. Personally, I think this is why God wants us to do it. I don't think it really changes his mind though, in an absolute sense.

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With all due respect, do you know how arrogant that sounded?

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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If you believe in intercessory prayer as I do, is that "open theism"?

---

Matt. 26:39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will."

Does this mean God didn't know if Christ was going to die on the cross?

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Not my question pastor and knew that was coming.

The question is can we as believers change things with intercessory prayers?

And is not Christ God? Why would He ask that if so?

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Did Christ change something in his prayer? Yes and no.

Do we change things in our prayers? Yes and no.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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If you believe in intercessory prayer as I do, is that "open theism"?

---

Matt. 26:39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will."

Does this mean God didn't know if Christ was going to die on the cross?

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Not my question pastor and knew that was coming.

The question is can we as believers change things with intercessory prayers?

And is not Christ God? Why would He ask that if so?

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Did Christ change something in his prayer? Yes and no.

Do we change things in our prayers? Yes and no.

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So no answer?

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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If you believe in intercessory prayer as I do, is that "open theism"?

---

Matt. 26:39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will."

Does this mean God didn't know if Christ was going to die on the cross?

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Not my question pastor and knew that was coming.

The question is can we as believers change things with intercessory prayers?

And is not Christ God? Why would He ask that if so?

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Did Christ change something in his prayer? Yes and no.

Do we change things in our prayers? Yes and no.

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So no answer?

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Yes and no is a perfectly good answer when dealing with the relationship between God's omniscience and man's dealings with it.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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If you believe in intercessory prayer as I do, is that "open theism"?

---

Matt. 26:39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will."

Does this mean God didn't know if Christ was going to die on the cross?

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Not my question pastor and knew that was coming.

The question is can we as believers change things with intercessory prayers?

And is not Christ God? Why would He ask that if so?

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Did Christ change something in his prayer? Yes and no.

Do we change things in our prayers? Yes and no.

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So no answer?

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Yes and no is a perfectly good answer when dealing with the relationship between God's omniscience and man's dealings with it.

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Okay pastor. Merry Christmas!

Speaking of Christmas... Does the incarnation of Jesus born to a virgin make logical sense?

https://www.christianbook.com/evangelism-and-the-sovereignty-of-god/j-i-packer/9780830837991/pd/837991?en=google&event=SHOP&kw=academic-0-20%7C837991&p=1179710&dv=m&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI35Dymfvd7QIVUL7ACh06kwHPEAQYASABEgL3YfD_BwE

If you read "Knowing God" by J.I. Packer, then you would enjoy this book for $12 now.

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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If you believe in intercessory prayer as I do, is that "open theism"?

---

Matt. 26:39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will."

Does this mean God didn't know if Christ was going to die on the cross?

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Not my question pastor and knew that was coming.

The question is can we as believers change things with intercessory prayers?

And is not Christ God? Why would He ask that if so?

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Did Christ change something in his prayer? Yes and no.

Do we change things in our prayers? Yes and no.

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So no answer?

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Yes and no is a perfectly good answer when dealing with the relationship between God's omniscience and man's dealings with it.

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Okay pastor. Merry Christmas!

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Why do you keep calling me pastor?

Quotes from Charles Spurgeon on Prayer.

"When we cannot pray as we would, it is good to pray as we can." "If I feel myself disinclined to pray, then is the time when I need to pray more than ever." "Prayer is the natural outgushing of a soul in communion with Jesus."


"The very act of prayer is a blessing."

"To pray is to enter the treasure-house of God and to gather riches out of an inexhaustible storehouse.
You are before the Lord; let your words be few, but let your heart be fervent."

"As well could you expect a plant to grow without air and water as to expect your heart to grow without prayer and faith."

"You will observe that the desire to commune with God
is intensified by the failure of all other sources of consolation."

"Prayer is the best response to hatred."

"It is well said that neglected prayer is the birth-place of all evil."

"Prayer is an art which only the Spirit can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer."

"No man can progress in grace if he forsakes prayer."

"He who knows how to overcome with God in prayer has heaven and earth at his disposal."

"Prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Spirit can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer- pray till you can pray."

"If you want that splendid power in prayer, you must remain in loving, abiding union with the Lord Jesus Christ."

"A mighty piece of weaponry in the battle of prayer is God's promise."

"Cold prayers ask for a denial!"

"Groanings which cannot be uttered are often prayers which cannot be refused."

"True prayer is the trading of the heart with God."

"Sometimes when we do not receive comfort in our prayers, when we are broken and cast down, that is when we are really wrestling and prevailing in prayer."
Prayer plumes the wings of God's young eaglets so that they may learn to mount above the clouds. Prayer brings inner strength to God's warriors and sends them forth to spiritual battle with their muscles firm and their armor in place."

"We know not what prayer cannot do!"

"Nothing brings such leanness into a man's soul as lack of prayer."

"Prayer is doubts destroyer, ruin's remedy, the antidote to all anxieties."

"All good is born in prayer, and all good springs from it.
Continue in prayer, and though the blessing tarry, it must come; in God's own time it must appear to you.
Whether we like it or not, asking is the rule of the kingdom."

"Anything is a blessing which makes us pray."

"I would rather teach one man to pray than ten men to preach."

"But if one neglects his closet, then all evil comes of it."

"I believe that God hears your prayers because there is a secret work of the Spirit going on within you teaching you to pray."

"True prayer is an approach of the soul by the Spirit of God to the throne of God."

"Pray until you can pray; pray to be helped to pray and do not give up praying because you cannot pray. For it is when you think you cannot pray that is when you are praying."

"Prayer can never be in excess."

"Prayer girds human weakness with divine strength, turns human folly into heavenly wisdom, and gives to troubled mortals the peace of God."

"We know not what prayer can do."

"Prayer is a creature's strength, his very breathe and being."

"Prayer is not a hard requirement-it is the natural duty of a creature to its creator, the simplest homage that human need can pay to divine liberality."

"Prayer is the slender nerve that moveth the muscle of Omnipotence."

"The man who has his mouth full of arguments in prayer shall soon have his mouth full of benedictions in answer to prayer."

"The man who, despite the teaching of Scripture, tries to pray without a Savior, insults the deity."

"The ship of prayer may sail through all temptations, doubts and fears, straight up to the throne of God.
Prayer and praise are the oars by which a man may row his boat into the deep waters of the knowledge of Christ."

"I know of no better thermometer to your spiritual temperature than this, the measure of the intensity of your prayer."

https://prayer-coach.com/prayer-quotes-charles-spurgeon/

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God asks us to pray for others for His reasons...and we already know that some of them are. We are benefited greatly by our prayers for others and others praying for us. Personally, I think this is why God wants us to do it. I don't think it really changes his mind though, in an absolute sense.

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Just reiterating that in the absence of free will God doesn't "ask" us to do anything. Everything we do is directly compelled by His Will.

I would agree that God does not change His mind. Even from an open theism perspective. However, with open theism humans can change the world, and God can react to the different situations in different ways and still be transcendently good.

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Just reiterating that in the absence of free will God doesn't "ask" us to do anything. Everything we do is directly compelled by His Will.

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I don't disagree from a purely objective stance, but I think the distinction is largely irrelevant when we consider it's a commandment nonetheless and that we cannot really "determine" our free will.

Everyone thinks they have free will, whether they believe in it or not...and we are commanded things...also whether we believe in free will or not.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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If you believe in intercessory prayer as I do, is that "open theism"?

---

Matt. 26:39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will."

Does this mean God didn't know if Christ was going to die on the cross?

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Not my question pastor and knew that was coming.

The question is can we as believers change things with intercessory prayers?

And is not Christ God? Why would He ask that if so?

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Did Christ change something in his prayer? Yes and no.

Do we change things in our prayers? Yes and no.

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So no answer?

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Yes and no is a perfectly good answer when dealing with the relationship between God's omniscience and man's dealings with it.

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Okay pastor. Merry Christmas!

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Why do you keep calling me pastor?

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I thought you were one. And ina complimentary way.

Sorry.

diehard03 said:

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With all due respect, do you know how arrogant that sounded?

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Arrogant on who? Me? I don't see how. God? Sure, but part of soverignity and mercy is that it's one sided. Without Him going first, we are nothing.

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Agree. I was a little upset about the cfp stuff yesterday.

dermdoc said:

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diehard03 said:

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Quote:

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With all due respect, do you know how arrogant that sounded?

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Arrogant on who? Me? I don't see how. God? Sure, but part of soverignity and mercy is that it's one sided. Without Him going first, we are nothing.

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Agree. I was a little upset about the cfp stuff yesterday.

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Same. I have more of an issue with OSU than ND. 6 games. They played 6 freaking games. 2 of those against teams with winning records (powerhouses of Indiana & Northwestern), and they looked bad in both. At least ND has a couple legit wins. OSU doesn't even pass the "eye test".

Robbed.

The power of any prayer is to effect the mind and well being of the person praying. If you really believe god is omniscient it's a logical contradiction to say that intercessory prayer Changed his actions

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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God asks us to pray for others for His reasons...and we already know that some of them are. We are benefited greatly by our prayers for others and others praying for us. Personally, I think this is why God wants us to do it. I don't think it really changes his mind though, in an absolute sense.

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Just reiterating that in the absence of free will God doesn't "ask" us to do anything. Everything we do is directly compelled by His Will.

I would agree that God does not change His mind. Even from an open theism perspective. However, with open theism humans can change the world, and God can react to the different situations in different ways and still be transcendently good.

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You're very wishy washy concerning the law. It's almost like you believe Christianity was antinomian. I read that in your comments in the Pacifist thread.
This is not shocking to me on this topic.

Aggrad08 said:

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The power of any prayer is to effect the mind and well being of the person praying. If you really believe god is omniscient it's a logical contradiction to say that intercessory prayer Changed his actions

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I prefer the Holy Spirit pray through me and direct me on how to pray when I do. Praying in the Holy Spirit is like that. It's communion, even the trees are said to be clapping their hands. And if we didn't praise him then the rocks would cry out.

It's another form of the Eucharist or the Lord's Table or Communion spoken and molded into the body and blood of Christ.

Now I know I'm on the right track. I was a full-on Messianic Torah warrior for over a decade. I believed that mainstream Christians were either as lost as pagans or intentionally in rebellion to God's revealed commandments for worship and lifestyle.

As you can tell I've tempered that a bit. I still think the best possible ethos is the one dictated by God in the Torah and do my best to follow it. However, I no longer judge others who choose a different path. There are countless examples of amazing Christians who embody Christ's love in countless different ways. Who am I to judge Billy Graham for not observing the Sabbath or Mother Teresa for not keeping kosher?

So I feel like I'm in very good company being a Torah-observant Christian accused of teaching against the Law

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Now I know I'm on the right track. I was a full-on Messianic Torah warrior for over a decade. I believed that mainstream Christians were either as lost as pagans or intentionally in rebellion to God's revealed commandments for worship and lifestyle.

As you can tell I've tempered that a bit. I still think the best possible ethos is the one dictated by God in the Torah and do my best to follow it. However, I no longer judge others who choose a different path. There are countless examples of amazing Christians who embody Christ's love in countless different ways. Who am I to judge Billy Graham for not observing the Sabbath or Mother Teresa for not keeping kosher?

So I feel like I'm in very good company being a Torah-observant Christian accused of teaching against the Law

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Yeah. But okay. That's explaining where you are coming from, but doesn't explain how:

ramblin_ag02 said:

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I'm not judging, God is the judge. We do have to use discernment to know right from wrong, and to be able to tell the truth. That's why I said I do not condemn you. God will condemn ALL who PRACTICE lawlessness.

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That's funny. Nothing happening here sounds like Pacifist is eating food polluted by idols, eating blood, eating strangled animals or sexual immorality. After all, Pacifist is married to the same person so neither adultery nor fornication qualify. Best I can tell Pacifist is a gentile, so those are the only things that matter, right? I seem to remember hearing that ad nauseum from just about every Christian I know.

Personally, I think it's the height of irony for someone who almost certainly regularly violates the Sabbath, eats unclean meats, and statistically has probably had sex out of wedlock to condemn someone else for "lawlessness".

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Look Kosher is clearly done away with by Peter's vision in Acts. Jesus showed that he is Lord of the Sabbath.

The idea was to attend the synagogue on Saturday (The sabbath) and then meet in homes on other days.

But early Jewish-Christians were kicked out.

But anyway, we are still to make a special day dedicated for worship and rest.

These are apples to oranges in what you were putting forth.

I can let all of that ^above fall to the wayside.

The following below is simply slander.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Moral relativism and Christianity are anti-thetical to the extreme. Christianity has a rigid guideline of behavior, of which all of us fall short but strive to meet anyway.

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Christianity was the original moral relativism and it does not have rigid guidelines of behavior. The Mosaic Law was a whole set of rigid guidelines of behavior and Christianity deliberately broke from that. Paul literally preached a message of doing everything from a position of selfless love and not worrying about guidelines, laws and rules.

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Love is not against the law. The law is not against love.
We are to meditate on the law. See Psalm 119.

Moral relativism?
Matthew 5:48 (Jesus)

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

What you are doing is lowering the standard of God's holiness.
"Be perfect" is a command. No one gets in without it.

What could all these three purposes of the law mean?

If Calvin is right, then Jesus was a masochist.