All sin is equal. All sin is not equal.

5,372 Views | 127 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by Patriot101
ramblin_ag02
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Patriot101 • 9:08a, 10/30/20
AG
Quote:
Why is Pharaoh used in the same context as an individual along with Jacob and Esau?

So there were no elect Edomites before they had done either good or evil? So that the purpose of election might stand? So it is not the man, I guess Paul meant men, who wills but it is God who shows mercy?


No. I don't see that as the point in the context at all.

There is a both a cooperate and individual election going on in Romans 9 or Paul wouldn't have continued with Pharaoh.

Nor would Paul only be mourning over just Edomite descendent friends to open up the chapter.
That's clearly not the point when he mentions all of Israel right before mentioning Jacob and Esau as twins.

Why is Rebekah, their mom, mentioned? Then what does Rebekah represent?
I can't follow your thought process at all. I have no idea what you're trying to say or what point you're trying to make
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
9:16a, 10/30/20
None of us understand it.
Reply Quote
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
9:50a, 10/30/20
Romans 3:
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.10 As it is written:

"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."

Are the words "no one" going to be lessened or downgraded as well?
Reply Quote
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
10:11a, 10/30/20
"Feelings"

"Follow your heart here"


Jeremiah 17:9 (ESV) - "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"





Reply Quote
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
1:25p, 10/30/20
2 Peter 3:16

"He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."
Reply Quote
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
8:46a, 11/2/20
Go and tell no one about these things...

Mark 1:40-45

40 A man came to Jesus with a bad skin disease. This man got down on his knees and begged Jesus, saying, "If You want to, You can heal me." 41 Jesus put His hand on him with loving-pity. He said, "I want to. Be healed." 42 At once the disease was gone and the man was healed. 43 Jesus spoke strong words to the man before He sent him away. 44 He said to him, "Tell no one about this. Go and let the religious leader of the Jews see you. Give the gifts Moses has told you to give when a man is healed of a disease. Let the leaders know you have been healed." 45 But the man went out and talked about it everywhere. After this Jesus could not go to any town if people knew He was there. He had to stay in the desert. People came to Him from everywhere.
Reply Quote
AgLiving06
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Patriot101 • 8:55p, 11/2/20
Patriot101 said:
If there is no original sin passed down upon us from our first parents, then how does God judge Essau before he was born or before he did good or evil?

How does God, without original sin, allow hurricanes, tsunamis, tornadoes, volcanic eruptions, floods, and earthquakes to kill thousands of innocent people?

The Scriptures teach that God is sovereign over the weather, for instance.

What is your definition of original sin?
Reply Quote
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to AgLiving06 • 7:08a, 11/3/20
AgLiving06 said:
Patriot101 said:
If there is no original sin passed down upon us from our first parents, then how does God judge Essau before he was born or before he did good or evil?

How does God, without original sin, allow hurricanes, tsunamis, tornadoes, volcanic eruptions, floods, and earthquakes to kill thousands of innocent people?

The Scriptures teach that God is sovereign over the weather, for instance.

What is your definition of original sin?



From the Westminster Confession of Faith, which I adhere to.

Chapter VI.
Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and of the Punishment thereof.

I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptation of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit.(a) This their sin God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.(b)

(a) Gen. 3:13; II Cor. 11:3.
(b) Rom. 11:32.

II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God,(c) and so became dead in sin,(d) and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.(e)

(c) Gen. 3:6, 7, 8; Eccles. 7:29; Rom. 3:23.
(d) Gen. 2:17; Eph. 2:1.
(e) Tit. 1:15; Gen. 6:5; Jer. 17:9; Rom. 3:10 to 19.

III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed,(f) and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.(g)

(f) Gen. 1:27, 28 & Gen. 2:16, 17 and Acts 17:26 with Rom. 5:12, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and I Cor. 15:21, 22, 49.
(g) Ps. 51:5; Gen. 5:3; Job 14:4, Job 15:14.

IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,(h) and wholly inclined to all evil,(i) do proceed all actual transgressions.(k)

(h) Rom. 5:6; Rom. 8:7, Rom. 7:18; Col. 1:21.
(i) Gen. 6:5; Gen. 8:21; Rom. 3:10, 11, 12.
(k) James 1:14, 15; Eph. 2:2, 3; Matt. 15:19.

V. This corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated;(l) and although it be, through Christ, pardoned and mortified, yet both itself and all the motions thereof are truly and properly sin.(m)

(l) I John 1:8, 10; Rom. 7:14, 17, 18, 23; James 3:2; Prov. 20:9; Eccles. 7:20.
(m) Rom. 7:5, 7, 8, 25; Gal. 5:17.

VI. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto,(n) doth, in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner;(o) whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God,(p) and curse of the law,(q) and so made subject to death,(r) with all miseries spiritual,(s) temporal,(t) and eternal.(u)

(n) I John 3:4.
(o) Rom. 2:15; Rom. 3:9, 19.
(p) Ephes. 2:3.
(q) Gal. 3:10.
(r) Rom. 6:23.
(s) Ephes. 4:18.
(t) Rom. 8:20; Lam. 3:39.
(u) Matt. 25:41, II Thess. 1:9.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/westminster-confession-faith/
Reply Quote
2 edits
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
7:27a, 11/3/20
Even without the scriptures...

What is my definition of original sin?

It can be found throughout church history. Look at the schisms and corruption, along with the shining light of goodness attributed to God's glory alone.

When the saints lay down their crowns before the feet of Christ because our good works ultimately are because of Him...

The church is like the moon. The church has no light on/of its own.
Pope Francis basically stated that. ^^

God make me obedient today by the power of your word and God the Holy Spirit. Amen. God is one.

And I know..I know...you can't talk about the three without talking about the one. You can't talk about the one without talking about the three.

Both true and mysterious as well. The Trinity is the high point of revelation (Matthew 28:18-20).
Too lofty for me. But I believe in the Trinity as well!!
Reply Quote
5 edits
PacifistAg
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
8:26a, 11/3/20
AG
https://www.oca.org/questions/teaching/original-sin

Quote:
Concerning the originalor "first"sin, that commited by Adam and Eve, Orthodoxy believes that, while everyone bears the consequences of the first sin, the foremost of which is death, only Adam and Eve are guilty of that sin. Roman Catholicism teaches that everyone bears not only the consequence, but also the guilt, of that sin.
Or another link on the Eastern Orthodox view, which I subscribe to: https://orthodoxwiki.org/Original_sin

Quote:
The Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that no one is guilty for the actual sin they committed but rather everyone inherits the consequences of this act; the foremost of this is physical death in this world. This is the reason why the original fathers of the Church over the centuries have preferred the term ancestral sin. The consequences and penalties of this ancestral act are transferred by means of natural heredity to the entire human race. Since every human is a descendant of Adam then 'no one is free from the implications of this sin' (which is human death) and that the only way to be freed from this is through baptism. While mortality is certainly a result of the Fall, along with this also what is termed "concupiscence" in the writings of St Augustine of Hippo -- this is the "evil impulse" of Judaism, and in Orthodoxy, we might say this is our "disordered passion." It isn't only that we are born in death, or in a state of distance from God, but also that we are born with disordered passion within us. Orthodoxy would not describe the human state as one of "total depravity."

Zobel can comment much more authoritatively on the subject than I though, seeing as he's actually Eastern Orthodox.
Reply Quote
3
dermdoc
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to PacifistAg • 8:37a, 11/3/20
AG
Agree with you and the Eastern Orthodox Church. When I look at a newborn I do not see sin. Now all men are born with a sin nature because of the Fall and need a Savior but that is a different theology.

And I do not believe unbaptized babies go to Hell.

God is sovereign but is good and loves us.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
swimmerbabe11
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Frok • 8:45a, 11/3/20
Frok said:
To me original sin is one of the most apparent truths. We are all bent. It's the struggle every one of us deal with daily.




agreed. It seems self evident.
Reply Quote
1
AgLiving06
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to dermdoc • 10:27a, 11/3/20
Your kids must be too old for you to remember them as baby's

I think you're maybe mixing thoughts together to derive a conclusion that may or may not actually work out.

First, with respect to newborns, and anyone else, I hope you don't see sin. We are all God's children. I know you don't mean that you look at them and see evil, but it's an important clarification.

Second I don't believe unbaptized babies necessarily go to "hell" either. Like you I have to believe that God has a bigger plan than what you or I could fully understand. However, that does not mean we should delay in baptizing children though. If I parallel it to your profession, you wouldn't delay giving medicine to a child simply because they are a child. In this way God makes a promise in the baptism that we should want for our children asap.

The key point I then want to make is that neither of these are directly related to Original Sin. I really like this concise definition:

"In its ordinary meaning this term does not refer to the origin of sin but to the guilt of Adam's sin imputed to his offspring (hereditary guilt, Ro 5:1219; Eph 2:3) and the corruption of man's nature that occurred when sin entered and which inheres in the human will and inclinations."

I've got 2 boys (2 and 4). I didn't have to teach them to throw a temper tantrum when they don't get their way (because who would). I didn't have to teach them anger or stubbornness or even selfishness. They know what they "want" regardless of whether its good or bad. (I say this as I just had to go make my son unlock the door as he locked my wife and other child out "just because."

Paul would point out that we have all been "slaves to sin" (Romans 6:20). That doesn't necessitate that we are evil, but that we desire things that are the opposite of the love you mentioned. It means that there is a part of us that always resists the "will of God." The part of us that retains corruption of Adam that will finally be removed when we see Jesus again. That is the original sin we talk of.

As Frok and swimmerbabe point out, intuitively we don't need Paul to tell us. We recognize it in ourselves every moment that we live. So we resist and try to focus on Jesus as much as we can, knowing that his death and resurrection will win in the end.
Reply Quote
1
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
10:27a, 11/3/20
AG
It comes back to the original premise of the OP and the implied interpretive view of salvation. We must always guard against personal suppositions we bring with us when we read the scripture. If we come with the idea of guilt, and punishment, we project that on to the text.

But, the scriptures actually don't say anything about original sin as guiltiness. The pivotal concept in the above post is "the guilt of this sin was imputed". That is not in the scriptures, and in fact one of the scriptures referenced there - Romans 5 - says the exact opposite. Adam's guilt wasn't imputed or assigned to anyone apart from their own sin. Death passed to all men, not because Adam sinned, but because all sinned (Romans 5:12). Romans 5:17 doesn't say guilt reigned, but death.

And, in other places the scriptures clearly speak against this idea of imputed guilt (Deuteronomy 24:16, Ezekiel 18:20).

There is a lot to agree on here. That there was a change in mankind's status, in our nature, in our humanity itself - we all agree. And that this impacts every part of our life, and that we all sin - we can all agree, because the scriptures are explicit. The details of this are where we may disagree, and where we should struggle together and inquire, to come to the truth.

Our cultural presuppositions link the ideas of guilt and punishment, so it is no wonder that when we bring this outside concept of imputed guilt to the text, we also bring the foreign concept of punishment with it. And so we then project that even onto the cross, that rather than Christ Jesus defeating death by death, He is punished infinitely for infinite guilt by His own Father. It is a very different image. And, along with that, rather than seeing the Cross as the fulfillment of Passover - the death of the lamb who redeems us out of slavery (we were enslaved to the prince of the world, and death) - the prevailing understanding becomes that of atonement - the lamb who removes the sin from the people.

It's not that atonement isn't correct - it is, and the scriptures speak to it. But it's not the only or even the primary way the scriptures speak about the saving work of Jesus Christ on the Cross. We should understand that like the Israelites in Egypt, we were held captive in sin and death because of the actions of those who came before us, not because of our own guilt - even though our own guilt added sin and death on top of sin and death. But He freed us from this sin and death, and through this we are granted the gift of repentance unto life - to be "restored from all of the things we were not able to be restored from in the Law of Moses" (that is, from the bondage to sin and death).
Reply Quote
3
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
10:45a, 11/3/20
AG
For example, contrast some commentary on Romans 5:12

"For since we have all copied Adam's transgression and thus have all sinned, we have incurred a penalty equal to his."
St Cyril of Alexandria

"Paul inquires as to how death came into the world and why it prevailed. It came in and prevailed through the sin of one man and continued because all have sinned. Thus once Adam fell, even those who had not eaten of the tree became mortal because of him."
St John Chrysostom

"Everyone in the following of Adam has died, because they have all inherited their nature from him. But some have died because they themselves have sinned, while others have died only because of Adam's condemnationfor example, children."
Gennadius of Constantinople

"So that no one can accuse God of injustice, in that we all die because of the fall of Adam, Paul adds: "and so all have sinned." Adam is the origin and the cause of the fact that we have all sinned in imitation of him."
Oecumenius

vs

"Everyone, even little children, have broken God's covenant, not indeed in virtue of any personal action but in virtue of mankind's common origin in that single ancestor in whom all have sinned."

St Augustine of Hippo


And to expand on this, here is the continuatin of St Cyril's commentary.

"(v18) What has Adam's guilt got to do with us? Why are we held responsible for his sin when we were not even born when he committed it? Did not God say: "The parents will not die for the children, nor the children for the parents, but the soul which has sinned, it shall die." How then shall we defend this doctrine? The soul, I say, which has sinned, it shall die. We have become sinners because of Adam's disobedience in the following manner. After he fell into sin and surrendered to corruption, impure lusts invaded the nature of his flesh, and at the same time the evil law of our members was born. For our nature contracted the disease of sin because of the disobedience of one man, that is, Adam, and thus many became sinners. This was not because they sinned along with Adam, because they did not then exist, but because they had the same nature as Adam, which fell under the law of sin. Thus, just as human nature acquired the weakness of corruption in Adam because of disobedience, and evil desires invaded it, so the same nature was later set free by Christ, who was obedient to God the Father and did not commit sin.

(v20) The law entered in so that the many-sided nature of the fall of those who were under the law might be made clear. Nobody could ever be made righteous because of the weakness of human nature. Rather, everyone condemned themselves by their own crimes of transgression. The law came as the revealer of our common weakness, so that the human race would appear even more clearly to need the aid of the medicine of Christ."
St Cyril of Alexandria

And also on verse 18:
"Paul does not mean by this that because one man sinned everybody else had to pay the price for it even though they had not committed the sin, for that would be unjust. Rather he says that from its beginning in Adam humanity derived both its existence and its sinfulness."
Acacius of Caesarea
Reply Quote
3
1 edit
dermdoc
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Zobel • 11:44a, 11/3/20
AG
Agree with your interpretation.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
Cassius
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Serotonin • 6:29p, 11/3/20
Serotonin said:
Can you explain why a finite offense (say, lying to your mother about eating a cookie when you're 6) deserves infinite punishment?


How is sin finite? It always is and can never be undone. It is forever.
Reply Quote
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to AgLiving06 • 6:47p, 11/3/20
AgLiving06 said:
Your kids must be too old for you to remember them as baby's

I think you're maybe mixing thoughts together to derive a conclusion that may or may not actually work out.

First, with respect to newborns, and anyone else, I hope you don't see sin. We are all God's children. I know you don't mean that you look at them and see evil, but it's an important clarification.

Second I don't believe unbaptized babies necessarily go to "hell" either. Like you I have to believe that God has a bigger plan than what you or I could fully understand. However, that does not mean we should delay in baptizing children though. If I parallel it to your profession, you wouldn't delay giving medicine to a child simply because they are a child. In this way God makes a promise in the baptism that we should want for our children asap.

The key point I then want to make is that neither of these are directly related to Original Sin. I really like this concise definition:

"In its ordinary meaning this term does not refer to the origin of sin but to the guilt of Adam's sin imputed to his offspring (hereditary guilt, Ro 5:1219; Eph 2:3) and the corruption of man's nature that occurred when sin entered and which inheres in the human will and inclinations."

I've got 2 boys (2 and 4). I didn't have to teach them to throw a temper tantrum when they don't get their way (because who would). I didn't have to teach them anger or stubbornness or even selfishness. They know what they "want" regardless of whether its good or bad. (I say this as I just had to go make my son unlock the door as he locked my wife and other child out "just because."

Paul would point out that we have all been "slaves to sin" (Romans 6:20). That doesn't necessitate that we are evil, but that we desire things that are the opposite of the love you mentioned. It means that there is a part of us that always resists the "will of God." The part of us that retains corruption of Adam that will finally be removed when we see Jesus again. That is the original sin we talk of.

As Frok and swimmerbabe point out, intuitively we don't need Paul to tell us. We recognize it in ourselves every moment that we live. So we resist and try to focus on Jesus as much as we can, knowing that his death and resurrection will win in the end.


I agree.
Reply Quote
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Cassius • 6:49p, 11/3/20
Cassius said:
Serotonin said:
Can you explain why a finite offense (say, lying to your mother about eating a cookie when you're 6) deserves infinite punishment?


How is sin finite? It always is and can never be undone. It is forever.


If a finite offends another finite then the max penalty , say for murder, is the death penalty. What if a finite murders thousands? Where is the final justice?

I'm not saying that finite man in that situation cannot receive forgiveness. But let's say he rejects forgiveness or has sinned too much and seared his conscience like the man in Pilgrims Progress?

And Zobel...I'M inclined to be partial to this.


"Everyone, even little children, have broken God's covenant, not indeed in virtue of any personal action but in virtue of mankind's common origin in that single ancestor in whom all have sinned."

St Augustine of Hippo
Reply Quote
3 edits
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Patriot101 • 7:18p, 11/3/20
AG
That's fine but St Augustine is talking about the covenant between God and humanity, not God and individual humans. In this regard he is quite a bit closer to St John or St Cyril than he is to some later reformers. The teaching is about our damaged humanity, not an inherited or imputed guilt or personal moral failure. So, if we want to talk about this then we need to talk about how Christ Jesus was the Savior of all mankind, and how He redeemed humanity collectively from bondage to sin and death. If you talk about individuals then you turn to Christ Jesus as the savior of each human in particular, through giving them access to forgiveness of sins by repentance and grace.
Reply Quote
1
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
7:24p, 11/3/20
Yeah. We aren't that far apart.
Reply Quote
swimmerbabe11
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
8:25p, 11/3/20
Even if children throwing a temper tantrums wasn't thing.. the greatest evidence of the presence of sin is death.
If sin wasn't in the world, people wouldn't die. When you go to a Lutheran funeral, they will tell you that the evidence of the person's sin is right there in the casket..the dead body. Unfortunately, we know that infants die, even in the womb. All are sinful...all are effected by disease and death. This is evidence of original sin.
Reply Quote
4
Aggrad08
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 10:24p, 11/3/20
AG
swimmerbabe11 said:
Even if children throwing a temper tantrums wasn't thing.. the greatest evidence of the presence of sin is death.
If sin wasn't in the world, people wouldn't die. When you go to a Lutheran funeral, they will tell you that the evidence of the person's sin is right there in the casket..the dead body. Unfortunately, we know that infants die, even in the womb. All are sinful...all are effected by disease and death. This is evidence of original sin.


Death is billions of years older than human beings. The premise the human sin caused death is one of the few religious dogmas we can scientifically falsify
Reply Quote
1 edit
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
6:54a, 11/4/20
Sin has affected the whole creation was subjected to frustration and it wasn't of its own choice. Look at the parallel as well.

Romans 8:19-23

19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
Reply Quote
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.