All sin is equal. All sin is not equal.

5,342 Views | 127 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by Patriot101
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
2:27p, 10/27/20
If a finite offends and infinite Holy God, even for the most finite of offenses, then the consequence is an infinite punishment apart from Christ. In that sense, all sin is equal.

In another sense, all sin is not equal while on earth.

Feel free to disagree or add to this but there is a reason why we have murder one, murder two, and manslaughter, for instance.

Reply Quote
1 edit
Serotonin
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Patriot101 • 2:32p, 10/27/20
AG
Can you explain why a finite offense (say, lying to your mother about eating a cookie when you're 6) deserves infinite punishment?
Reply Quote
3
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
2:35p, 10/27/20
Even not thanking God for the very breath that we breath deserves an infinite punishment. You see, we are linked to our first parents in original sin.
Reply Quote
Aggrad08
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Patriot101 • 2:36p, 10/27/20
AG
Patriot101 said:
If a finite offends and infinite Holy God, even for the most finite of offenses, then the punishment is an infinite punishment apart from Christ. In that sense, all sin is equal.
The premise simply doesn't follow. There is nothing to say the degree of punishment for a crime is infinite if the "offended" is infinite. In fact it's a much better case to say such a being couldn't be offended at all in any meaningful sense.

Punishment has purposes. To deter, to correct, to protect the public at large. Punishment for vengeance is petty and pathetic, for a human, let alone a god. Infinite punishment isn't required to deter, make it impossible to correct and isn't needed for protection. It's only plausible purpose is retribution. And if retribution is the goal how can an infinite punishment be retribution for a finite crime?
Reply Quote
6
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Aggrad08 • 3:11p, 10/27/20
AG
The whole thing is a mess. Why should we accept that punishment is the necessary and logical response to offense to begin with?
Reply Quote
5
Sub4
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
4:10p, 10/27/20
AG
Insert basic Christian Response

God is Perfect, Holy, and Righteous. Perfection cannot know or be known by imperfection. Sin is objectively bad

Therefore, Sin separates man from God. Separation from God is the best definition of Death. Therefore Death is a required punishment for sin because no God means no life.

This why Christianity is about the restoration to God through the Sacrifice of Jesus who paid that penalty of our sin.

All sin, no matter big or small is what stops us from being in relation with our God. Different Sins certainly have different consequences here on earth, but eternally they are all detrimental.

Reply Quote
8
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Sub4 • 5:42p, 10/27/20
AG
The scriptures never say that death is a required punishment for sin.

Who did Jesus pay this supposed penalty to? The devil? God?
Reply Quote
1
diehard03
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
5:52p, 10/27/20
It's probably far easier for you to just post your already-prepared treatise on why penal substitutionary atonement is false and unsupported by the Church Fathers.

You know you are going to anyway
Reply Quote
1
AggieDub14
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Patriot101 • 6:02p, 10/27/20
AG
Patriot101 said:
If a finite offends and infinite Holy God, even for the most finite of offenses, then the punishment is an infinite punishment apart from Christ. In that sense, all sin is equal.

In another sense, all sin is not equal while on earth.

Feel free to disagree or add to this but there is a reason why we have murder one, murder two, and manslaughter, for instance.



You're logic is flawed. You're equating laws created by man with laws created by God. Murder one, murder two, and manslaughter are crimes in the eyes of men. Men define a difference on severity.
Reply Quote
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to diehard03 • 6:04p, 10/27/20
AG
Nothing wrong with substitution or atonement. It's the punishment that I object to.
Reply Quote
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to AggieDub14 • 6:05p, 10/27/20
AggieDub14 said:
Patriot101 said:
If a finite offends and infinite Holy God, even for the most finite of offenses, then the punishment is an infinite punishment apart from Christ. In that sense, all sin is equal.

In another sense, all sin is not equal while on earth.

Feel free to disagree or add to this but there is a reason why we have murder one, murder two, and manslaughter, for instance.



You're logic is flawed. You're equating laws created by man with laws created by God. Murder one, murder two, and manslaughter are crimes in the eyes of men. Men define a difference on severity.


Right. But who gave us the ability to make such distinctions.

Point is that there are different punishments, even in the Torah. Not all sin is equal.
Reply Quote
Sub4
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Zobel • 6:24p, 10/27/20
AG
Sure they do, Romans 6:23

"For the Wages of Sin is Death but the gift of God is eternal life"
Reply Quote
7
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Sub4 • 6:33p, 10/27/20
AG
Wages are not punishment.
Reply Quote
5
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
6:46p, 10/27/20
Romans 5:
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come."
Reply Quote
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Patriot101 • 6:50p, 10/27/20
AG
Consequence and punishment are not the same thing.
Reply Quote
2
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
6:52p, 10/27/20
Semantics.
Reply Quote
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Patriot101 • 6:54p, 10/27/20
AG
Yes, semantics. Words have meaning, and we should use them correctly. Punishment is vastly different from consequence. God forgives sin. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ was not punishment, but the Great Mercy.
Reply Quote
3
1 edit
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Zobel • 6:57p, 10/27/20
Zobel said:
Yes, semantics. Words have meaning, and we should use them correctly. Punishment is vastly different from consequence. God forgives sin. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ was not punishment, but the Great Mercy.


I disagree. God poured out his full wrath on his own son in order that the believing ones may be saved from the wrath to come.
Reply Quote
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Patriot101 • 6:58p, 10/27/20
AG
Where's that in the scriptures? Why would God be angry with His Son, who was innocent and righteous, and with whom He was well pleased?
Reply Quote
3
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
6:59p, 10/27/20
He became a propitiation. What does that word mean?
Reply Quote
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
7:01p, 10/27/20
"being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God" (Rom. 3:24-25; emphasis added).
Reply Quote
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Patriot101 • 7:03p, 10/27/20
AG
Yes, an atonement and a sacrifice. But not punishment.

Hilasmos is the Greek word for propitiation. The root word is the verb hilaskomai, which means to be merciful or gracious. Hileos means forgiving and merciful.
Reply Quote
2
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
7:04p, 10/27/20
Mercy from what?
Reply Quote
1
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Patriot101 • 7:06p, 10/27/20
AG
From sin of course, and from death which follows. But not from punishment. You'll not find the concept of punishment in the scriptures.

Consider the Good Samaritan. He showed mercy, but there was no punishment involved. We are the man who fell among thieves.
Reply Quote
2
1 edit
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
7:09p, 10/27/20
So just use the word consequence then...

I'm fine with that.
Reply Quote
1 edit
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Patriot101 • 7:12p, 10/27/20
AG
Exactly. And don't use the word punishment, because that is an entirely different concept and idea and carries a connotation which is not scriptural and reflects an image of God that is foreign to the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Reply Quote
1
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
7:13p, 10/27/20


"And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holy of holies; having a golden altar of incense, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was a golden pot holding the manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; and above it cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy-seat; of which things we cannot now speak severally" (Heb. 9:3-5).
Reply Quote
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Patriot101 • 7:26p, 10/27/20
AG
Same word, hilasterion.
Reply Quote
1
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
7:27p, 10/27/20
There I changed the OP word punishment for consequence.
Reply Quote
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Zobel • 7:34p, 10/27/20
Zobel said:
Same word, hilasterion.


Yep.
Reply Quote
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Patriot101 • 7:40p, 10/27/20
AG

Quote:
If a finite offends and infinite Holy God, even for the most finite of offenses, then the consequence is an infinite punishment apart from Christ. In that sense, all sin is equal.
But you see, now that you've correctly identified death as a consequence of sin - and not a punishment imposed by God - the whole thing falls apart. Death is not a punishment, infinite or otherwise.
Reply Quote
1
AggieDub14
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Patriot101 • 7:45p, 10/27/20
AG
Patriot101 said:
AggieDub14 said:
Patriot101 said:
If a finite offends and infinite Holy God, even for the most finite of offenses, then the punishment is an infinite punishment apart from Christ. In that sense, all sin is equal.

In another sense, all sin is not equal while on earth.

Feel free to disagree or add to this but there is a reason why we have murder one, murder two, and manslaughter, for instance.



You're logic is flawed. You're equating laws created by man with laws created by God. Murder one, murder two, and manslaughter are crimes in the eyes of men. Men define a difference on severity.


Right. But who gave us the ability to make such distinctions.

Point is that there are different punishments, even in the Torah. Not all sin is equal.


James 2: 10-11
Reply Quote
1
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Zobel • 7:56p, 10/27/20
Zobel said:

Quote:
If a finite offends and infinite Holy God, even for the most finite of offenses, then the consequence is an infinite punishment apart from Christ. In that sense, all sin is equal.
But you see, now that you've correctly identified death as a consequence of sin - and not a punishment imposed by God - the whole thing falls apart. Death is not a punishment, infinite or otherwise.


Then how will a finite ever pay for his sin apart from Christ in eternity?
Reply Quote
1 edit
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to AggieDub14 • 8:22p, 10/27/20
AggieDub14 said:
Patriot101 said:
AggieDub14 said:
Patriot101 said:
If a finite offends and infinite Holy God, even for the most finite of offenses, then the punishment is an infinite punishment apart from Christ. In that sense, all sin is equal.

In another sense, all sin is not equal while on earth.

Feel free to disagree or add to this but there is a reason why we have murder one, murder two, and manslaughter, for instance.



You're logic is flawed. You're equating laws created by man with laws created by God. Murder one, murder two, and manslaughter are crimes in the eyes of men. Men define a difference on severity.


Right. But who gave us the ability to make such distinctions.

Point is that there are different punishments, even in the Torah. Not all sin is equal.


James 2: 10-11


St. John discusses sins of the body and sins leading to death in the epistle of John. There are sins leading to death and there are sins not leading to death.

I mean...we all die anyway. So what does John mean?

What does death mean there?
Reply Quote
1 edit
Patriot101
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
8:26p, 10/27/20
Here's another question: Kind of related but not exactly

Christ died for all sin. Then what about the Unpardonable Sin or blasphemy against the Holy Spirit ?
Reply Quote
Last Page
Page 1 of 4 ▼
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.