Pope Francis skating in the edge of heresy again

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wbt5845
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9:37a, 10/21/20
AG
Getting tired of this - his personal opinions are irrelevant and he needs to STFU.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/pope-francis-civil-unions/2020/10/21/805a601c-139e-11eb-a258-614acf2b906d_story.html

Quote:
Pope Francis, in a new documentary, has called for the creation of civil union laws for same-sex couples, in what amounts to his clearest support to date for the issue.

In the documentary, according to the Catholic News Agency, Francis says same-sex couples should be "legally covered."

"What we have to create is a civil union law," he said.

Francis has long expressed an interest in outreach to the church's LGBT followers, but his remarks have often stressed general understanding and welcoming rather than substantive policies.

Priests in some parts of the world bless same-sex marriage, but that stance and Francis's new remarks are a departure from official church teaching.
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ramblin_ag02
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9:43a, 10/21/20
AG
Not Catholic so excuse my ignorance. But isn't it literally impossible for the Pope to be heretical? Isn't Church teaching pretty much whatever he says it is? Couldn't he theoretically excommunicate the entire church and be the only Catholic left?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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wbt5845
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 9:46a, 10/21/20
AG
ramblin_ag02 said:
Not Catholic so excuse my ignorance. But isn't it literally impossible for the Pope to be heretical? Isn't Church teaching pretty much whatever he says it is? Couldn't he theoretically excommunicate the entire church and be the only Catholic left?

His comments are only binding as dogma when he speaks ex cathedra. This was just an interview, so there is no obligation to accept them.

That being said, all clergy, up to and including the pope, should speak about matters of faith and morals carefully and in accordance with church teachings to avoid misleading the faithful.
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ramblin_ag02
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In reply to wbt5845 • 9:58a, 10/21/20
AG
Fair enough. Where do papal encyclicals fit in this?
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wbt5845
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10:12a, 10/21/20
AG
Encyclicals are different. Think of them as formal, published homilies. We are obliged to listen and give them consideration. But they also us not dogma and thus not obliged to believe.
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ramblin_ag02
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In reply to wbt5845 • 10:25a, 10/21/20
AG
Thanks for answering my questions
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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BluHorseShu
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 10:43a, 10/21/20
AG
ramblin_ag02 said:
Not Catholic so excuse my ignorance. But isn't it literally impossible for the Pope to be heretical? Isn't Church teaching pretty much whatever he says it is? Couldn't he theoretically excommunicate the entire church and be the only Catholic left?
Have gone from being a member of protestant churches to being Catholic, I still see the Pope as fallible except when speaking ex Cathedra (which I believe there's only been 2 teachings historically). My pastor of the baptist church I grew up attending was viewed somewhat the same, in that most of the congregation believed his interpretation of scripture....until he said something that wasn't supported by it.
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Lyon
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10:50a, 10/21/20
Catholics are supposed to do the following:

1. Obey what the apostolic Church (not the Pope) teaches, always and everywhere.

2. Oppose the Pope when he teaches contrary to what the Church teaches.

Popes come and go but the Church is forever.
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Pet Sounds
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11:28a, 10/21/20
AG
Here we go again. The fake news will only help spread the confusion. It's pretty disheartening to see the Pope not be a clear teacher or correct some of the very liberal bishops. The Catholic Church looks to be following in the same steps of mainline Protestantism.
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AgLiving06
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11:53a, 10/21/20
I think the people I feel the worst for are those catholics who do have same sex attractions, yet have chosen to struggle against it it via celibacy.

This seems like an open invitation to give into those feelings now without fear of repercussion.
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747Ag
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In reply to Pet Sounds • 12:05p, 10/21/20
AG
Pet Sounds said:
Here we go again. The fake news will only help spread the confusion. It's pretty disheartening to see the Pope not be a clear teacher or correct some of the very liberal bishops. The Catholic Church looks to be following in the same steps of mainline Protestantism.
Yeah, but it's not fake... he said it. This isn't Catholicism; it's a different religion.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-calls-for-civil-union-law-for-same-sex-couples-in-shift-from-vatican-stance-12462
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PacifistAg
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12:06p, 10/21/20
AG
Here's a great thread from a celibate lesbian Christian:

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bmks270
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In reply to AgLiving06 • 12:10p, 10/21/20
AG
AgLiving06 said:
I think the people I feel the worst for are those catholics who do have same sex attractions, yet have chosen to struggle against it it via celibacy.

This seems like an open invitation to give into those feelings now without fear of repercussion.


So Catholic priests?
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747Ag
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In reply to PacifistAg • 12:11p, 10/21/20
AG
PacifistAg said:
Here's a great thread from a celibate lesbian Christian:

No, it's not about marriage. However, he is giving assent to grave sin.
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bmks270
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12:12p, 10/21/20
AG
There is a distinction between civil laws and the church doctrine. So which is the Pope reflecting on here?
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PacifistAg
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In reply to bmks270 • 12:14p, 10/21/20
AG
bmks270 said:
There is a distinction between civil laws and the church doctrine. So which is the Pope reflecting on here?
Seems like he's talking about civil laws, and he's right with regards to civil laws. In reality, I don't think there needs to be a different term for the civil act (marriage vs civil union). Call them all civil unions, or call them all marriage. Doesn't matter. The state should not be free to discriminate though.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to bmks270 • 12:29p, 10/21/20
bmks270 said:
There is a distinction between civil laws and the church doctrine. So which is the Pope reflecting on here?
The Pope rules the Vatican City State. If he wants homosexual civil unions, then by all means allow them within your borders.
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chimpanzee
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12:59p, 10/21/20
Let me know when we get the all clear to eat meat on Fridays.
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jrico2727
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1:01p, 10/21/20
AG
Today's Gospel seems appropriate.

Gospel
LK 12:39-48
Jesus said to his disciples:
"Be sure of this:
if the master of the house had known the hour
when the thief was coming,
he would not have let his house be broken into.
You also must be prepared,
for at an hour you do not expect, the Son of Man will come."
Then Peter said,
"Lord, is this parable meant for us or for everyone?"
And the Lord replied,
"Who, then, is the faithful and prudent steward
whom the master will put in charge of his servants
to distribute the food allowance at the proper time?
Blessed is that servant whom his master on arrival finds doing so.
Truly, I say to you, he will put him
in charge of all his property.
But if that servant says to himself,
'My master is delayed in coming,'
and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants,
to eat and drink and get drunk,
then that servant's master will come
on an unexpected day and at an unknown hour
and will punish the servant severely
and assign him a place with the unfaithful.
That servant who knew his master's will
but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will
shall be beaten severely;
and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will
but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating
shall be beaten only lightly.
Much will be required of the person entrusted with much,
and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more."
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AGC
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In reply to PacifistAg • 2:03p, 10/21/20
AG
Just gonna edit to say she's all in on Crit Theory so that's to be remember when reading the thread.
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747Ag
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In reply to AGC • 2:13p, 10/21/20
AG
AGC said:
Just gonna edit to say she's all in on Crit Theory so that's to be remember when reading the thread.
Regardless, this is more weaponized ambiguity.
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chimpanzee
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2:32p, 10/21/20
Does this qualify as his response on the McCarrick matter?
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AgLiving06
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In reply to bmks270 • 2:45p, 10/21/20
bmks270 said:
AgLiving06 said:
I think the people I feel the worst for are those catholics who do have same sex attractions, yet have chosen to struggle against it it via celibacy.

This seems like an open invitation to give into those feelings now without fear of repercussion.

So Catholic priests?

No I suspect the argument would be that Catholic priests are held to a higher standard and are therefore exempt from this (though with this Pope I do wonder).

but there is a whole movement within Catholicism to be celibate with same sex attraction. There's a guy who really promotes and does the Catholic podcast circuits talking about it.
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RAB91
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2:46p, 10/21/20
Thank goodness for leaders like Bishop Strickland.

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RAB91
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2:52p, 10/21/20
From Bishop Tobin

Quote:
The Holy Father's apparent support for the recognition of civil unions for same-sex couples needs to be clarified. The Pope's statement clearly contradicts what has been the long-standing teaching of the Church about same-sex unions. The Church cannot support the acceptance of objectively immoral relationships. Individuals with same-sex attraction are beloved children of God and must have their personal human rights and civil rights recognized and protected by law. However, the legalization of their civil unions, which seek to simulate holy matrimony, is not admissible.
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747Ag
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In reply to RAB91 • 2:57p, 10/21/20
AG
RAB91 said:
From Bishop Tobin
Quote:
The Holy Father's apparent support for the recognition of civil unions for same-sex couples needs to be clarified. The Pope's statement clearly contradicts what has been the long-standing teaching of the Church about same-sex unions. The Church cannot support the acceptance of objectively immoral relationships. Individuals with same-sex attraction are beloved children of God and must have their personal human rights and civil rights recognized and protected by law. However, the legalization of their civil unions, which seek to simulate holy matrimony, is not admissible.
Good on +Tobin... but will this be another instance of the Holy Father "not saying[sic] one word"?
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swimmerbabe11
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In reply to PacifistAg • 5:03p, 10/21/20
She is a super fascinating follow.

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Scoopen Skwert
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In reply to Lyon • 5:11p, 10/21/20
AG
Holy Mother Church has stood the ages despite the best efforts of the popes and cardinals.
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Scoopen Skwert
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In reply to RAB91 • 5:13p, 10/21/20
AG
What is the matter with civil Unions?

They are not the sacrament of matrimony.

Homosexuals are sinning only during the homosexual act. Correct?
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wbt5845
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In reply to Scoopen Skwert • 5:29p, 10/21/20
AG
bh93 said:
What is the matter with civil Unions?

They are not the sacrament of matrimony.

Homosexuals are sinning only during the homosexual act. Correct?

An irrelevant rabbit hole.

What is wrong is the pope giving creedance to an idea that is inherently flawed and sinful. Because of his position, he needs to be more careful in keeping his personal opinion separate from his pastoral obligation to preach the Gospel.
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Scoopen Skwert
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In reply to wbt5845 • 6:19p, 10/21/20
AG
I talked it out with my wife just a bit ago.

My logic was that we know the church calls premarital sex a sin. It also doesn't do anything to promote premarital sex and strongly discourages it.

That line of thinking needs to be applied to homosexual sex.

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Bird Poo
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6:26p, 10/21/20
AG
Indeed. It cheapens the sacrament.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 8:51p, 10/21/20
AG
swimmerbabe11 said:
She is a super fascinating follow.


Oh she's great! She's one of my favorite people to follow. I actually got to speak with her for about an hour before.
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chimpanzee
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In reply to wbt5845 • 8:10a, 10/22/20
wbt5845 said:
bh93 said:
What is the matter with civil Unions?

They are not the sacrament of matrimony.

Homosexuals are sinning only during the homosexual act. Correct?

An irrelevant rabbit hole.

What is wrong is the pope giving creedance to an idea that is inherently flawed and sinful. Because of his position, he needs to be more careful in keeping his personal opinion separate from his pastoral obligation to preach the Gospel.
The document tweeted by Bishop Strickland goes into the issue at great length. One can certainly disagree with it if you're not a follower of the Magesterium, but it's cohesive with doctrine, comprehensive and clear. Francis takes something like that and waves it aside.

Remember the faculty purge from the Institute for Marriage and Family?

In any case, some fairly large majority of people in the pews do not believe in the real presence in the Eucharist, it follows that not even the Pope himself believes much of what passes for doctrine.
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chimpanzee
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8:44a, 10/22/20
Here's Phil Lawler's take, a very good distillation of why its an issue among Catholics and the source/validity of the very detailed and specific doctrine.

Quote:
By the way, why did the Pope say that "we have to create" civil unions, when civil unions are already recognized in Italy, and most of the neighboring European countries have taken the next step and legalized same-sex marriage? Ten years ago, when he proposed civil unions as a compromise, we might have questioned his political acumen. Today the impact of the papal statement is considerably more damaging. He is, in effect, relinquishing any claim to territory that the opposing forces have already occupiedand thus creating new obstacles for any Catholics who seek to regain that territory in the future.

Surely Pope Francis knew, when he made this statement, what sort of reaction it would cause. Why did he make the statement, then? Again and again he has made statements which, if they do not flatly contradict Catholic doctrine, undoubtedly shake public confidence in the permanent teaching. It is increasingly difficult to avoid the conclusion that this Pope wants to cause confusion.
Lawler is trying to be charitable here. Francis said he wanted to "make a mess" in the church, it seemed a plausible call to making bold yet uncomfortable and necessary reforms. It seems he meant it rather more literally.

This issue hits on the broader authority over detailed dogma, which is a really large part of the reason there are Nicene Creed professing Christians with whom the RCC doesn't share communion. It's the old, "can the Pope be a heretic?" question.
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