Fratelli tutti issued on October 3rd.

Starting to read my way through the document and will post some highlights for discussion. One that has already caught my attention is his exposition on the parable of the Good Samaritan (chapter 2) ... boom! Relates this to immigration and fiscal policy.


+pablo

I actually started reading this last night.

The question that came to mind after about 10 minutes of reading is what differences, if any, you might find in this document vs what might have been written by progressive Protestant clergy in 1960 or secular humanists today. Or, to state it a different way, what makes this document Catholic and not Progressive or Protestant or Humanist?

And FYI I don't mean that in a pejorative way, it is just interesting to note the alignment.

http://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20201003_enciclica-fratelli-tutti.html

Word Cloud of FRATELLI TUTTI... Our Blessed Lord's name is mentioned 33 times out of 43000+ words. What are the two greatest commandments again?

Have not read Fratelli Tutti as of yet, essay on the encyclical:

Breathing Fire
by Robert Royal - The Catholic Thing

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Word Cloud of FRATELLI TUTTI... Our Blessed Lord's name is mentioned 33 times out of 43000+ words. What are the two greatest commandments again?

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It's your faith and your business but if this is the critique of something my pastor put out, I would caution myself that he's trying to instruct something that's lacking.

I would say our current cultural climate is highlighting how much we are not loving our neighbors as ourselves.

diehard03 said:

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Word Cloud of FRATELLI TUTTI... Our Blessed Lord's name is mentioned 33 times out of 43000+ words. What are the two greatest commandments again?

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It's your faith and your business but if this is the critique of something my pastor put out, I would caution myself that he's trying to instruct something that's lacking.

I would say our current cultural climate is highlighting how much we are not loving our neighbors as ourselves.

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Valid point. However, it's a general trend in our church leadership, save for a few examples. Moreover, looking at the culture around me, I can't help but think that our leadership has inverted these two commandments. Looking at the culture around me, looking at the Church, and looking at myself... I wonder how many people know Him and love Him with their heart, mind, and soul. The second flows from the first, not the other way around. So, I see a trend of a declining Church with emphases on environmentalism, anti-racism, and solidarity with the vulnerable, with rarely a peep about being a disciple of Jesus Christ.

Zobel said:

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only when our economic and social system no longer produces even a single victim, a single person cast aside, will we be able to celebrate the feast of universal fraternity

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Yikes. I thought the feast of universal fraternity was celebrated every day at the altar.

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Is this a quote from the encyclical? What utter communist drivel.

FalconAg06 said:

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The modern church has embraced the corporal works of mercy and it practically ends there.

No need for conversion, repentance, mortification, abstinence, etc etc.

We've become a world-wide rotary club

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Same for Protestants, unfortunately.

Hit the nail on the head. This is why I believe Protestants and Catholics have to stick together and put aside our differences. We've been under such constant attack by the secular world, pastors/clergy within our own ranks are starting to come out of the woodwork comfortably in its favor....

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Word Cloud of FRATELLI TUTTI... Our Blessed Lord's name is mentioned 33 times out of 43000+ words. What are the two greatest commandments again?

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Qualify with saying I haven't read the document. With that acknowledged, the pope has been focusing a lot lately on how the world is corrupting the fundamental truths of what it means to be human. Thus, the fact that "human" is the most prominent word is not necessarily a bad thing or a sign of failure to witness.

I would refer you to several articles and talks from Bishop Barron on this: it is not possible to love God unless we love what he created--i.e., our incredibly flawed and failure-prone human brothers and sisters. Francis Cardinal George said: "It is impossible to evangelize something unless you love it." So, if you hate and detest all elements of the culture, you will not be able to witness Christ crucified and risen to it. Dig in, pray, and find the evidence of the working of the Holy Spirit. Even if mankind turned away completely and willingly, God would remain faithful.

And, with charity, try not to be like most of us who consider ourselves orthodox Catholic who act remarkably spoiled. We had an apostolic, prophetic witness in the barque of Peter in St. John Paul--truly, "a pope from Galilee." Now, we have a less talented, more limited shepherd. Pray for him--for wisdom, courage, strength, and holiness. And pray that we call gain a deeper appreciation for the extraordinary blessings in certain moments rather than constantly demanding more, more, more. That command from humans seems like an inappropriate attitude with which to approach the God who is Being and Goodness itself.

Maybe this is just my bias, but does anyone find this Pope to be particularly obsessed with the United States specifically? For someone who is the global leader of Catholocism and understood by some to be the global leader of Christianity, this Pope seems entirely focused on the US. His encyclicals seem targeted to Americans primarily and to a lesser extent the Catholics of Western Europe.

Now I'm as quick to criticize the US as anyone, but on a relative scale we are light years ahead of most of the world when it comes to standard of living, charitable giving, and human rights. Seems like an odd choice given the struggles of Christianity on a global scale

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Maybe this is just my bias, but does anyone find this Pope to be particularly obsessed with the United States specifically? For someone who is the global leader of Catholocism and understood by some to be the global leader of Christianity, this Pope seems entirely focused on the US. His encyclicals seem targeted to Americans primarily and to a lesser extent the Catholics of Western Europe.

Now I'm as quick to criticize the US as anyone, but on a relative scale we are light years ahead of most of the world when it comes to standard of living, charitable giving, and human rights. Seems like an odd choice given the struggles of Christianity on a global scale

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I find the Holy Father to be obsessed with the USA.

XUSCR said:

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I've already read the Communist Manifesto. Can I really expect much in this case from Francis that I haven't read there or in the NYT?

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Can't even call him Pope Francis, I see.

I read the same letter and came away with a much different understanding.

FalconAg06 said:

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The modern church has embraced the corporal works of mercy and it practically ends there.

No need for conversion, repentance, mortification, abstinence, etc etc.

We've become a world-wide rotary club

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Yes - he gives a particular extended example with the Good Samaritan. Talk is cheap.

Ol_Ag_02 said:

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Zobel said:

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only when our economic and social system no longer produces even a single victim, a single person cast aside, will we be able to celebrate the feast of universal fraternity

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Yikes. I thought the feast of universal fraternity was celebrated every day at the altar.

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Is this a quote from the encyclical? What utter communist drivel.

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For me personally - I read this as a confirmation of what I have come to understand through my faith formation since the mid-90's. It is about the whole person, the whole garment, going farther by sharing our talent, time, and treasure. So many just go through the motions but will not really "give" from their heart.

Does God not want the same? That we are all each other's keeper.

This is not a communist ideal - but a Godly vision of heaven on earth. I guess for some, they just say it as part of the Our Father, but for me, it rings hollow to say "thy will be done" then support leaders that say "America First."

I always thought that was the dead give away for many, when we know Jesus would not say the same words.

It's a deep dive for sure into hypocrisy. He spends a good about of time on the parable of the Good Samaritan. If that challenges your world view - it should.

Having read a few encyclicals by different popes over the years, I would wish for them to stop writing these things the way they do. So often they make claim after claim without supporting argument or evidence.

I give the popes the benefit of the doubt. They speak to the way things should be, even if they are impractical.

I personally hate capitalism, reducing the worth of a worker to their efficiency is absolutely contrary to Catholic teaching.

I have found no other economic model that works. It seems the best we can hope for is a market oriented economy with a large safety net.

Zobel said:

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Capitalism is freedom. It is simply allowing individuals to determine for themselves the value of their own time. It has nothing to do with reducing a persons value to efficiency.

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Very underrated post.

+infinity

Zobel said:

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Capitalism is freedom. It is simply allowing individuals to determine for themselves the value of their own time. It has nothing to do with reducing a persons value to efficiency.

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The devil is always in the details. No manner of theory of market efficiencies can morally justify the manner in which Ebenezer Scrooge treats Bob Cratchit. I understand the academic argument for paying people in dangerous working conditions pennies an hour and selling the fruit of their labor for 900% profit, but a moral case cannot be made, regardless of whether they wouldn't do the job if it wasn't beneficial to them.

Selling a glass of water to a man who is dying of dehydration for the sum of his life savings may ensure that scarce resources are allocated to where they're needed most, but it's avarice, regardless of what Adam Smith has to say.

I do agree that this line of thinking is more of a symptom of what ails us than the cause, but it is important none the less.

Zobel said:

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You're mixing at matching. Writ large, individual freedom to make decisions is not only the best way to allocate resources, it is also the only way that doesn't carry moral hazards.

It is just as wrong for a person to extort someone - if indeed that's what we want to call it - as it is to forcibly take from one to give to another. The cure for greed is not confiscation, it's charity.

Governments cannot have charity, because they have nothing to give that is their own.

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I disagree, but its an unpopular stance to take post enlightenment. I think we've become too atomized, with too much emphasis placed on individualism at the expense of communal sacrifice. Society is oriented to the family, a nation should be a family of families, with a father figure at the head, whether a king or president.

I do not believe it unjust or immoral to demand sacrifice of one for the benefit of another, within reason.

I would much rather live in a Conservative socialist society than a Progressive Capitalist society.

Zobel said:

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Well, that's dumb.

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Sorry I just don't have enough interest to overcome Brandolini's law.