I trust Orthodox theology a lot - Page 2

Zobel

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In reply to AgLiving06 • 3:53p, 10/18/20

AG

There's some confusion in your tenses. You keep speaking of salvation past tense: "salvation was earned" "after salvation is achieved" "salvation was achieved".

But the scriptures don't exclusively speak of salvation is past tense. St Paul uses past, present, and future tense for the verb to be saved. I showed you examples of the present tense - being saved, and the future tense we can see for example will be saved in Romans 5:9-10.

You're talking about credit, merit, earning, whatever. I'm not. Salvation is an event that happened on the cross - the mighty act that the Lord performed with His own arm, trampling down death by death, becoming the firstborn of the dead, delivering us from hades, granting the world the Great Mercy. He "trod the winepress alone" as Isaiah 63:3 says. So this manner of speaking is perfectly correct, and of course we see St Paul speak of it in this.

But we participate in this saving once for all sacrifice, in our lives, day by day. This is why St Paul, St Luke, speaks of salvation as a thing which has occurred, is occurring, and will occur in the future. We were saved by Christ's trampling down of death through His Resurrection. We are being saved through the work of the holy Spirit. And we will be saved when He comes again.

Not because we have earned it, or merited it, or did it apart from Christ, or apart from the Cross. It is because He works in us, and with us, we are God's synergoi, as St Paul puts it. Salvation is "faith working through love." What we do matters. This is why St Paul can just as easily speak of the saints as those who have been saved as warn them - if you do these things you "will not inherit the Kingdom". Or exhort them to say - "God is not mocked, for whatever a person sows, that he will also reap" and "we will reap if we do not lose heart."

We will be saved at the judgment, as St Paul teaches, when each one receives good or evil according to what we have done (2 Cor 5:10). How is a person saved? Through keeping the commandments, says the Lord (Matthew 19:16-19). How will we be judged in the end? By our acts (Matthew 7:21, 7:26, 25:40; John 5:28-29).

Acknowledging that we are being saved, through our co-working with the Holy Spirit who continuously gives us grace, in no way diminishes or takes away from the salvation achieved by Christ Jesus on the cross.

You speak of what separates those who are perishing and those who are alive? The scriptures are quite clear on this point. It is not merely that Christ died on the cross - because He died for all (2 Cor 5:14-15) - but not all are living. Narrowing salvation to ONLY the cross, ignores the ongoing work of the Spirit.

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AgLiving06

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In reply to Zobel • 8:34p, 10/19/20

First I want to point out that you don't seem to question any of my responses, and instead keep moving on. I'll take that as confirmation.

Quote:
There's some confusion in your tenses. You keep speaking of salvation past tense: "salvation was earned" "after salvation is achieved" "salvation was achieved".

Salvation is in fact in past tense. That doesn't mean we don't receive it each day and need to endure in faith.

Quote:
But the scriptures don't exclusively speak of salvation is past tense. St Paul uses past, present, and future tense for the verb to be saved. I showed you examples of the present tense - being saved, and the future tense we can see for example will be saved in Romans 5:9-10.

I don't think Romans 5:9-10 says what you want it to say. I'll again not take a verse or 2, but the whole section

"6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation."

Paul seems rather clear that Jesus died for the sinners in the past tense and that it is now because of His blood that we are justified, again in past tense.

If your contention is that we will face future judgement upon our death or return of Jesus, whichever comes first, than absolutely. So we live our lives based on the promise that when our time comes we will be judged blameless, not because of what we did, but because of the faith we had in Jesus. However, this doesn't mean we can't lose that faith. You know enough about Lutheranism to know it's not once saved, always saved, so not sure why you keep trying to go down this pathway.

Quote:
You're talking about credit, merit, earning, whatever. I'm not. Salvation is an event that happened on the cross - the mighty act that the Lord performed with His own arm, trampling down death by death, becoming the firstborn of the dead, delivering us from hades, granting the world the Great Mercy. He "trod the winepress alone" as Isaiah 63:3 says. So this manner of speaking is perfectly correct, and of course we see St Paul speak of it in this.

This was literally my contention that you disagreed with. Odd you try to spin the claim that it's yours.

Quote:
But we participate in this saving once for all sacrifice, in our lives, day by day. This is why St Paul, St Luke, speaks of salvation as a thing which has occurred, is occurring, and will occur in the future. We were saved by Christ's trampling down of death through His Resurrection. We are being saved through the work of the holy Spirit. And we will be saved when He comes again.

Participate? No I don't think so. None of the verses you've provided show any participation.

What Paul does in fact say is

Ephesians 2:10: "10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

So do we "participate in this sacrifice?" Not according to Paul. This would be like saying a car earns something because it "participates" in driving down the road. That of course wouldn't make any sense.

Quote:
You speak of what separates those who are perishing and those who are alive? The scriptures are quite clear on this point. It is not merely that Christ died on the cross - because He died for all (2 Cor 5:14-15) - but not all are living. Narrowing salvation to ONLY the cross, ignores the ongoing work of the Spirit.

Oh this is a really dangerous statement. Are you now going to claim that Jesus death was not enough? None of what you've provided makes the claim that the Holy Spirit helps us achieve additional salvation. Certainly the Holy Spirit helps to sustain/grow the faith we have, but that is leaps and bounds different than your claim.

But secondary, nowhere did I say that Christ died for some, not all. Again, you know I'm lutheran and know that's not an argument I'd make. It does make these discussions a bit tedious when you make claims that I know you know aren't what I'm saying. I could respond that since you believe Jesus died for all, you must be a universalist and maybe believe more of what David Bentley Hart has said, but I doubt that's correct.

Instead, I'll say that there is a massive chasm between saying that Jesus died for all, though some will resist and die vs Jesus died for some.

Zobel

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In reply to AgLiving06 • 11:37p, 10/19/20

AG

Quote:
Paul seems rather clear that Jesus died for the sinners in the past tense and that it is now because of His blood that we are justified, again in past tense.

Why do you ignore that while justified is in past tense, he says shall be saved twice in the same passage? You're stuck on justified = saved, but this verse shows that isn't correct.

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This was literally my contention that you disagreed with. Odd you try to spin the claim that it's yours.

It's called agreeing. I was agreeing with you.

Quote:
Participate? No I don't think so. None of the verses you've provided show any participation.

...

So do we "participate in this sacrifice?" Not according to Paul. This would be like saying a car earns something because it "participates" in driving down the road. That of course wouldn't make any sense.

The word communion means to partake of, to share with, to participate in. But there's plenty of explicit participatory language in the scriptures.

Is not the cup of blessing that we bless a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?...Consider the people of Israel: Are not those who eat the sacrifices fellow partakers in the altar?

And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.

We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection.

I want to know Christ and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to Him in His death, in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church.

Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?

Therefore I urge you, brothers, on account of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

As I said before, the problem is the exclusive nature of your interpretation. Salvation includes but is not limited to justification, and we in our lives as Christians through the power of the Holy Spirit participate in His body, in His suffering, in His death, and in His resurrection. It's ALL part of salvation.

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Oh this is a really dangerous statement. Are you now going to claim that Jesus death was not enough? None of what you've provided makes the claim that the Holy Spirit helps us achieve additional salvation. Certainly the Holy Spirit helps to sustain/grow the faith we have, but that is leaps and bounds different than your claim......etc

I did not say that Jesus died for some, or that there is "additional salvation." There is only one salvation, but we cannot say that it ONLY involves the cross, because the scriptures tell us that not everyone will be counted among the living but the cross was once for all, and for all mankind, and for the sin of the world.

Salvation is everything - as we say in our Liturgy, "Having in remembrance, therefore, this saving commandment [of communion] and all those things which have come to pass for us: the Cross, the Grave, the Resurrection on the third day, the Ascension into heaven, the Sitting at the right hand, and the second and glorious Coming." Or, as St Luke puts it in Acts, the Cross and Resurrection and the Gospel accounts are "about all that Jesus began to do and to teach," but they are not the end. He continues His work, through His Spirit, to this day. Salvation flows from the Cross, and it is the only way men may be reconciled to God. But it is wrong to say that nothing else is needed than the Cross; this is to say the Spirit is not needed, not baptism, not the Eucharist, not repentance. And this makes the scripture a confusion and contradictory.

Are they made possible by the Cross, the Passover of the Lord? Yes! Are they part of it? Yes! Does the work of the Spirit fulfil these things in us, compel us, bring us to the Cross, give us grace to "reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ"? Yes, absolutely.

I am curious, if salvation is absolutely, unequivocally, irrevocably a past-tense event, why is the scripture full of present tense and future tense use of the verb to be saved?

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Zobel

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8:06a, 10/20/20

AG

Here's the long and short of it.

It is scriptural to speak of salvation in the past tense. On this we agree.

It is also scriptural to speak of salvation as a present tense, ongoing event, as well as an event that will happen or culminate in the future. (St Paul even speaks of justification in the future tense).

So it is not scriptural then to say that salvation is only or exclusively past tense.

"Salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed."

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AgLiving06

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In reply to Zobel • 6:34p, 10/20/20

Zobel said:
Here's the long and short of it.

It is scriptural to speak of salvation in the past tense. On this we agree.

It is also scriptural to speak of salvation as a present tense, ongoing event, as well as an event that will happen or culminate in the future. (St Paul even speaks of justification in the future tense).

So it is not scriptural then to say that salvation is only or exclusively past tense.

"Salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed."

Yes I can agree with all of this, but that's not been the issue. I already pointed out in my last post, that "once saved, always saved" is not correct or biblical.

The issue you gloss over was your attempts to shift our participating in the good works we were created for (Ephesians 2:10, which you oddly removed in your response), to somehow saying that participation is in our salvation.

Romans 3:23-26

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his bloodto be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus

Paul does not tie our justification to any sort of participation, but to something freely given by God to those who have faith.

But as I showed above, Ephesians 2:10 clearly shows that with that faith, we do good works because that's what God created us for. So to not participate in the faith is to not have faith (as James points out), but that is leaps and bounds different than participating in our salvation.

Finally, and it's becoming an odd trend of you using a single verse out of context to prove your point. You're certainly more knowledgable than that.

'8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

11 Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. 12 The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires."

In context, this has very little to do with participating in our salvation, and far more to do with Paul trying to convince people not continue to be slaves to their flesh. To actually let the Holy Spirit in to help us do the good works we were created to do.

Sb1540

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In reply to AgLiving06 • 9:08p, 10/21/20

AgLiving06 said:
Redstone said:
An argument on that point would fracture in the typical Catholic / Protestant way we see on this board all the time, so I'll just note salvation as a process of continuous receiving grace by faith was the view of all Christians - and I do mean very literally almost all - for about 1,500 years.....as well as being the view of the Church who gave us their product the Bible, codified after 3 centuries of contentious debate and much prayer.

This isn't a Catholic/Protestant argument.

You note that salvation is a continuous process of receiving grace by faith? The cause of the entire process is the death and resurrection of Jesus. Without it, there's no effect. We can do nothing. However, because of that event, we can be renewed daily, we chose to resist that salvation, but nowhere in this did we play a part in our salvation.

This to me is the fatal flaw of Pelagianism, Sam-Pelagianism, or synergist salvation. They gloss over Jesus in favor of man.

And finally, it's not true that this has been the way for 1500 years. St. Augustine would not have supported that thought and his pupil Prosper clearly spoke out against it as well.

St. Augustine was very much in the minority on this topic. Although he is a saint in the East, we did not accept his view on salvation. There are some videos/podcasts that explain this process. One is a series from Ancient Faith called " The Crisis of Western Christendom: The Curse of Anthropological Pessimism" I think it's a six part series. This will go over St. Augustines view that bled through the Catholic Church to Luther. Another is a neuroscientist named John Vervaeke And his series is called "Awakening from the Meaning Crisis". I would check out episodes 19-21. It outlines Augustines, Luther's, and Galileos worldview and the setup of narcissism.

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AgLiving06

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In reply to Sb1540 • 3:48p, 10/22/20

I think it's a fair statement that you made that we need to recognize the doctrinal differences between the east and the west on topics such as this.

However, since Redstone is taking the Catholic position, the view of the east, while interesting, may not be as applicable to the discussion.

However, if the desire is to talk about the differences between the east/west and someone like St. John Cassians and St. Augustine/Prosper, that's a very different discussion.