Wanted to have a discussion about Jesus coming back since we are called to watch for His return.

I found this youtube series very interesting.

I agree with his approach to interpreting scripture. You must look at verses, context and other places in the Bible for clarity at times.

Video is thorough but painfully slow.

Ya I was impressed with his interpretation. Never heard the resurrections and harvests explained fully like he did. It is a bit slow, great for driving listening.

I hear ya, theres a LOT of information out there on the subject. We are called to watch for His return Amos says the Lord does nothing without first telling his prophets, and we see in Daniel and Revelation that portions of their prophecy are seal up until the end generation...

Soo all that being said I believe as daunting a task as it may be I think its worth wading through.

Ok but Jesus is coming back at some point.

Jesus admonishes the jews of the time for not knowing His coming. Im not worried, want to talk about it.

Luke 12:54-56

Quote:

---

54 He also said to the crowds, "When you see a cloud rising in the west, you say at once, 'A shower is coming.' And so it happens. 55 And when you see the south wind blowing, you say, 'There will be scorching heat,' and it happens. 56 You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of earth and sky, but why do you not know how to interpret the present time?

---

Seems to me they should have known He was the messiah based on signs given to them. Could be wrong but seeing how we are called to watch and He gives us signs to His coming again we should be looking for those signs and interpreting the times?

Twice now the left behind has been mentioned. I fear it has done more harm than good. Seems to have put people off from studying His return.

I do believe there will be a rapture because of the feast of trumpets and because of the harvest analogy and Paul's writings. However over the course of my life my thoughts and opinions on that subject have changed multiple times. I am not dogmatic but still enjoy studying and "watching".

Here's a good page on the Orthodox view of the rapture: https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/timeeternal/rapture-orthodox-understanding-infographic/

Thanks I will check it out. Do you ascribe to this viewpoint?

Yukon Cornelius said:

---

Luke 12:54-56

Quote:

---

54 He also said to the crowds, "When you see a cloud rising in the west, you say at once, 'A shower is coming.' And so it happens. 55 And when you see the south wind blowing, you say, 'There will be scorching heat,' and it happens. 56 You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of earth and sky, but why do you not know how to interpret the present time?

---

Seems to me they should have known He was the messiah based on signs given to them. Could be wrong but seeing how we are called to watch and He gives us signs to His coming again we should be looking for those signs and interpreting the times?

---

Exactly. He is saying they do not recognize Him among them.

Yes

Pretty hard to ignore scriptures related to the Rapture (harpazo in Greek)
1 Thess 4: 16-19
Luke 17:34-37
Revelation 3:10
Mark 13:32
Matt 24: 29-41
Daniel 12:1-2

And it is difficult to ignore the alignment of the church with the Roman government once Christians rose to prominence in the Empire, so naturally they became interested in the kingdom here on the earth as opposed to placing their hope (Paul called it that) in the return of Jesus to redeem all things and establish His justice. I think Lindsey missed the boat with his emphasis on a strictly European antichrist.

Good stuff.

Agree. Below sure sounds like a rapture to me. Not sure how else to interpret it.

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Very good message. Thanks.

To heaven until heaven and earth are remade?

Based on your readings who or what do you ascribe this to?

I can't remember where but I've read that St Augustine brought a Platonic view of heaven/hell into Western Christianity which heavily influenced RCC theology and Protestantism afterwards. But I haven't read the source material and a google search can prove anything, so would love to hear your thoughts on that.

Not sure which part specifically you mean. The pagan philosophers like Plato in particular taught a kind of dualism. Many pagan religions taught that material / flesh was bad and when you died you "escaped" into a higher kind of being that was pure spirit. Look at Acts 8 where the Epicurians and Stoics argue against St Paul on this point. Plato called the body the prison of the soul. You can even see some of this in other Eastern religions. Christianity teaches a bodily resurrection, it is a fundamental point of the faith. Many gnostic sects taught against this - it's partly the reason they abstained from the Eucharist, or rejected other aspects of orthodox Christianity. They refused to believe that God could become man, or that He would take Flesh, or whatever.

I think St Augustine affirmed this too - there's a famous quote from him that says "No doctrine of the Christian Faith is so vehemently and so obstinately opposed as the doctrine of the resurrection of the flesh."

I really enjoyed N T Wright's book on this, Surprised by Hope. In my experience, most Protestant churches do a very poor job about teaching the bodily resurrection and the creation of the New Jerusalem here on earth.

The biggest question for me is what happens after we die until Christ returns and we are resurrected with new bodies. I personally believe we are in a joyful, peaceful kind of soul sleep until our resurrection.

Thanks for the reply, I'll have to see if I can find the original statement.

Jesus will not come back. Because Jesus never came in the first place. That is, a Greek Jesus who violated the Sabbath, waived away the law against adultery, declared all foods clean and taught against many other of His father's Laws never existed.

However, A Torah observant Jew named Yeshua came, and He will return again keeping His Torah.

Zobel said:

---

I think you need to start with a scriptural view of what the life of the world to come actually is. Then you can understand passages like 1 Thes 4:16 in context.

The modern pop theology of "going to heaven" is distressingly similar to pagan dualism. The scriptures teach bodily resurrection and a new heavens and new earth here, a complete rejuvenation of the good creation. Not escaping this world for a disembodied heavenly experience "somewhere else."

So where would we be raptured "to"?

---

Revelation 5:9-10:

Those redeemed from every tribe and tongue will rule as kings and priests upon the earth. Enoch describes the Lord ascending from Heaven accompanied by legions of His holy ones.

dermdoc said:

---

I really enjoyed N T Wright's book on this, Surprised by Hope. In my experience, most Protestant churches do a very poor job about teaching the bodily resurrection and the creation of the New Jerusalem here on earth.

The biggest question for me is what happens after we die until Christ returns and we are resurrected with new bodies. I personally believe we are in a joyful, peaceful kind of soul sleep until our resurrection.

---

Most Protestant churches and most Christians in general seem to believe in their is soul residing in paradise based on the thief on the cross verse. When in reality the NT only points to bodily resurrection save perhaps this verse.

This isn't terribly comforting compared to immediate reward so the other belief seems to have much more traction despite the absence in scripture.

That verse is a bit more interesting to me if we actually translate "paradeiso" as garden instead of transliterating it. The same word is used in the Septuagint for the garden of Eden. I think Eden is the biblical image of heaven - a pre-lapse state.