Houston religious landscape changes since 1982

4,340 Views | 66 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by Buck Turgidson
ramblin_ag02
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AG
Zobel said:

Obviously your latter point is true. That's not really the question though. It's - does a person benefit from some sort of formal training before becoming a teacher? Or, put another way, is a person with no formal training qualified to do so?


I'd say it depends on what they are teaching. If you are teaching theology, then you need some education in that. Just like history, math, chemistry or anything else.

The problem I've noticed with the evangelical and non-denom churches I've been to is that they expect the pastor to be a super-Renaissance man. He has to be a charismatic public speaker and entertainer, a good leader, good with finances, a good salesperson for both the church and Christianity in general, a perfect theologian, a good counselor, a conflict resolver and arbiter, an administrator, and have a flawless personal and family life. People basically expect their clergy to be Jesus and get really upset when any of those ingredients are missing. It's too much to throw on one person. I've never been part of a "high church", so maybe they do a better job with the roles and expectations of clergy
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diehard03
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Quote:

The problem I've noticed with the evangelical and non-denom churches I've been to is that they expect the pastor to be a super-Renaissance man. He has to be a charismatic public speaker and entertainer, a good leader, good with finances, a good salesperson for both the church and Christianity in general, a perfect theologian, a good counselor, a conflict resolver and arbiter, an administrator, and have a flawless personal and family life. People basically expect their clergy to be Jesus and get really upset when any of those ingredients are missing.

I get this, but I've also seen the other way where the pastor puts that all on himself when no ones asking him too...and then gets burnt out doing things that no one really needs him to do.
Zobel
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AG
Yeah, agreed. I think that comes in part from the service and the structure of these churches. In many cases the pastor is the CEO of the church. And, their entire service more centers on the sermon. So it's sort of by design at that point.

The expectations for a parish priest are much lower. Yeah, he has to deliver a homily but it's usually much, much shorter and is definitely not the focus of the service. Yeah, the priest is on the parish council and is definitely the leader but he's usually not formally THE guy. If anything the bishop is THE guy, as far as that goes - and he's less local.
diehard03
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Quote:

Yeah, agreed. I think that comes in part from the service and the structure of these churches. In many cases the pastor is the CEO of the church. And, their entire service more centers on the sermon. So it's sort of by design at that point.

I can see how outsiders look at it this way, but this is often not the case. In fact, its kinda the opposite - pastors who focus all their attention on the sermon simply don't care enough about everything else to really act like a CEO.

the CEO pastors are the ones who have a million ministry events, community activities, social events, etc...and often have a very wishy-washy sermon by design.
AgLiving06
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diehard03 said:

Quote:

The problem I've noticed with the evangelical and non-denom churches I've been to is that they expect the pastor to be a super-Renaissance man. He has to be a charismatic public speaker and entertainer, a good leader, good with finances, a good salesperson for both the church and Christianity in general, a perfect theologian, a good counselor, a conflict resolver and arbiter, an administrator, and have a flawless personal and family life. People basically expect their clergy to be Jesus and get really upset when any of those ingredients are missing.

I get this, but I've also seen the other way where the pastor puts that all on himself when no ones asking him too...and then gets burnt out doing things that no one really needs him to do.

I don't envy a pastor from this standpoint.

He's well educated in Theology, but likely not in Business.

I suspect the average Church is running on a tight budget. So not only are they running lean, they aren't able to pay for the best and brightest.

And then a lot of their labor is free in terms of volunteers and as the saying goes, you get what you pay for.
zephyr88
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AG
Sometimes religion follows politics...

Directly related to the growth of the democratic party in Harris County.

Lots of Godless liberals in the big city.
diehard03
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Quote:

Lots of Godless liberals in the big city.

You do realize that that's the fault of the church,right?
Zobel
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I mean from the constitutional structure of the church, not from the priority of the pastor. Most evangelical / baptist churches are structured in their rules and regulations that the pastor is the chief executive of the church. That's a function of the office, not a question of the priority or personality of the pastor.

It's a structural feature of that style of church.
UTExan
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Zobel said:

Yeah, agreed. I think that comes in part from the service and the structure of these churches. In many cases the pastor is the CEO of the church. And, their entire service more centers on the sermon. So it's sort of by design at that point.

The expectations for a parish priest are much lower. Yeah, he has to deliver a homily but it's usually much, much shorter and is definitely not the focus of the service. Yeah, the priest is on the parish council and is definitely the leader but he's usually not formally THE guy. If anything the bishop is THE guy, as far as that goes - and he's less local.
I do not think you are correct here. Most often there seems to be a board of directors/deacons with power to oust the pastor or determine other staff disciplinary action. Perhaps you have some statistical information that is available?
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
Zobel
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AG
A CEO doesn't mean king. Companies, too, have CEOs and boards of directors who can oust the CEO. What you're saying is true but doesn't contradict the role of the senior / lead pastor in most evangelical churches.

The lead pastor usually serves as the president of the church corporation - the chief executive, CEO, whatever you want to call it. He's "the guy". Most of the time he's the chair of the council or committee, can call formal meetings, heads up the elders or deacons, approves the budget and so on.

In most evangelical (in most cases former baptist) churches associate pastors can be removed by a majority vote of the elders / deacons, but the lead or senior pastor requires a 2/3 vote of the whole congregation (a church my parents went to required 75%!!). Or in other cases the deacons must do a 2/3 vote of no confidence which has to ratified by over 50% of the congregation .

In many cases the senior pastor constitutionally doesn't even answer to the deacons or council but only to the church as a whole.

As a fun exercise, just google "baptist church constitution" and see what comes up.
AgLiving06
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UTExan said:

Zobel said:

Yeah, agreed. I think that comes in part from the service and the structure of these churches. In many cases the pastor is the CEO of the church. And, their entire service more centers on the sermon. So it's sort of by design at that point.

The expectations for a parish priest are much lower. Yeah, he has to deliver a homily but it's usually much, much shorter and is definitely not the focus of the service. Yeah, the priest is on the parish council and is definitely the leader but he's usually not formally THE guy. If anything the bishop is THE guy, as far as that goes - and he's less local.
I do not think you are correct here. Most often there seems to be a board of directors/deacons with power to oust the pastor or determine other staff disciplinary action. Perhaps you have some statistical information that is available?

I'm on the Board of Directors at my church (we have Elders as well). Everyone joined as a volunteer.

While we may have the authority to oust the Pastor, it's going to take an extreme situation for that to ever occur. By extreme I mean breaking one of the 10 Commandment type offenses. In general, there's just not going to be a lot of appetite for that kind of change because the fight is going to intense.

What is far more likely to happen (and happened at my Church) is a change gets made that someone is unhappy with and they leave.



Aggrad08
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AG
Seems kind of a harsh response for the pastor not honoring the sabbath or taking the lords name in vain...
AgLiving06
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Aggrad08 said:

Seems kind of a harsh response for the pastor not honoring the sabbath or taking the lords name in vain...

Haha. Fair.

I was more thinking of the lying, cheating, stealing, murder aspect of it haha.
craigernaught
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AG
I was Methodist. While I wasn't in charge of everything, in reality, I was in charge of everything. Sermons have to be biblically sound, contextually appropriate, personally meaningful, entertaining, engaging, prophetic, but not too controversial and never too long - the NFL starts at noon. I was a business developer, educator, children's minister, youth minister, head of young adult ministry. building manager, head of finance, therapist, manager, handyman, couples counselor, community organizer, social worker, wedding officiant, musical lead, tech guru, trusted friend, conflict negotiator, parenting expert, party planner, without personal fault, and super humble about it. The expectations on my wife were also absurd. We were only 25 years old. It was my first real job out of school.

You also had to eat every single thing church ladies cook for you. Some of that stuff is nasty.

I'll defend Protestants forever, but I think the expectations for Catholic and Orthodox priests, while also ridiculous in their own way, are more realistic professionally.
UTExan
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Zobel said:

A CEO doesn't mean king. Companies, too, have CEOs and boards of directors who can oust the CEO. What you're saying is true but doesn't contradict the role of the senior / lead pastor in most evangelical churches.

The lead pastor usually serves as the president of the church corporation - the chief executive, CEO, whatever you want to call it. He's "the guy". Most of the time he's the chair of the council or committee, can call formal meetings, heads up the elders or deacons, approves the budget and so on.

In most evangelical (in most cases former baptist) churches associate pastors can be removed by a majority vote of the elders / deacons, but the lead or senior pastor requires a 2/3 vote of the whole congregation (a church my parents went to required 75%!!). Or in other cases the deacons must do a 2/3 vote of no confidence which has to ratified by over 50% of the congregation .

In many cases the senior pastor constitutionally doesn't even answer to the deacons or council but only to the church as a whole.

As a fun exercise, just google "baptist church constitution" and see what comes up.



I used to belong to a Southern Baptist church way back when and the deacons had a lot of influence because Baptist churches get to pick their pastor (and fire him as the case may be). Therefore they get a better congregational match. Methodist? Well, my experience is that sometimes you don't get the best of the bunch if you are not in the Bible Belt because the bishop appoints. And one final point about evangelical churches: many of them may have been church starts with the current pastor and/or his family running church operations, so continuity makes sense absent any major moral or personal crisis.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
zephyr88
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diehard03 said:

Quote:

Lots of Godless liberals in the big city.

You do realize that that's the fault of the church,right?
No, actually I don't realize that at all... how?
diehard03
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Quote:

No, actually I don't realize that at all... how?

You don't think evangelicals in the current climate carry any blame? Really?
chimpanzee
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Regarding Houston in particular, one might chart the theological progression from Joe to Joel.
zephyr88
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diehard03 said:

Quote:

No, actually I don't realize that at all... how?

You don't think evangelicals in the current climate carry any blame? Really?
I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I still don't follow your point.

What blame are you trying to impose upon the evangelicals?

How is it our fault that the inner city has gone away from God?
diehard03
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Quote:

What blame are you trying to impose upon the evangelicals?

How is it our fault that the inner city has gone away from God?

Have we not fallen short of our calling to be known by love? Why are you creating this "us vs them", as if somehow evangelicals done everything right and the rise of "godless" is a Romans 1 situation?

Do you really feel we have been "godly" enough for the "godless"?
dermdoc
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diehard03 said:

Quote:

What blame are you trying to impose upon the evangelicals?

How is it our fault that the inner city has gone away from God?

Have we not fallen short of our calling to be known by love? Why are you creating this "us vs them", as if somehow evangelicals done everything right and the rise of "godless" is a Romans 1 situation?

Do you really feel we have been "godly" enough for the "godless"?
Tell us what you are doing personally and maybe we will join in.

And to me, giving people stuff with no responsibilities attached is not Godly.
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diehard03
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Quote:

Tell us what you are doing personally and maybe we will join in.

And to me, giving people stuff with no responsibilities attached is not Godly.

I'm not doing this with you again.

if you believe you are truly doing all that God asks for you, the you have nothing to worry about. I don't even know what to do with the 2nd sentence, as no ones even address this particular topic at all.

This is so weird to me. In 50 billion other threads, evangelicals have no problems admitting their sin and need of God for continuing sanctification. But, you use a couple trigger words like "liberal" or "politics" and suddenly it's back to us against them and we think that God is on our side...
dermdoc
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AG
diehard03 said:

Quote:

Tell us what you are doing personally and maybe we will join in.

And to me, giving people stuff with no responsibilities attached is not Godly.

I'm not doing this with you again.

if you believe you are truly doing all that God asks for you, the you have nothing to worry about. I don't even know what to do with the 2nd sentence, as no ones even address this particular topic at all.

This is so weird to me. In 50 billion other threads, evangelicals have no problems admitting their sin and need of God for continuing sanctification. But, you use a couple trigger words like "liberal" or "politics" and suddenly it's back to us against them and we think that God is on our side...
So where did I mention liberal or politics? All I said was is that giving people things without accountability is not Godly.

And yeah, here we go again. You always call people out and never tell us what you personally are doing. There are good people on here who are willing to do a lot if you will tell us what we are supposed to do. But you never tell us specifically. You just try to guilt trip everybody.

And being a liberal is not part of sanctification imho.
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diehard03
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Derm,

We're just not on the same page here.

I'm not calling anyone out or chastise people for not doing enough. I am implying that pitting ourselves against the "godless liberals of the inner cities" is something I don't think Jesus wants us to do. I'm not talking about specifics, or solutions, or problems, or issues or anything else - simply how we view and treat someone else who is also a image bearer of the Creator. As indicated, i also think that Christians do take some blame in the current climate.

What makes it difficult for me is that we (Christians, generally) are very effusive about our sinful nature and our need of a Savior. But, we seem to have lost this in the political space, imo. We start trying to defend God as if He needs defending...and not the one who defends us.

I hope that clears it up.
dermdoc
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AG
diehard03 said:

Derm,

We're just not on the same page here.

I'm not calling anyone out or chastise people for not doing enough. I am implying that pitting ourselves against the "godless liberals of the inner cities" is something I don't think Jesus wants us to do. I'm not talking about specifics, or solutions, or problems, or issues or anything else - simply how we view and treat someone else who is also a image bearer of the Creator. As indicated, i also think that Christians do take some blame in the current climate.

What makes it difficult for me is that we (Christians, generally) are very effusive about our sinful nature and our need of a Savior. But, we seem to have lost this in the political space, imo. We start trying to defend God as if He needs defending...and not the one who defends us.

I hope that clears it up.
Thanks. That clears up a lot and now I think we are on the same page.

Forgive me but with my tendency towards scrupulosity, I have always had a fear that I am not "doing enough" and not in a healthy way but in a very self condemning way. So I take it to heart more than I should.

God bless.
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88Warrior
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dermdoc said:

diehard03 said:

Derm,

We're just not on the same page here.

I'm not calling anyone out or chastise people for not doing enough. I am implying that pitting ourselves against the "godless liberals of the inner cities" is something I don't think Jesus wants us to do. I'm not talking about specifics, or solutions, or problems, or issues or anything else - simply how we view and treat someone else who is also a image bearer of the Creator. As indicated, i also think that Christians do take some blame in the current climate.

What makes it difficult for me is that we (Christians, generally) are very effusive about our sinful nature and our need of a Savior. But, we seem to have lost this in the political space, imo. We start trying to defend God as if He needs defending...and not the one who defends us.

I hope that clears it up.
Thanks. That clears up a lot and now I think we are on the same page.

Forgive me but with my tendency towards scrupulosity, I have always had a fear that I am not "doing enough" and not in a healthy way but in a very self condemning way. So I take it to heart more than I should.

God bless.


Same here in the feeling of "am I doing enough? " Then as I look at my daily devotional this morning I see this.."God began doing good work in you, and I am sure he will continue it until it is finished when Jesus Christ comes again"..Philippians 1:6.

We are all a work in progress..
dermdoc
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AG
I personally think Satan puts those doubt thoughts in our head. So I am resisting and as the Scripture says, the devil will flee.
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Rocag
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Just more unintended consequences of the blending of American Christianity and the Republican Party. Probably a successful move in the short term, but damaging to both sides over the long term.

As for the statistics, while I'd agree that some of the increase in the "nones" can be attributed to people who never believed in the first place but claimed a religion anyway the increase in non-religious people is real and not just an accounting trick. America is a little behind the curve on this trend compared to European nations, but there is little to suggest a reversal of that trend.
diehard03
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This was the mentality I was getting at with my replies:

dermdoc
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AG
Agree to an extent. I have seen a lot of folks wracked by such guilt that they just turn off to all religion.
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diehard03
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Quote:

Agree to an extent. I have seen a lot of folks wracked by such guilt that they just turn off to all religion.

This is why I like the Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector. If one wants to see which way we should "skew" towards, it's right there for us.
dermdoc
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AG
Fair enough. The people I am talking about never thought like the Pharisee. In fact, most of the folks I know have been so broken by life that the last thing they need is someone telling them how bad they are, They need a Savior, love, faith, and hope.
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Buck Turgidson
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CrackerJackAg said:


My experience as a Southern Baptist growing up is what drove me to seek a more intellectual Church.
What do you mean by "intellectual"? I grew up attending a large Methodist Church right across from Rice and it was full of highly educated people who considered themselves intellectual. All of the clergy had terminal degrees. A lot of non-scriptural content from literature and pop culture found its way into the sermons. We often joked that the intros to the sermons sounded like a book club meeting. I found them to be way too ambiguous on hard questions and they did not seem to be as knowledgeable about scripture as they should have been. Lots of personal opinion mixed into their interpretation of scripture as well. They did not think in terms of black and white answers. It did not surprise me to see them drift further into heresy over the years with female clergy, LGBT weddings, emphasizing popular leftist causes, etc.

On the other hand, my experience with Churches of Christ is that the preachers usually do not have terminal degrees, and the elders are largely self-taught on scripture. Not only the leadership but the rank and file members of the church were far more knowledgeable about scripture that anybody else I have met. Lots of analytical, left-brained people (engineers, accountants, law enforcement and military folks). These are the kinds of people who read and follow instructions carefully.

Who would you consider to be intellectuals between those two groups?



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