Living a Theology of Contrast Instead of Opposition

2,343 Views | 43 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by PabloSerna
PacifistAg
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Living a Theology of Contrast Instead of Opposition

A phenomenal piece from one of my most favorite twitter follows.
Quote:

I think part of the problem is that we've allowed ourselves to become unable to conceptualize a belief system different from our own that isn't also antagonistic to our own. If it's different, it must be a threat.

As a result, "positions" become increasingly defined not by the personal convictions that permeate how we live and think and hope but by the battle stance we take in a never-ending war to protect ourselves from "them." The discourse is not so much about growth and understanding as it is about winning and losing.
Quote:

It seems to me that we've lost the ability to believe what we believe with humility. Too often, we treat our own viewpoint as though we see through the eyes of Jesus Christ himself. So when people disagree, we act as if they differ not with us but with God. We might as well make ourselves out to be God.

But the only person who knows how God views the world is God himself. There's a reason we call our beliefs "beliefs" instead of "knowledge." We don't know. We engage the mysteries of life in faith, not certainty, and we trust that God's grace will redeem our plentiful blindspots, because if it doesn't, then all of us are doomed.
Quote:

So I guess I'm tired of living in a world where, "I'm right; you're wrong," determines the nature of discourse. What if I'm wrong, and you're right? Or what if we're both wrong? Or even more radical, what if we both have a piece of what's right?

There's a time and place for telling people they're wrong, don't mistake me. But there's also a time and place for admitting that we could be wrong too. And quite frankly, I see far more of the former than I do of the latter in theological discussion.

My good friend Mary Sue Dauod put it to me this way: at some point we've gotta learn how to live in "contrast but not in opposition," to borrow her language. We don't always need to oppose perspectives that don't fall in line with our own. Living at peace with our faith doesn't require combat. We can choose to live in contrast instead of conflict.
Quote:

Certain things are definitely worth fighting for, such as the ancient creeds of the Christian faith, but other things are worth adopting a posture of humility for. And I've become more and more convinced that gender and sexuality are among those things that require grace, not warfare.

So here's to living in contrast instead of conflict. Here's to living at peace with our faith and not casting suspicion upon those who live differently. Here's to becoming a conscientious objector to the battles we've been told to fight and honoring God's grace as it falls upon all of us. I'm tired of insisting that I'm right. I'm ready to acknowledge that my best is no better than yours.
dermdoc
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Thanks. I have been guilty of that.
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Frok
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How to handle the LGBT issue is a difficult spot for me. I can't affirm the sin but I want them to come to church and connect. It's just very difficult because it feels like there will be that elephant in the room.

But it starts with a mindset similar to the OP.
dermdoc
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My problem is more theological with Calvinists and fundamentalists. When I realized my theology probably elicited the same response from them, I came to the conclusion God's grace covers us all.
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94chem
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Quote:

But the only person who knows how God views the world is God himself.


Kinda went off the rails with that statement, though. Class, can any of you tell us how we can know how God views the world?
Martin Q. Blank
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Quote:

And I've become more and more convinced that gender and sexuality are among those things that require grace, not warfare.
1 Cor. 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

2 Thess 3:14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

Some may see this as an act of grace, others warfare. Talk about a theology of contrast!
PacifistAg
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dermdoc said:

My problem is more theological with Calvinists and fundamentalists. When I realized my theology probably elicited the same response from them, I came to the conclusion God's grace covers us all.
Yes, I struggle with fundamentalists big time. It's just such a harmful and abusive theology that should be confronted, but I struggle to do so with grace and humility.
schmendeler
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Quote:

I think part of the problem is that we've allowed ourselves to become unable to conceptualize a belief system different from our own that isn't also antagonistic to our own. If it's different, it must be a threat.
hello america in the 21st century!
BusterAg
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Frok said:

How to handle the LGBT issue is a difficult spot for me. I can't affirm the sin but I want them to come to church and connect. It's just very difficult because it feels like there will be that elephant in the room.

But it starts with a mindset similar to the OP.

My wife and I have dealt with this issue before in our youth group.

The way that we have done it is just to emphasize the importance of the nuclear family as part of God's plan, and kind of leave it there. We talk about how much the family has benefited humankind, especially western civilization. Questions about non-traditional families are answered that this wasn't the way God intended. Don't confirm, try not to condemn the person, but teach the truth. It's tough.

Our church's stance is that you can't be out and be part of the youth group. Kids are influenced by other kids, and there is just too much danger there. Die your hair blue and dress how you want, but keep that subject to yourself and off of Facebook. Some tough discussions there. (Also had some tough discussions about Facebook and alcohol with kids, too, so this isn't just about sexuality, it's about influence).

You can be out and be part of the congregation, as long as you are not proselytizing your lifestyle as Biblical.
In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality, was tacitly denied by their philosophy. The heresy of heresies was common sense -George Orwell, 1984, Part 1, Chapter 7
UTExan
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I have no problem with people who have a different sexual orientation; I do have a problem with them insisting I must affirm their choices or their genitally -centered politics.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
PacifistAg
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Quote:

genitally -centered politics.

Yeah, I can't stand JK Rowling's obsession with genitals either.
AgLiving06
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PacifistAg said:

Quote:

genitally -centered politics.

Yeah, I can't stand JK Rowling's obsession with genitals either.

She's correct though....
AgLiving06
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I really have a huge disdain for for post-modernism and this article really highlights it.

What you generally see, and this is no exception, is that the person taking this position wants to adjust the meaning of truth to fit what they want to pursue. In other words, it's a pretty selfish lifestyle.

This author (which I know nothing about), appears to want to apply subjective only when it suits her. So creeds can be accepted at "truth" but not gender or sexuality. Why? Because that fits what she wants truth to mean.

I'd much rather start with what are absolute truths and then work on what grace works with. That's unfortunately not what we get here.

PacifistAg
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AgLiving06 said:

PacifistAg said:

Quote:

genitally -centered politics.

Yeah, I can't stand JK Rowling's obsession with genitals either.

She's correct though....

Disagree, but that's for another thread. Or any of the many times the subject has been discussed here, so one can probably just go back and read the old threads since it'll be much the same arguments, with the exception that we probably won't see the debunked myth of Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria.
Serotonin
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" I think part of the problem is that we've allowed ourselves to become unable to conceptualize a belief system different from our own that isn't also antagonistic to our own. If it's different, it must be a threat.

As a result, "positions" become increasingly defined not by the personal convictions that permeate how we live and think and hope but by the battle stance we take in a never-ending war to protect ourselves from "them." The discourse is not so much about growth and understanding as it is about winning and losing"

Pacifist, thanks for linking this, it's hard to argue with the quote above.

But I'd love your take here: How much of this problem has to do with the Protestant framework centered around purity/unity of belief? In other words, if your church's DNA is based on a biblical-based reforming of a church (Rome), then why expect that impulse to change?

Every political dispute , every cultural clash and every theological disagreement becomes grounds for a new split.
AgLiving06
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PacifistAg said:

AgLiving06 said:

PacifistAg said:

Quote:

genitally -centered politics.

Yeah, I can't stand JK Rowling's obsession with genitals either.

She's correct though....

Disagree, but that's for another thread. Or any of the many times the subject has been discussed here, so one can probably just go back and read the old threads since it'll be much the same arguments, with the exception that we probably won't see the debunked myth of Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria.

I doubt anything has actually been debunked. We can pretend that books like Abigail Shrier's don't exist, but the stats suggest she's correct. Young girls are most likely to manifest transgender issues at a significantly higher rate than others.

Second, we should never be giving minors harmful drugs. That's just a simple truth.

Third, if someone wants to claim to be transgender once they are an adult, that's perfect fine. That doesn't change their DNA or who they are. It changes who they want the world to see, but nothing else.

Fourth, Scriptures are also clear. They only way things become acceptable is in the post-modern world where truth, or sin, is whatever we decide to accept at that time. Somehow I don't think that's what Jesus, or the Law accepts.
PA24
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AgLiving06 said:

PacifistAg said:

AgLiving06 said:

PacifistAg said:

Quote:

genitally -centered politics.

Yeah, I can't stand JK Rowling's obsession with genitals either.

She's correct though....

Disagree, but that's for another thread. Or any of the many times the subject has been discussed here, so one can probably just go back and read the old threads since it'll be much the same arguments, with the exception that we probably won't see the debunked myth of Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria.

I doubt anything has actually been debunked. We can pretend that books like Abigail Shrier's don't exist, but the stats suggest she's correct. Young girls are most likely to manifest transgender issues at a significantly higher rate than others.

Second, we should never be giving minors harmful drugs. That's just a simple truth.

Third, if someone wants to claim to be transgender once they are an adult, that's perfect fine. That doesn't change their DNA or who they are. It changes who they want the world to see, but nothing else.

Fourth, Scriptures are also clear. They only way things become acceptable is in the post-modern world where truth, or sin, is whatever we decide to accept at that time. Somehow I don't think that's what Jesus, or the Law accepts.
Your Fourth leads to taking a position especially the last sentence which goes against the belief of the author.


AgLiving06
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Maybe I didn't type the 4th point as clearly as I could have.

My primary point is that when someone tries to take the post modern approach to justify their actions, we shouldn't concede that premise and instead cling to truth, especially that of Scriptures. There are absolute truths, and sometimes that means we aren't able to do what we want.

What the author of this article tries to do is say is that we can't really know what truth is, only God can and what He's given us is just too vague for us to determine. So instead of worrying about right or wrong, we should just learn to get along.

The irony is that she closes out the article by doing the exact opposite of what she says we should do. She wants to determine what we should accept as true. So ancient creeds are good and true, but questions about gender/sexuality we should just apply grace since nobody can truly know what's right or wrong. We can almost always assume that where they want that vagueness, that's really where that person is struggling.

What we should all agree on is that we should extend grace to everyone. Not because we don't know truth, but because we are all sinners.



Frok
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Quote:

So instead of worrying about right or wrong, we should just learn to get along.


That's a good point.
UTExan
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PacifistAg said:

Quote:

genitally -centered politics.

Yeah, I can't stand JK Rowling's obsession with genitals either.
Then you really must have problems with GLAAD.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
HossAg
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BusterAg
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HossAg said:

BusterAg said:

Frok said:

How to handle the LGBT issue is a difficult spot for me. I can't affirm the sin but I want them to come to church and connect. It's just very difficult because it feels like there will be that elephant in the room.

But it starts with a mindset similar to the OP.

My wife and I have dealt with this issue before in our youth group.

The way that we have done it is just to emphasize the importance of the nuclear family as part of God's plan, and kind of leave it there. We talk about how much the family has benefited humankind, especially western civilization. Questions about non-traditional families are answered that this wasn't the way God intended. Don't confirm, try not to condemn the person, but teach the truth. It's tough.

Our church's stance is that you can't be out and be part of the youth group. Kids are influenced by other kids, and there is just too much danger there. Die your hair blue and dress how you want, but keep that subject to yourself and off of Facebook. Some tough discussions there. (Also had some tough discussions about Facebook and alcohol with kids, too, so this isn't just about sexuality, it's about influence).

You can be out and be part of the congregation, as long as you are not proselytizing your lifestyle as Biblical.


Damn. That sounds awful.
That's life in the church in America these days. It has really been enlightening. I was surprised at how agreeable some of the kids were in figuring out a way to include them without creating discord among the parents and group.

Honestly, I don't wish that kind of struggle on any person, but being a part of dealing with it did make me grow.
In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality, was tacitly denied by their philosophy. The heresy of heresies was common sense -George Orwell, 1984, Part 1, Chapter 7
HossAg
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BusterAg
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HossAg said:

I don't understand how a church can prioritize filtering what their kids are exposed to over reaching those that need it the most by their standards. Seems like a great opportunity for the kids to grow and learn in multiple ways.
Kids are impressionable.

To hyperbolize, would you send your 12 year old kid to work at the headquarters of the Church of Scientology for a summer to proselytize? No.

I reject your argument as a false dichotomy. It would be silly for a parent not to filter what their kids are exposed to. That doesn't mean that reaching out to "people in need" has to be rejected to do so.

Why not let parents, who have much more wisdom about such tricky issues as sexuality, be the group reaching out to these kids with compassion? Don't you think that is more meaningful to the alternative kid?

Even if a kid in the youth group is not allowed to be officially "out", do you think everybody in the youth group doesn't know? Do you think that the kids don't see how the blue-haired kids are being treated by the adults? Do you think that we didn't talk to our daughters about this extensively?

Why not let our kids learn by the examples of adults as opposed to providing "unfiltered exposure" to material that is pretty complicated for a young person to grapple with. I don't think it is a great strategy to encourage kids to teach each other about sexuality. That's the blind leading the blind.

The topic of discussion in this thread is living in contrast as opposed to opposition. I don't agree with the wording of the article. I think that opposition is the proper stance, just not condemnation and warfare, which I agree can be harmful. Even 10 years ago, a kid like this would simply be kicked out of the youth group, and the associated family potentially ostracized. I think that reaching out to these young people, and trying to understand them, and setting a good example of love without compromising on principles is important. It's just that I'm not going to send a child to do the job.
In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality, was tacitly denied by their philosophy. The heresy of heresies was common sense -George Orwell, 1984, Part 1, Chapter 7
HossAg
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BusterAg
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No one said anything about segregating.

We don't allow kids to bring beer or joints to devo, either. Nor do we allow them to talk about how great weed is.

The kid is part of the youth group, same as any other. He / she just needs to talk about those issues with adults, not other kids.
In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality, was tacitly denied by their philosophy. The heresy of heresies was common sense -George Orwell, 1984, Part 1, Chapter 7
HossAg
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schmendeler
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BusterAg said:

No one said anything about segregating.

We don't allow kids to bring beer or joints to devo, either. Nor do we allow them to talk about how great weed is.

The kid is part of the youth group, same as any other. He / she just needs to talk about those issues with adults, not other kids.
you said they "can't be out and be part of the youth group." so they can be out and part of the youth group?
BusterAg
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HossAg said:

I don't think being gay is the same kind of "issue" as beer and weed. Not sure why kids shouldn't be able to be involved in that discussion.
It's not the same issue, but they are similar issues for a Christian that believes in traditional family values. I understand that you might not agree with that, and that's fine, but that is how we handle it. These issues are too complex for kids to be dealing with as a group.

And there are discussions. A lot of discussions. Between parents, who have experience and wisdom around things like sexuality, and their kids. We discuss homosexuality with our daughters a lot. Their experiences with alternative lifestyles bring forward a lot of these discussions.

I just don't want my kids to be leaning about healthy sexual relationships from other kids, homosexual or not. Again, the blind leading the blind.

In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality, was tacitly denied by their philosophy. The heresy of heresies was common sense -George Orwell, 1984, Part 1, Chapter 7
BusterAg
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schmendeler said:

BusterAg said:

No one said anything about segregating.

We don't allow kids to bring beer or joints to devo, either. Nor do we allow them to talk about how great weed is.

The kid is part of the youth group, same as any other. He / she just needs to talk about those issues with adults, not other kids.
you said they "can't be out and be part of the youth group." so they can be out and part of the youth group?
No. You can't bring your girlfriend to devo and hold her hand the whole time. Just like, when kids show up high, we send them home.

Look, these kids live in the real world. They go to Jr. High / High School. They interact with people of all different types, and are encouraged to interact with them. Be in sports / band / drama / FFA, whatever. In the world but not of the world, right?

But, twice a week or so, families that share similar values get together and talk about why those values have merit and are worth fighting for. It is a time to build each other up about staying true to those values. It is a delicate balance to try and create that environment, and still be accepting of people that may be looking for something more but that don't really fit in at that point. If a kid that likes to drink or that has an alternative lifestyle wants to come to youth and hang out, it is because they see something in the people that are there, something of value. Sure, come and experience what that is like. But don't expect us to change that environment of edification if you disagree with the value system. You don't take a bottle of vodka to an AA meeting. It defeats the whole point of the group getting together.
In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality, was tacitly denied by their philosophy. The heresy of heresies was common sense -George Orwell, 1984, Part 1, Chapter 7
BusterAg
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I got to get back to work. Thanks for the discussion. I'll check back later or tomorrow morning.
In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality, was tacitly denied by their philosophy. The heresy of heresies was common sense -George Orwell, 1984, Part 1, Chapter 7
schmendeler
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BusterAg said:

schmendeler said:

BusterAg said:

No one said anything about segregating.

We don't allow kids to bring beer or joints to devo, either. Nor do we allow them to talk about how great weed is.

The kid is part of the youth group, same as any other. He / she just needs to talk about those issues with adults, not other kids.
you said they "can't be out and be part of the youth group." so they can be out and part of the youth group?
No. You can't bring your girlfriend to devo and hold her hand the whole time. Just like, when kids show up high, we send them home.

Look, these kids live in the real world. They go to Jr. High / High School. They interact with people of all different types, and are encouraged to interact with them. Be in sports / band / drama / FFA, whatever. In the world but not of the world, right?

But, twice a week or so, families that share similar values get together and talk about why those values have merit and are worth fighting for. It is a time to build each other up about staying true to those values. It is a delicate balance to try and create that environment, and still be accepting of people that may be looking for something more but that don't really fit in at that point. If a kid that likes to drink or that has an alternative lifestyle wants to come to youth and hang out, it is because they see something in the people that are there, something of value. Sure, come and experience what that is like. But don't expect us to change that environment of edification if you disagree with the value system. You don't take a bottle of vodka to an AA meeting. It defeats the whole point of the group getting together.
sorry, i'm a little confused. you seem to be conflating being "out" with having a "partner" that you bring to the youth group?

out just means that you have publicly acknowledged you're gay, it doesn't mean that you bring a significant other to everything you do. unless i've had it all wrong for some time now.

are you actually saying that you just can't bring your same sex girl/boyfriend to youth group?
PacifistAg
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Quote:

The kids need friends and acceptance.

Case in point:

https://instagr.am/p/CDO4vjfBWht
Zobel
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Define support and reject?
schmendeler
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Zobel said:

Define support and reject?
also, suicide.
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