Grace to You statement on the church remaining open

2,554 Views | 35 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by diehard03
AGC
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https://www.gty.org/library/blog/B200723/

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However, while civil government is invested with divine authority to rule the state, neither of those texts (nor any other) grants civic rulers jurisdiction over the church. God has established three institutions within human society: the family, the state, and the church. Each institution has a sphere of authority with jurisdictional limits that must be respected. A father's authority is limited to his own family. Church leaders' authority (which is delegated to them by Christ) is limited to church matters. And government is specifically tasked with the oversight and protection of civic peace and well-being within the boundaries of a nation or community. God has not granted civic rulers authority over the doctrine, practice, or polity of the church. The biblical framework limits the authority of each institution to its specific jurisdiction. The church does not have the right to meddle in the affairs of individual families and ignore parental authority. Parents do not have authority to manage civil matters while circumventing government officials. And similarly, government officials have no right to interfere in ecclesiastical matters in a way that undermines or disregards the God-given authority of pastors and elders.

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Therefore, in response to the recent state order requiring churches in California to limit or suspend all meetings indefinitely, we, the pastors and elders of Grace Community Church, respectfully inform our civic leaders that they have exceeded their legitimate jurisdiction, and faithfulness to Christ prohibits us from observing the restrictions they want to impose on our corporate worship services.

Said another way, it has never been the prerogative of civil government to order, modify, forbid, or mandate worship. When, how, and how often the church worships is not subject to Caesar. Caesar himself is subject to God. Jesus affirmed that principle when He told Pilate, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above" (John 19:11). And because Christ is head of the church, ecclesiastical matters pertain to His Kingdom, not Caesar's. Jesus drew a stark distinction between those two kingdoms when He said, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's" (Mark 12:17). Our Lord Himself always rendered to Caesar what was Caesar's, but He never offered to Caesar what belongs solely to God.

As pastors and elders, we cannot hand over to earthly authorities any privilege or power that belongs solely to Christ as head of His church. Pastors and elders are the ones to whom Christ has given the duty and the right to exercise His spiritual authority in the church (1 Peter 5:14; Hebrews 13:7, 17)and Scripture alone defines how and whom they are to serve (1 Corinthians 4:14). They have no duty to follow orders from a civil government attempting to regulate the worship or governance of the church. In fact, pastors who cede their Christ-delegated authority in the church to a civil ruler have abdicated their responsibility before their Lord and violated the God-ordained spheres of authority as much as the secular official who illegitimately imposes his authority upon the church.

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The church by definition is an assembly. That is the literal meaning of the Greek word for "church"ekklesiathe assembly of the called-out ones. A non-assembling assembly is a contradiction in terms. Christians are therefore commanded not to forsake the practice of meeting together (Hebrews 10:25)and no earthly state has a right to restrict, delimit, or forbid the assembling of believers. We have always supported the underground church in nations where Christian congregational worship is deemed illegal by the state.

When officials restrict church attendance to a certain number, they attempt to impose a restriction that in principle makes it impossible for the saints to gather as the church. When officials prohibit singing in worship services, they attempt to impose a restriction that in principle makes it impossible for the people of God to obey the commands of Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16. When officials mandate distancing, they attempt to impose a restriction that in principle makes it impossible to experience the close communion between believers that is commanded in Romans 16:16, 1 Corinthians 16:20, 2 Corinthians 13:12, and 1 Thessalonians 5:26. In all those spheres, we must submit to our Lord.
PA24
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Frok
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I wish my church would do the same. "Virtual church" is not effective. We opened up at limited capacity for a bit but then shut down again. I'm fairly bitter about it because I feel so disconnected from the church now.
UTExan
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As much as I disagree with McArthur, he is right. Allowing people to mass protest and shout in close proximity without masks is the greatest current transmitter of virus imaginable. Church is much less likely to spread the droplets if even some modicum of distancing is maintained and masks are worn when not singing, all the hysteria to the contrary nothwithstanding. Don't wanna get Covid 19? Don't share bodily fluids by hugging on people and maintain a safe distance.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
dermdoc
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Agree.
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mwm
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I could argue that the way you feel is exactly what many of our elected officials wanted.
mwm
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dp
ramblin_ag02
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Been banging that drum since March. Church is not entertainment. Government should have no right to restrict worship if the church will cooperate and take measures to keep the general public safe.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Win At Life
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ramblin_ag02 said:

Been banging that drum since March. Church is not entertainment. Government should have no right to restrict worship if the church will cooperate and take measures to keep the general public safe.
If your worship includes a knife fight to the death inside your church building, should the government restrict that?
Win At Life
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Of course. So the question is not should the government restrict what goes on in church, but specifically what should the government restrict in a church and what should the government not restrict in the church.
PA24
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ramblin_ag02 said:

Been banging that drum since March. Church is not entertainment. Government should have no right to restrict worship if the church will cooperate and take measures to keep the general public safe.

Disagree with you, if protesters are allowed to take it to the streets then a church's congregation should gather as they please, by their on free will and sit where thy want...and sing their lungs out.

ramblin_ag02
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No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
diehard03
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Quote:

Disagree with you, if protesters are allowed to take it to the streets then a church's congregation should gather as they please, by their on free will and sit where thy want...and sing their lungs out.

This is a different argument. Either the government has the right to restrict a religious meeting, or it doesn't. What it fails to do for another group is not really the point.

On this note, I could have sworn that Macarthur did a talk on following the government and what they were doing was something we should follow?

https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/GTY176/thinking-biblically-about-the-covid19-pandemic-an-interview-with-john-macarthur

maybe I'll have to read/listen to it again...
diehard03
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Quote:

I wish my church would do the same. "Virtual church" is not effective. We opened up at limited capacity for a bit but then shut down again. I'm fairly bitter about it because I feel so disconnected from the church now.

Don't take this the wrong way, but my family has been going through something tough right now and my church has been right along side me. Yes, it doesn't look the same, but it's caused me to consider that often we give into that disconnected feeling rather than accept our brothers and sisters are there for us.

And I haven't been to church since our state initially shut down.

So, I won't speak to your particular situation, but maybe discern if you aren't choosing to feel disconnected because it isn't the same yet.
Frok
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That's a good point, I need to not let my emotions get the best of me. Sometimes when I get down it clouds my vision.

But I need my church and I know others are the same way. Not everyone is plugged in enough to stay connected.

Usually I would have that church circle around me during the trial I am going through. I do not, since my church shut down for the second time it's like all activities, prayers, etc just ceased. Some of that is my group, we all have young children so there is no easy way to meet.

I watched MacArthur's sermon yesterday. I am so thankful to have a church leader speak out on this.

Martin Q. Blank
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Win At Life said:

ramblin_ag02 said:

Been banging that drum since March. Church is not entertainment. Government should have no right to restrict worship if the church will cooperate and take measures to keep the general public safe.
If your worship includes a knife fight to the death inside your church building, should the government restrict that?
Knife fights to the death are restricted everywhere. The government is selectively targeting churches by restricting their right to assemble.
diehard03
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Quote:

But I need my church and I know others are the same way. Not everyone is plugged in enough to stay connected.

Usually I would have that church circle around me during the trial I am going through. I do not, since my church shut down for the second time it's like all activities, prayers, etc just ceased. Some of that is my group, we all have young children so there is no easy way to meet.

I guess that's my point - it just looks different. What did "circle around me" mean to you and why can't you have that now?

If I am also honest, I think some of this is our male culture. We don't call a dude just to call a dude and it may cause us to disconnect ourselves unintentionally.
diehard03
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The government is selectively targeting churches by restricting their right to assemble.

Are they, or are they restricting all indoor meetings?
Frok
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It doesn't just look different, it is different.

Virtual is not a replacement for the real thing.
diehard03
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Quote:

It doesn't just look different, it is different.

Virtual is not a replacement for the real thing.

I get it, but eventually this becomes a you thing. We can whine about things not being the same, or we can do what we can to be connected in.

Call someone. Hang out outside 6 feet away with masks on. Do zoom calls.

Sometimes it feels like all of our religious freedoms has made us soft.
Frok
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Truth. I'll need to be more proactive.

AGC
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diehard03 said:

Quote:

It doesn't just look different, it is different.

Virtual is not a replacement for the real thing.

I get it, but eventually this becomes a you thing. We can whine about things not being the same, or we can do what we can to be connected in.

Call someone. Hang out outside 6 feet away with masks on. Do zoom calls.

Sometimes it feels like all of our religious freedoms has made us soft.


Have you read Lewis' That Hideous Strength? I'd push back against what you're saying by pointing to it and the machinery in place. The window of discussion is changing and some just go along and say what you're saying, accepting incremental change and slight distortions until what is a big deviation from the original design is simply one more small step and no big deal.

In fact, to get to this point one must see church simply as an 'indoor gathering' with no more significance to it than eating at a restaurant and going to a casino. Why wouldn't you just take food to go or wait to play the slots? I understand the typical American who's a tourist, just going places to experience things, would accept that rather than to participate and believe. But to the Christian the experience has more significance and importance and it's not something we ourselves have assigned to it.
diehard03
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Nope. I have not.

I'm not even sure what you're pushing back on. I was just trying to help Frok reframe his frustration, as I have felt something similar and a circumstance helped me do the same. I'm not making any grand statements that we accept everything like it's a non-COVID environment.
94chem
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When Jesus was with his disciples, he said they would do even greater things than he was doing (because they would be all over the world, as a Body, whereas he was only in one place for a few years).

Jesus brought healing to people. As a church, the last thing we want to do is bring sickness. If we are choosing to meet in person, we should be doing everything in our power to comply with the best health practices, so that we are not known as a place that causes sickness.

A large church near us recently sent all the HS kids to camp, precautions were not followed, and now many of them are positive, vectors of illness being brought into the community. This is not how to share the love of Christ. It is how to get our way.
94chem
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10andBOUNCE
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Really enjoyed the live service at MacArthur's church yesterday. Really powerful having him read Daniel 6 to his congregation.
diehard03
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Quote:

Really enjoyed the live service at MacArthur's church yesterday. Really powerful having him read Daniel 6 to his congregation.

I just want to know how much that motorized pulpit was to put in.
PA24
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10andBOUNCE said:

Really enjoyed the live service at MacArthur's church yesterday. Really powerful having him read Daniel 6 to his congregation.
Churches are slowly being strangled out existence, super proud of JM opening doors and packing the congregation with his flock. I saw few mask and wish more churches would stand and proclaim enough is enough! If this is not the great falling away, it is the start.


Speaking of flocks, the government's sheep continue to preach about social distancing, limiting group gathers to 10 except when you protest, and wearing silly mask for a weak flu has a survival rate of 99%.

What is really going on?
diehard03
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Quote:

Speaking of flocks, the government's sheep continue to preach about social distancing, limiting group gathers to 10 except when you protest, and wearing silly mask for a weak flu has a survival rate of 99%.

What is really going on?

its going to be 3rd leading cause of death behind cancer soon...

You can debate measuring methods and comorbidity all you want, but lets not ignore the situation on purpose...
PA24
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diehard03 said:

Quote:

Speaking of flocks, the government's sheep continue to preach about social distancing, limiting group gathers to 10 except when you protest, and wearing silly mask for a weak flu has a survival rate of 99%.

What is really going on?

its going to be 3rd leading cause of death behind cancer soon...

You can debate measuring methods and comorbidity all you want, but lets not ignore the situation on purpose...
..Starting Today, Texas will use only the cause of death that is listed on the official death certificate to declare a C19 death. If it is declared on the death certificate that the virus actually killed em, that is what will be used in the count.

A 99% survival rate and everybody knows this all ends after the election no matter who wins.

I am thankful for preachers that have the courage to tell the government NO MORE!





diehard03
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Quote:

A 99% survival rate and everybody knows this all ends after the election no matter who wins.

This will not end in the November. Everyone know that. Well, everyone except...
bigcat22
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PA24
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Thanks for the heads and I will be watching Tucker.

For those pressed for time...Start at 33:45

bigcat22
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Funny reply to the above tweet

PA24
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Christ is King
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