I don't think I have ever seen it discussed here, but one of my go-to groups for Christian/worship music has been "Bethel Music" which of course is a ministry from Bethel Church in Redding, California.

The other day a friend and I were chatting and they brought up this podcast they had heard which was basically someone who had been part of the program, Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry. After listening to some of the things she had to say, man, it really shed some light on that weird organization. She is an 18-year-old girl who realized the false teachings that were going on in the program and decided to stay to try and combat the false teachings of Bethel with the truth of the actual gospel message and Christ. Pretty interesting listen if you have the time. I definitely feel like there are many "new age" types of Churches out there that unfortunately seem to make up a decent chunk of the millennial demographic of people who claim to be Christians, there were even a couple I knew of while in CS.

Below are the podcasts where she discusses some of the stuff she experienced within Bethel church.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/77tMU7LjGUNZF4Y3ukiuZI?si=mHILWZuySy6EToMFOnYKlg

https://open.spotify.com/episode/0DsTTpGYQxybvq2t6C4k43?si=6VdlW8HXT7KFEdhCkfgbJg

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6oXQM5T1fMClChsPwTRwOo?si=oIMLtnLnQZamTMLfvNnzjA

If we want to be specific about Heresy, a key teaching in the New Apostolic movement is the idea that Jesus "Emptied himself of hit Divinity" -Bill Johnson while on Earth and achieved everything he did as fully man, not God. Therefore, we have the same potential to heal, work miracles in the same way Jesus did and he is the example we follow.

This has never been an accepted position on the person of Jesus and has categorically been recognized as heresy in the early Christian Counsels.

I've listened to part 1 and I plan on finishing it. I am very familiar with Bethel Music as they are very popular. Never knew how wacky the church was until they tried to resurrect someone's kid last year.

You know I get how believing you can raise the dead makes you "extra" wacky.i also see how it's all sorts of messed up regarding that poor family. But is there any reason reading the Bible you should expect a Christian to regard such an act as absurd? It more or less states that Christians should be able to do this and more.

I guess I wonder why this is stupid and praying for god to miraculously heal cancer is all well and good. It seems you are either aboard the physical miraculous intercession of god train or not.

Totally valid point, I wasn't wise with my wording.

The new testament only records two incidents of of people rising from the dead outside of Jesus (Peter & Paul) It is rare. Bill Johnson gives this idea that all Christians should be able to do it. Many believe it was only the apostles who had the ability and the gift has now ceased. I'm not sure where I stand on it, there are accounts where people have resuscitated shortly after dying due to a prayer. (Referencing Craig Keener's Miracles book. They could be bunk no doubt)

I guess the context matters for me

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I am very familiar with Bethel Music as they are very popular. Never knew how wacky the church was until they tried to resurrect someone's kid last year.

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There's a version of Raise a Hallelujah where theres an intro about the healing of one of the leaders kids.

I know it's not intentional, but I would be careful calling the church "wacky". They congregants aren't wacky. Most of the staff is probably pretty normal. They do have a leader (and his family) that do stand on some shaky ground trying to justify their desire to see supernatural healing. It doesn't make it right. Many Christians also like to look at circumstantial events in their life as God's healing/movement/whatever.

I can understand both the "we don't want to support these guys at all so we wont play their songs" crowd and the "if there's nothing theologically wrong with the song, its ok with us" crowd.

Aggrad08 said:

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You know I get how believing you can raise the dead makes you "extra" wacky.i also see how it's all sorts of messed up regarding that poor family. But is there any reason reading the Bible you should expect a Christian to regard such an act as absurd? It more or less states that Christians should be able to do this and more.

I guess I wonder why this is stupid and praying for god to miraculously heal cancer is all well and good. It seems you are either aboard the physical miraculous intercession of god train or not.

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I think there's a difference though between what you're describing and what Bethel claims.

We should all certainly pray to God for others, for healing, for health etc. That does not mean that God will give us what we want or pray for though. In that sense, we are subject to the will of God and that He has bigger plans.

However, that's not what Bethel is doing and that's where it becomes problematic.

Bethel believes that their pastor, Bill Johnson, is a living prophet and that he has the actual authority, given by God, to heal the sick and raise the dead. So they aren't necessarily praying for a miracle, but assuming they have been given the authority to perform miracles, such as raising the dead.

So you'll see it in their language that they are "declaring" things to happen on the belief that they can make them occur.

Dont forget the Spirit Soaking. They took a group of students to europe to see the graves of christian leaders they believe had a supernatural ministry. Folks were encouraged to lie upon their graves to soak up the excess spiritual powers of the dead.

Look I understand its popular to loot the body for manas and potions before the rez timer goes off, but this isnt xbox live.

Kind of scary stuff. I had no idea on some of their beliefs. my cousin is out there really, really involved with the church

My wife and I started looking into Bethel this past winter since they come up on my Pandora station frequently. After some research I decided to start waning myself off of their music. I really liked a lot of it but started considering how spiritual it is in addition to the quirky church beliefs. I don't know if it ultimately really matters, but for me it made sense to move away. I did the same thing with Elevation Worship since the pastor there is quite the character as well. I try not to really be too self righteous and stir the pot with it, but I didn't feel comfortable with either organization at the end of the day.

If you check out the belief section, it's OK as far as Protestants go. Actually, pretty good, given recent trends. Not far from the Nicene Creed.
https://www.bethel.com/about/

Problem is Protestantism. Priesthood of the believer, and all the rest of it .... us Apostolic (Catholic / Orthodox) have argued against for decades now.

The Bible is literally a product of the Apostolic Church. It is NOT the Word of God - Jesus the Logos is the literal Word of God.

So, join us - despite our massive and very tragic problems, especially in the US where the leadership is especially atrocious.

However, the Sacraments will remain.

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My wife and I started looking into Bethel this past winter since they come up on my Pandora station frequently. After some research I decided to start waning myself off of their music. I really liked a lot of it but started considering how spiritual it is in addition to the quirky church beliefs. I don't know if it ultimately really matters, but for me it made sense to move away. I did the same thing with Elevation Worship since the pastor there is quite the character as well. I try not to really be too self righteous and stir the pot with it, but I didn't feel comfortable with either organization at the end of the day

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I would say just be careful. For all you know, ALL of the songs you like have authors that have suspect theologies: you just don't know about them yet. And, the guys that wrote hymns 400 years ago didn't have the joys of technology that allowed us to know all this information.

And, rest assured, the moment you wrote a worship song someone would claim the same thing about you.

Does this mean we give up and have no standards? No. I'd probably start with the theology of the song itself and work from there.

Redstone said:

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If you check out the belief section, it's OK as far as Protestants go. Actually, pretty good, given recent trends. Not far from the Nicene Creed.
https://www.bethel.com/about/

Problem is Protestantism. Priesthood of the believer, and all the rest of it .... us Apostolic (Catholic / Orthodox) have argued against for decades now.

The Bible is literally a product of the Apostolic Church. It is NOT the Word of God - Jesus the Logos is the literal Word of God.

So, join us - despite our massive and very tragic problems, especially in the US where the leadership is especially atrocious.

However, the Sacraments will remain.

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No thanks. The Marian emphasis is unbiblical IMHO.

Let's not let Redstone derail the thread

diehard03 said:

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My wife and I started looking into Bethel this past winter since they come up on my Pandora station frequently. After some research I decided to start waning myself off of their music. I really liked a lot of it but started considering how spiritual it is in addition to the quirky church beliefs. I don't know if it ultimately really matters, but for me it made sense to move away. I did the same thing with Elevation Worship since the pastor there is quite the character as well. I try not to really be too self righteous and stir the pot with it, but I didn't feel comfortable with either organization at the end of the day

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I would say just be careful. For all you know, ALL of the songs you like have authors that have suspect theologies: you just don't know about them yet. And, the guys that wrote hymns 400 years ago didn't have the joys of technology that allowed us to know all this information.

And, rest assured, the moment you wrote a worship song someone would claim the same thing about you.

Does this mean we give up and have no standards? No. I'd probably start with the theology of the song itself and work from there.

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I think you bring up a good point that we should consider theology of the writer as we consider when or if we should be using the song.

I think in a general day to day setting, if you want to listen to Bethel or Elevation because you enjoy their music, I would suspect that's ok to enjoy the song for what it is. Good catchy music that in some ways bring glory to God.

However, when you're in a place or state of worshiping God, we should absolutely be factoring in the theology of the writers. This is why you see the older groups (orthodox, rome, lutherans, etc) emphasize the Liturgy. It was crafted to be theologically correct to their beliefs.

Yeah I think those are good points that we have thought of. It's definitely opening Pandora's box if I am aiming to filter music by certain artists' theology going forward. It's also probably a near impossible feat to even understand where artists fall on certain things.

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However, when you're in a place or state of worshiping God, we should absolutely be factoring in the theology of the writers.

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Based on what? Did not the song writers write these words so we can sing them to God and worship him? Do we consider the theology of the pew maker? Or the mason who built the church walls?

Where's the line where we say it doesn't matter?

(to complete the thought - I get the whole "don't want our congregants to start googling and think we endorse all the things Bethel does because we play their music" argument. But this is not that argument)

I'm not calling for a legalistic approach.

What I am saying is there should be a differentiation between daily life and the Liturgy.

The Liturgy is meant to be a celebration of Communion.

The elements that make up the Liturgy should be centered on that goal.

Are buildings or pews materially going to impact that direction? No. God makes it clear He is where ever two or 3 are gathered.

However, when it comes to the worship though, it seems the words we speak, sing or chant are important and should be towards strengthening and deepening that celebration. Why would we want to use that time to use elements that are theologically shallow or based on a theology that is wrong?

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However, when it comes to the worship though, it seems the words we speak, sing or chant are important and should be towards strengthening and deepening that celebration. Why would we want to use that time to use elements that are theologically shallow or based on a theology that is wrong?

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You seem to be conflating the theology of the song with the theology of the artist.

I absolutely believe that the words we sing/say/etc matter.

I don't see how you can separate the artist from the song?

You're basic premise seems to be we can take a song and reinterpret it to mean whatever we want it to be, regardless of the intent of the artist.

My premise is that with something as important as the Liturgy, there's no good reason to do that.

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I don't see how you can separate the artist from the song?

You're basic premise seems to be we can take a song and reinterpret it to mean whatever we want it to be, regardless of the intent of the artist.

My premise is that with something as important as the Liturgy, there's no good reason to do that.

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No.

Again, you're missing the point and arguing against something I am not promoting.

The words of the song are the words of the song. Either it's worthy of being a worship song or it's not - based on the song itself. The artist can certainly clarify the words and we can take that into account, but no ones making the case that we should reinterpret things to mean what we want.

Just because Bethel people have gone incorrectly on some theological points doesn't mean they are forever prevented from writing a theologically true song. This is my point.

Also, you know you're wasting your breath right? Proclaiming Liturgy on a thread involving people who listen to contemporary worship music and most likely do in church.

I do get your point, I just don't agree with it.

I'll go back to the very first point I made in this thread. The fact that they can write a "theologically correct" song while being theologically incorrect on so many things is by being so shallow in theology as to not take much of a stance on anything.

So I went to Spotify, and "No Longer a Slave" is the number 1 song they have with nearly 63 million listens.

Below are their lyrics. Is it theologically correct? Sure you could say it meets the lowest hurdle available...but again, is that the bar? Catchy and shallow during the most important time of the week?

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You unravel me with a melody
You surround me with a song
Of deliverance from my enemies
'Til all my fears are gone

I'm no longer a slave to fear
I am a child of God
I'm no longer a slave to fear
I am a child of God

From my mother's womb
You have chosen me
Love has called my name
I've been born again to a family
Your blood flows through my veins

I'm no longer a slave to fear
I am a child of God
I'm no longer a slave to fear
I am a child of God
I'm no longer a slave to fear
I am a child of God
I'm no longer a slave to fear
I am a child of God

I am surrounded
By the arms of the Father
I am surrounded
By songs of deliverance

We've been liberated
From our bondage
We're the sons and the daughters
Let us sing our freedom

You split the sea
So I could walk right through it
My fears are drowned in perfect love
You rescued me
And I will stand and sing
I am a child of God

You split the sea
So I could walk right through it
You drown my fears in perfect love
You rescued me
And I will stand and sing
I am a child of God

Yes, I am
I am a child of God
I am a child of God
Yes, I am
I am a child of God
Full of faith
Yes, I am a child of God
I am a child of God

I'm no longer a slave to fear
I am a child of God
I'm no longer a slave to fear
I am a child of God

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Meh, this one isn't so bad. A bit repetitive, but I don't see anything that isn't true in that song.

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I do get your point, I just don't agree with it.

I'll go back to the very first point I made in this thread. The fact that they can write a "theologically correct" song while being theologically incorrect on so many things is by being so shallow in theology as to not take much of a stance on anything.

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And I wasn't responding to your initial point. You got enough blue stars for a blue post. I don't know that you need to shoe horn it in again.

Everyone knows you're a Liturgical person who would be against these simplistic songs.

diehard03 said:

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I don't see how you can separate the artist from the song?

You're basic premise seems to be we can take a song and reinterpret it to mean whatever we want it to be, regardless of the intent of the artist.

My premise is that with something as important as the Liturgy, there's no good reason to do that.

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Also, you know you're wasting your breath right? Proclaiming Liturgy on a thread involving people who listen to contemporary worship music and most likely do in church.

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I know I responded to your bigger reply, but I also wanted to respond to this separately .

I think it's honestly more important to mention the Liturgy on threads like this vs others.

If I mention it on a thread that's largely Orthodox or Rome or Lutheran, most are going to not give it a second glance and agree it's the preferred option.

Someone on this thread though, could read it and wonder what a Liturgy is and start trying to learn about it. Or maybe someone takes a look and begins to wonder if we should differentiate what we listen to during the week vs what we use during a worship service.

And I say this as someone who grew up with contemporary worship and didn't realize that we should desire more from a Sunday service than what I was getting.

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I know I responded to your bigger reply, but I also wanted to respond to this separately .

I think it's honestly more important to mention the Liturgy on threads like this vs others.

If I mention it on a thread that's largely Orthodox or Rome or Lutheran, most are going to not give it a second glance and agree it's the preferred option.

Someone on this thread though, could read it and wonder what a Liturgy is and start trying to learn about it. Or maybe someone takes a look and begins to wonder if we should differentiate what we listen to during the week vs what we use during a worship service.

And I say this as someone who grew up with contemporary worship and didn't realize that we should desire more from a Sunday service than what I was getting.

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In my opinion, it's just low hanging fruit and doesn't really add to the actual discussion. it's just another "omg my way is better than your way" talking point.

If were honest, what you did is no different than what Redstone did...and you didn't want him derailing your derail.

Liturgy and non-Liturgy solve different problems, so it's really kinda foolish to pit them against each other.

small world. I met someone who was a part of BSSM recently. didn't know much or talk much about what that entailed, but now I'm curious.

Is the person at your Church now? Because that would be a night and day change. Would be curious what they thought.