Thanks to Pacifist Ag for turning me on to him. He and I have had similar experiences although mine are much more humble in nature.

Reading "Water to wine" right now.

Any excerpts you would like to share....so I can argue with you?

Not right now. Try it, you might like it.

Zahnd started reading the early Church Fathers and it completely changed his theology.

Just a snippet

"The paradox is that the narrow way leads to broad acceptance. The narrow way is not narrow mindedness. The narrow way is exactly what Jesus said it is-treating others with the generosity of love. The golden rule is the narrow gate."

I think it is that and so much more. The narrow path is difficult, the broad path is easy. It's like that in all facets of life. Eating healthy is hard, eating unhealthy is easy. Reading science fiction is easy, reading scripture is hard.

Anything worth doing is always harder IMO

But yes, I agree loving God and loving others is the foundation.

Agree. Found that out in med school and residency. It is easy to shirk responsibility and not do your best. Hard to do everything like you are doing it for the Lord.

Oh Zahnd is great. A Farewell To Mars is my favorite of his works. Beauty Will Save The World is also fantastic.

You should dip your toe into Greg Boyd's works next. He is more academic in his writing, but Crucifixion of the Warrior God is such an amazing, life-altering theological work.

dermdoc said:

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Agree. Found that out in med school and residency. It is easy to shirk responsibility and not do your best. Hard to do everything like you are doing it for the Lord.

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I am telling my kids that I don't know if their current interests will lead them to more commitment, higher aptitude, or what. It's up to them to figure that out. But I tell them that whatever it is that they decide to be good at, it will cost them something dear.

dermdoc said:

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Zahnd started reading the early Church Fathers and it completely changed his theology.

Just a snippet

"The paradox is that the narrow way leads to broad acceptance. The narrow way is not narrow mindedness. The narrow way is exactly what Jesus said it is-treating others with the generosity of love. The golden rule is the narrow gate."

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I guess here's my question.

I read his and the Church bio and it sounds like 2004 is when he started to change his theology as you mentioned.

When he started to read the history and the Fathers, why would he stay non-denom?

Good question. He went from a Jonathan Edward's Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God proponent to writing a book titled Sinners in the Hands of a loving God. Pretty radical change.

PacifistAg said:

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Oh Zahnd is great. A Farewell To Mars is my favorite of his works. Beauty Will Save The World is also fantastic.

You should dip your toe into Greg Boyd's works next. He is more academic in his writing, but Crucifixion of the Warrior God is such an amazing, life-altering theological work.

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Will try Boyd out.

So how would Zahnd respond to a situation in which he was forced to choose doing nothing or defending his family with physical force or does he address that? In the 1st Century Church Christians had little means to defend themselves due to weapons prohibitions nor did they innately believe in a God-granted right to self defense whereas in 20th century America, we do have technology and law on our side.

He has not said anything about that yet. I believe in self defense.

dermdoc said:

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He has not said anything about that yet. I believe in self defense.

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Pretty sure he's a pacifist who, like virtually all pacifists, believe in self-defense. We just reject the use of violence in that defense. But, I would imagine he also holds to the more Orthodox view as well that if he should fall short of the example Christ set and uses violence, he can be thankful that his family was saved, but also not attempt to sanctify the violence and understand that, especially if it resulted in a death, it creates a moral injury no matter how "justified".

Re reading Boyd's Cross vision.

dermdoc said:

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Re reading Boyd's Cross vision.

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Come on! Dive in head first and go for his two-volume Crucifixion of the Warrior God. It's soooo worth it.

Claiming he is a conservative and can't back a moderate like Trump indicates to me a man that has an agenda and is not being completely honest with himself or his followers.

We only have 2 choices and for once you can tell the difference between the two candidates.

BLM is not a Christian group.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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The last time I saw anything about him was this which gave me all of the facepalm... but I go to his tweets now.. pretty politically charged

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Yeah, he's become much more political the last few years. It can rough at times.

Ubitag said:

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Claiming he is a conservative and can't back a moderate like Trump indicates to me a man that has an agenda and is not being completely honest with himself or his followers.

We only have 2 choices and for once you can tell the difference between the two candidates.

BLM is not a Christian group.

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I disagree that there's only 2 choices. Disagree that there's a substantive difference between the two major candidates. Agree that BLM is not a Christian group. Neither is the GOP. On BLM...they don't claim to be a Christian group, although there are Christians that are part of BLM.

PacifistAg said:

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Ubitag said:

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Claiming he is a conservative and can't back a moderate like Trump indicates to me a man that has an agenda and is not being completely honest with himself or his followers.

We only have 2 choices and for once you can tell the difference between the two candidates.

BLM is not a Christian group.

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I disagree that there's only 2 choices. Disagree that there's a substantive difference between the two major candidates. Agree that BLM is not a Christian group. Neither is the GOP. On BLM...they don't claim to be a Christian group, although there are Christians that are part of BLM.

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Agree...politics are whatever.

I think he's making a mistake in getting so political, simply because he's going to alienate people who he could be leading to Jesus, but that's his decision.

However, what Swimmer posted is far more concerning as that shows a much bigger issue with his theology.

Quote:

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I think he's making a mistake in getting so political, simply because he's going to alienate people who he could be leading to Jesus, but that's his decision.

However, what Swimmer posted is far more concerning as that shows a much bigger issue with his theology.

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It's not so much the political that rubs me the wrong way. It's the seeming partisanship that does.

As for the tweet swimmer posted, I think that's more the case of sloppy tweeting vs a theological issue. I seem to recall him clarifying this tweet that of course he believes Christ is throughout the Scripture, but was really just talking about the incarnation.The OT points to the Word made flesh, so I believe he's really just talking about the point in which the Word takes on that flesh and becomes fully human. Regardless, it's a sloppily worded tweet that caused a ton of backlash, and with someone in his position, I had hoped it would be a reminder of the necessity in choosing our words very wisely.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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The last time I saw anything about him was this which gave me all of the facepalm... but I go to his tweets now.. pretty politically charged

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Not a good theological take but I agree with pacifist that he just got sloppy.

PacifistAg said:

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Ubitag said:

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Claiming he is a conservative and can't back a moderate like Trump indicates to me a man that has an agenda and is not being completely honest with himself or his followers.

We only have 2 choices and for once you can tell the difference between the two candidates.

BLM is not a Christian group.

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I disagree that there's only 2 choices. Disagree that there's a substantive difference between the two major candidates. Agree that BLM is not a Christian group. Neither is the GOP. On BLM...they don't claim to be a Christian group, although there are Christians that are part of BLM.

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Then we agree to disagree.

But we agree that


DJT does not behave like a Christian, neither does his offsprings. Nor does Biden.

One side has 90% of the evangelical support, the Other one does not. So think I will support that candidate.

PacifistAg said:

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Quote:

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I think he's making a mistake in getting so political, simply because he's going to alienate people who he could be leading to Jesus, but that's his decision.

However, what Swimmer posted is far more concerning as that shows a much bigger issue with his theology.

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It's not so much the political that rubs me the wrong way. It's the seeming partisanship that does.

As for the tweet swimmer posted, I think that's more the case of sloppy tweeting vs a theological issue. I seem to recall him clarifying this tweet that of course he believes Christ is throughout the Scripture, but was really just talking about the incarnation.The OT points to the Word made flesh, so I believe he's really just talking about the point in which the Word takes on that flesh and becomes fully human. Regardless, it's a sloppily worded tweet that caused a ton of backlash, and with someone in his position, I had hoped it would be a reminder of the necessity in choosing our words very wisely.

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He may have clarified it but it makes sense that he would think/believe it pretty strongly for the exact reason you posted. I don't know if sloppy is quite the right adjective. Please correct me because I know I'm going to get it wrong but you believe Jesus is the (I'm going to screw up the phrase here because I can't remember it exactly) exact representation of God's character, to the extent that you don't believe that God did some of what is attributed to Him in the Torah (such as killing people, inflicting sickness on them, commanding death, etc.). That would make a very nuanced view that's hard to articulate on social media in a meaningful way if Zahnd has the same belief.

Edit: that doesn't even address the other aspects of the Word being present since the beginning which I'm sure swimmer and Twitter were all over. 140 characters is not a preaching platform.

PacifistAg said:

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Ubitag said:

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Claiming he is a conservative and can't back a moderate like Trump indicates to me a man that has an agenda and is not being completely honest with himself or his followers.

We only have 2 choices and for once you can tell the difference between the two candidates.

BLM is not a Christian group.

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I disagree that there's only 2 choices. Disagree that there's a substantive difference between the two major candidates. Agree that BLM is not a Christian group. Neither is the GOP. On BLM...they don't claim to be a Christian group, although there are Christians that are part of BLM.

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That must be difficult for them since the founders identify as Marxists and convicted terrorist Susan Rosenberg is part of their support network.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/black-lives-matter-fundraising-handled-by-group-with-convicted-terrorist-on-its-board%3F_amp%3Dtrue

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One side has 90% of the evangelical support, the Other one does not. So think I will support that candidate.

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One side has support of people like Robert Jeffress, Franklin Graham, and Jerry Falwell. I think I'll avoid that side. Don't worry, I'll avoid the other. I don't vote. I like Spurgeon's thoughts on choosing between two evils.

UTExan said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Ubitag said:

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Claiming he is a conservative and can't back a moderate like Trump indicates to me a man that has an agenda and is not being completely honest with himself or his followers.

We only have 2 choices and for once you can tell the difference between the two candidates.

BLM is not a Christian group.

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I disagree that there's only 2 choices. Disagree that there's a substantive difference between the two major candidates. Agree that BLM is not a Christian group. Neither is the GOP. On BLM...they don't claim to be a Christian group, although there are Christians that are part of BLM.

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That must be difficult for them since the founders identify as Marxists and convicted terrorist Susan Rosenberg is part of their support network.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/black-lives-matter-fundraising-handled-by-group-with-convicted-terrorist-on-its-board%3F_amp%3Dtrue

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The founders of the Southern Baptist Convention were horrible racists, but not every Southern Baptist is racist. I know many who support BLM that love Christ dearly and walk with Him daily.

Quote:

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He may have clarified it but it makes sense that he would think/believe it pretty strongly for the exact reason you posted. I don't know if sloppy is quite the right adjective.

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I think sloppy is absolutely is the correct term, especially if you put it in context of all that Zahnd has said over the years.

Quote:

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Please correct me because I know I'm going to get it wrong but you believe Jesus is the (I'm going to screw up the phrase here because I can't remember it exactly) exact representation of God's character, to the extent that you don't believe that God did some of what is attributed to Him in the Torah (such as killing people, inflicting sickness on them, commanding death, etc.).

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Yes, I believe Scripture when it tells us that Christ is the exact representation of the very nature of God, and that anything that is inconsistent with who Christ is is therefore inconsistent with who God is. I believe genocide, infanticide, death, destruction are inconsistent with the nature of God as revealed in Christ crucified. I believe these depictions are accommodations that God makes to maintain relationship with His people and move them closer to His true nature, which is revealed as Christ hung on the cross. Just as we see the Father never desired sacrifice, but instead mercy. Sacrifices and burnt offerings were not what He desired, but what He accommodated to continue nudging His people to Him.

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That would make a very nuanced view that's hard to articulate on social media in a meaningful way if Zahnd has the same belief.

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Yes, it is difficult to articulate such a view on a platform such as twitter. Greg Boyd laid out this perspective over a massive 1400 page, 2-volume work.

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Edit: that doesn't even address the other aspects of the Word being present since the beginning which I'm sure swimmer and Twitter were all over. 140 characters is not a preaching platform.

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Agree completely w/ the last sentence. It's a horrible platform to try and make statements that require any level of nuance.

PacifistAg said:

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Quote:

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One side has 90% of the evangelical support, the Other one does not. So think I will support that candidate.

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One side has support of people like Robert Jeffress, Franklin Graham, and Jerry Falwell. I think I'll avoid that side. Don't worry, I'll avoid the other. I don't vote. I like Spurgeon's thoughts on choosing between two evils.

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I support your decision...voting is not for everyone.

I only wish TAMU had the values of Liberty University.

I love to listen to Franklin dad preach....one of my favorites.

Franklin ain't his daddy, and I want nothing to do with Liberty "values" that do nothing about people like Falwell. I'd rather just stick to Christian values.

PacifistAg said:

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UTExan said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Ubitag said:

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Claiming he is a conservative and can't back a moderate like Trump indicates to me a man that has an agenda and is not being completely honest with himself or his followers.

We only have 2 choices and for once you can tell the difference between the two candidates.

BLM is not a Christian group.

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I disagree that there's only 2 choices. Disagree that there's a substantive difference between the two major candidates. Agree that BLM is not a Christian group. Neither is the GOP. On BLM...they don't claim to be a Christian group, although there are Christians that are part of BLM.

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That must be difficult for them since the founders identify as Marxists and convicted terrorist Susan Rosenberg is part of their support network.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/black-lives-matter-fundraising-handled-by-group-with-convicted-terrorist-on-its-board%3F_amp%3Dtrue

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The founders of the Southern Baptist Convention were horrible racists, but not every Southern Baptist is racist. I know many who support BLM that love Christ dearly and walk with Him daily.

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Just to clarify, are we talking about the movement or the organization founded by self-proclaimed Marxists?
Edit: Because I am sure that confessing Christians were allies of the Nazis until the brutality of the Nazis became apparent. Similarly, Christians were in favor of apartheid in SA during the 1950s and 60s and Christians saw nothing wrong with slavery during the 1st through 19th centuries.

It is pointless to inflict a 21st century culture on those proceeding us as a means of judging them. That is the Lord's job.

PacifistAg said:

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Franklin ain't his daddy, and I want nothing to do with Liberty "values" that do nothing about people like Falwell. I'd rather just stick to Christian values.

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I don't known anything about Franklin nor have I ever listen to Falwell but I have heard nothing but good reviews on the university he started. A Christian school.
I received my MBA from LeTourneau University, a Christian university and appreciate a school that teaches the word of Christ....unlike state supported schools.

This guy you are promoting seems a little extreme. His message of biblical scripture and his personal views are like too different people.

BLM is a hate group.

Christians make up all races and colors.
No race should be singled out as either good or bad. That type of view is Nazis like.



Can I recommend some John MacAuthur?

Yeah I'll pass on MacArthur.

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Christians make up all races and colors.
No race should be singled out as either good or bad.

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Agree. That's not what BLM does. But odd how we never hear this "all lives matter" type stuff when people say "blue uniforms matter" or "God bless America". All jobs matter, right? Not just cops. Why single out one voluntary profession. God bless people of all countries. But we only hear that response when it comes to black lives matter. Odd.