Hagia Sophia to be turned back into a mosque

3,483 Views | 53 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by schmendeler
ramblin_ag02
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Quote:

They also conquered the region in war.

The Jews have both a historical as well as a possessive claim to Jerusalem but the Muslims assert that the Jews have no right to the land. The Jews claim to the Holy Sites in Jerusalem are stronger than the muslims claims on the Hagia Sophia and yet the muslims claim they get to use the right of possession for the one while denying Israel's same claim in the other case.
This is tricky. Modern Israel was basically created by the victorius Allies after WW2 from the British Territory of Palestine. Part of that creation involved recognizing certain Muslim rights, control of the Temple Mount being the most important. The Israeli's have since defended that territory from military aggressin of neighboring countries on many occasions, but it's not like they up and conquered the entire territory. Also, Israel's main allies are the same countries that created it in the first place, and none of them are cool with repossessing Muslim holy sites.
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GiggityAg01
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Serotonin said:

The possibility of turning part of Istanbul or Asia Minor into a Christian territory ended in the early 20th century. There are almost no Christians left in Turkey today.


For many years now turkey has been on par with Iran for western Christians in terms of safety. Many killings the msm won't report about.
Ags4DaWin
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ramblin_ag02 said:

Quote:

They also conquered the region in war.

The Jews have both a historical as well as a possessive claim to Jerusalem but the Muslims assert that the Jews have no right to the land. The Jews claim to the Holy Sites in Jerusalem are stronger than the muslims claims on the Hagia Sophia and yet the muslims claim they get to use the right of possession for the one while denying Israel's same claim in the other case.
This is tricky. Modern Israel was basically created by the victorius Allies after WW2 from the British Territory of Palestine. Part of that creation involved recognizing certain Muslim rights, control of the Temple Mount being the most important. The Israeli's have since defended that territory from military aggressin of neighboring countries on many occasions, but it's not like they up and conquered the entire territory. Also, Israel's main allies are the same countries that created it in the first place, and none of them are cool with repossessing Muslim holy sites.


for brevity i did ignore the fact that the area is now under the control of the jewish people as a result kf defensive military actions they took when under attack. they captured this region as a result of the conflict.

if anything that makes my point stronger. they occupy these sites only because the muslims attacked them. nevertheless they are occupied as a result of war, so they should get to do with them as they please.

just like the muslims in turkey see it ad their right to do whatever they want with the Hagia Sophia.
craigernaught
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Quote:

for brevity i did ignore the fact that the area is now under the control of the jewish people as a result kf defensive military actions they took when under attack. they captured this region as a result of the conflict.

if anything that makes my point stronger. they occupy these sites only because the muslims attacked them. nevertheless they are occupied as a result of war, so they should get to do with them as they please.

just like the muslims in turkey see it ad their right to do whatever they want with the Hagia Sophia.
It isn't under control because of "defensive military actions". I don't know why people insist this is the case when the history of the war is available for anyone to read. Given that the Israelis initially claimed to have been attacked first to create support for the war only to later change their story claiming that it was preemptive, I'm not sure why people keep accepting their initial claim that they have since rejected. The only reason I can think of is just plain partisanship.

The Israelis attacked first. One of the reasons they were so successful is because they attacked first and the Egyptians were surprised and not prepared to fight, nor were any of the other Arab nations either ready or capable to go to war with Israel which should be a bit surprising given that they were supposedly about to attack Israel. The only even moderately capable (but vastly outnumbered and outgunned) force were the Jordanians who were absolutely screwed over by incompetent and self-serving Egyptian generals.

The Jordanians had been in communication with the Israelis throughout the conflict, and after the "threat" to Israel had passed, the Israelis prolonged the conflict in order to acquire territory, particularly the Old City and historical Judea and Samaria. They only stopped due to intense pressure from the West.

You keep saying "the muslims" attacked them as if they were some unified group of people who bear responsibility for the actions of the others. "The Muslims" were not unified at the time and had extreme hostilities and rivalries between the groups. For example, the Jordanians were far more fearful of the Syrians, Egyptians, Iraqis, and Saudis than the Israelis. The inner-Arab rivalry is probably the biggest cause of the war in '67 - at least according to Avi Shlaim. And it certainly isn't the case that "the muslims" that went to war with the Israelis in the mid 20th century are united in any way with the Turks given that Arabs in the Levant had just broken free from Turkish rule in a war the Arabs fought against the Turks just half a century earlier while allied with the West. Grouping all Muslim people and nations together in a weird type of collectivist responsibility and obligation only serves to make this argument about justifying Israeli occupation in Palestine given the Turkish takeover of the Hagia Sophia 550 years ago. And even if it is hypocritical, it still doesn't justify doing what is wrong.

Your argument doesn't work.

All that said, the Turks shouldn't have converted it back into a mosque. It strains relations with everyone else, further harms the Christian minority in Turkey, reminds Eastern Christians in the Middle East and abroad of historical injustice, and, most of all, harms regular Muslims in Turkey who have to live under an increasingly Islamist leader bent on using their faith to justify an illiberal, autocratic government that is, against its national interest, further isolating itself from its neighbors and the West.

The attempt to turn this into a Muslim vs Jew or Muslim vs the West isn't helpful. This is Islamist autocrat vs the Turkish people.
Ordhound04
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jrico2727 said:

Unless, they are worshipping Father, Son, and Holy Ghost they are not worshipping the true God.


So the Jewish people don't worship the one true God?
ramblin_ag02
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Right. Except that Erdogan is not really an Islamist autocrat. He's been pretty secular compared to most of Turkey for his entire regime. Recently, he has been losing support both at home and internationally, and he looks to be on his way out. His party just lost some big elections this summer. So now he is grasping at straws to get whatever support he can. This is a calculated move by him to bolster his support with hard-line Islamists in Turkey and Sunnis abroad. He's grasping at straws, and it it just so happens that this particular straw carries a millenia and a half of symbolism. First it was a symbol of Christian power, then Muslim power. For the last 100 years it has been a symbol of Christians and Muslims allied and working together. So Erdogan by doing this is saying that he cares more about domestic and international Sunni Muslim support than international Christian or secular support, which is a slap in the face to NATO at the very least.

From a religious perspective, its just more evidence that a large and powerful group of Muslims have no desire whatsoever to play nice with anyone else
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Ags4DaWin
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wow...that is an interesting take on history. so i will just have to say that I would love to see your sources where it is available for everyone to read. because the only place i have read your version of events was in muslim supported media.

that being said, i was not turning it into a muslim versus jew thing, just pointing out the hypocrisy of a muslim majority country coopting a christian holy site because they control the land, land which was taken from christians by force.

and then telling jews that they can't do the same thing, especially when you throw into the mix that the land has been a jewish holy site for longer than it was a muslim holy site.

hypocrisy.

and that is why when it comes to dealing with the muslims you have to be very careful.
jrico2727
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Not since they rejected Christ, one he was revealed to them the ones who rejected him rejected God.
one MEEN Ag
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I think in our lifetime we see Israel take the Dome on the Rock and start to build a new temple.

Will be interesting.
swimmerbabe11
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I really wish I had the skills to photoshop a Dwayne Johnson meme here.
craigernaught
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one MEEN Ag said:

I think in our lifetime we see Israel take the Dome on the Rock and start to build a new temple.

Will be interesting.

Absolutely will not happen.
Frok
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Antifa will probably take it and cover it with graffiti
one MEEN Ag
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craigernaught said:

one MEEN Ag said:

I think in our lifetime we see Israel take the Dome on the Rock and start to build a new temple.

Will be interesting.

Absolutely will not happen.
Why not. There is growing sentiment in israel that theIr messiah won't come to save them unless the temple is already built.
schmendeler
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one MEEN Ag said:

craigernaught said:

one MEEN Ag said:

I think in our lifetime we see Israel take the Dome on the Rock and start to build a new temple.

Will be interesting.

Absolutely will not happen.
Why not. There is growing sentiment in israel that theIr messiah won't come to save them unless the temple is already built.


You think there are a lot of Jews still waiting for a Messiah? What percentage? 5%?
Serotonin
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schmendeler said:

one MEEN Ag said:

craigernaught said:

one MEEN Ag said:

I think in our lifetime we see Israel take the Dome on the Rock and start to build a new temple.

Will be interesting.

Absolutely will not happen.
Why not. There is growing sentiment in israel that theIr messiah won't come to save them unless the temple is already built.


You think there are a lot of Jews still waiting for a Messiah? What percentage? 5%?

It might surprise many Americans but Israel is probably one of the least religious countries in the world. I think I've read that it's 60% atheist/agnostic.

Judaism/Jewish identity is much more about ethic identity and traditions than sola scriptura-style approach to OT that evangelicals have.
craigernaught
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one MEEN Ag said:

craigernaught said:

one MEEN Ag said:

I think in our lifetime we see Israel take the Dome on the Rock and start to build a new temple.

Will be interesting.

Absolutely will not happen.
Why not. There is growing sentiment in israel that theIr messiah won't come to save them unless the temple is already built.

Because the Palestinians exist. And because it's an unpopular idea among Jewish Israelis precisely because they find the idea of tearing down a Muslim Holy site, a subsequent uprising by Palestinians, war with all of their Muslim neighbors, and isolation from the international community who would overwhelmingly condemn such a move to be incredibly dumb and against their interests. People generally don't want violence and isolation. Many Israelis prefer the status quo.

The growing sentiment among Jewish, Muslim, and Christians in Israel and Palestine is atheism, agnosticism, and generally moving away from religiosity.
one MEEN Ag
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schmendeler said:

one MEEN Ag said:

craigernaught said:

one MEEN Ag said:

I think in our lifetime we see Israel take the Dome on the Rock and start to build a new temple.

Will be interesting.

Absolutely will not happen.
Why not. There is growing sentiment in israel that theIr messiah won't come to save them unless the temple is already built.


You think there are a lot of Jews still waiting for a Messiah? What percentage? 5%?


At least by definition - all of em.
schmendeler
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one MEEN Ag said:

schmendeler said:

one MEEN Ag said:

craigernaught said:

one MEEN Ag said:

I think in our lifetime we see Israel take the Dome on the Rock and start to build a new temple.

Will be interesting.

Absolutely will not happen.
Why not. There is growing sentiment in israel that theIr messiah won't come to save them unless the temple is already built.


You think there are a lot of Jews still waiting for a Messiah? What percentage? 5%?


At least by definition - all of em.
a "no true hebrew" argument, eh?
one MEEN Ag
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schmendeler said:

one MEEN Ag said:

schmendeler said:

one MEEN Ag said:

craigernaught said:

one MEEN Ag said:

I think in our lifetime we see Israel take the Dome on the Rock and start to build a new temple.

Will be interesting.

Absolutely will not happen.
Why not. There is growing sentiment in israel that theIr messiah won't come to save them unless the temple is already built.


You think there are a lot of Jews still waiting for a Messiah? What percentage? 5%?


At least by definition - all of em.
a "no true hebrew" argument, eh?
I wouldn't say it's a 'No True Scotsman' fallacy. The original comment I was replying to gave a descriptive answer about the current state of jewish people, and I responded with a normative answer. Whether a current Jewish population thinks a messiah hasn't come and isnt ever coming is irrelevant compared to the foundational beliefs and texts of Judaism. God promised a savior. They are all, by the tenets of their own faith, waiting on a savior.
schmendeler
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one MEEN Ag said:

schmendeler said:

one MEEN Ag said:

schmendeler said:

one MEEN Ag said:

craigernaught said:

one MEEN Ag said:

I think in our lifetime we see Israel take the Dome on the Rock and start to build a new temple.

Will be interesting.

Absolutely will not happen.
Why not. There is growing sentiment in israel that theIr messiah won't come to save them unless the temple is already built.


You think there are a lot of Jews still waiting for a Messiah? What percentage? 5%?


At least by definition - all of em.
a "no true hebrew" argument, eh?
I wouldn't say it's a 'No True Scotsman' fallacy. The original comment I was replying to gave a descriptive answer about the current state of jewish people, and I responded with a normative answer. Whether a current Jewish population thinks a messiah hasn't come and isnt ever coming is irrelevant compared to the foundational beliefs and texts of Judaism. God promised a savior. They are all, by the tenets of their own faith, waiting on a savior.
yes, but you referred to a "growing sentiment in israel", so the relative amount of people that feel that way is certainly relevant to whether your belief that israel will take the dome of the rock and reconstruct the temple has any basis as something that could feasibly happen.
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