Trump: Messianic or Demonic?

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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to Zobel • 3:33p, 7/31/20
AG
Zobel said:

Blacks vote around 90% Democrat. They make up ~13.4% of the US population. That means, as a swag, you'd expect a black republican to to be 1.3% of the population. There's one black kid in that photo of around 100 kids. Seems about right, no?

I just think the presentation of, "there's a lot of white faces in this photo therefore President Trump prefers white people" is a non sequitur.


I have no problem with the math. I'm just saying that the country is less 'white' than it used to be. When 40% or more of the country is non white and the intern classes are whiter than they've been in 40+ years, your cabinet is whiter than it's been in 40 years, and your federal judge appointments are whiter than it's been in 30 years, is it really a wonder why 90% of blacks currently vote democratic?

I'm not saying Republicans are racist. I'm saying they have a problem with being able to appeal to non whites. Same goes for other minority groups.

And I'm not advocating for pandering to minority groups. But I think that one need not be a rocket scientist to understand why blacks, Hispanics, non-Christians, and other groups would have concerns about whether the Republican message is inclusive of them.
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Zobel
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 3:47p, 7/31/20
AG
That doesn't track. 90% of blacks have been voting Democratic since 1964.



2016 was right in line with past presidential results.
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Macarthur
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 4:05p, 7/31/20
kurt vonnegut said:
Zobel said:

Blacks vote around 90% Democrat. They make up ~13.4% of the US population. That means, as a swag, you'd expect a black republican to to be 1.3% of the population. There's one black kid in that photo of around 100 kids. Seems about right, no?

I just think the presentation of, "there's a lot of white faces in this photo therefore President Trump prefers white people" is a non sequitur.


I have no problem with the math. I'm just saying that the country is less 'white' than it used to be. When 40% or more of the country is non white and the intern classes are whiter than they've been in 40+ years, your cabinet is whiter than it's been in 40 years, and your federal judge appointments are whiter than it's been in 30 years, is it really a wonder why 90% of blacks currently vote democratic?

I'm not saying Republicans are racist. I'm saying they have a problem with being able to appeal to non whites. Same goes for other minority groups.

And I'm not advocating for pandering to minority groups. But I think that one need not be a rocket scientist to understand why blacks, Hispanics, non-Christians, and other groups would have concerns about whether the Republican message is inclusive of them.
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Zobel
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 4:10p, 7/31/20
AG

Quote:
And I'm not advocating for pandering to minority groups. But I think that one need not be a rocket scientist to understand why blacks, Hispanics, non-Christians, and other groups would have concerns about whether the Republican message is inclusive of them.
Something here doesn't square.

So - what are you advocating for?

And what is the big reveal? If Republicans aren't in fact, racist, what is the underlying concern?

This is the kind of thing I find interesting, or silly, or whatever. Non-alleging allegations, implications of racism. Our entire national political discourse has become "I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin..."
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diehard03
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5:00p, 7/31/20
Quote:
I think the drumbeat effect of someone being labeled a racist matters. I wouldn't go work for someone I thought was a racist regardless of political affiliation.

what makes you think that someone trying to advance their career goals and needs the connections/clout of being a White House intern can make that choice?
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Zobel
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In reply to diehard03 • 6:00p, 7/31/20
AG
Gee, guess sometimes you may not be a racist but it's not a dealbreaker for you if your boss is, I guess.
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to Zobel • 7:45p, 7/31/20
AG
Zobel said:

Quote:
And I'm not advocating for pandering to minority groups. But I think that one need not be a rocket scientist to understand why blacks, Hispanics, non-Christians, and other groups would have concerns about whether the Republican message is inclusive of them.
Something here doesn't square.

So - what are you advocating for?

And what is the big reveal? If Republicans aren't in fact, racist, what is the underlying concern?

This is the kind of thing I find interesting, or silly, or whatever. Non-alleging allegations, implications of racism. Our entire national political discourse has become "I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin..."


Fine. I'll say it plainly. I think that, in general, Republicans do a poor job acknowledging issues and concerns of many minority groups. As a result, many minorities do not vote Republican. The Republican Party has no plan to replace a base that is going to die off in the next 10-20 years. If the party wishes to stay competitive, they will need to evolve.
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Zobel
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 8:17p, 7/31/20
AG
Do you think it's possible to have a party that addresses issues and concerns for Americans in general versus minorities in particular? And if not... how do you do that without pandering?

I'm curious what issues and concerns you think are unique to minorities, particularly on the federal level. Can you elaborate? I mean what's an example of the Democratic platform that addresses a minority issue vs a white one?
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to Zobel • 9:46p, 7/31/20
AG
Zobel said:
Do you think it's possible to have a party that addresses issues and concerns for Americans in general versus minorities in particular? And if not... how do you do that without pandering?

I'm curious what issues and concerns you think are unique to minorities, particularly on the federal level. Can you elaborate? I mean what's an example of the Democratic platform that addresses a minority issue vs a white one?
For starters, I don't think the president should call Mexican immigrants rapists and criminals. And he shouldn't make fun of a handicapped person for being handicapped. And probably shouldn't **** on the religion of Islam and threaten to shut down mosques.

Trump's entire response to BLM has been to demonize and call the protestors thugs, to send more force, and to send more tear gas. Regardless of where you fall on BLM, its very clear that Trump gives no ****s about what they are saying. . . . only that they aren't saying 'God bless Trump', and thus must be silenced.

The ideal political party does not pander to specific groups, because the ideal political party recognizes that their job is to SERVE ALL AMERICANS. Not just the ones that voted for them or the ones that fund their campaigns.

I don't think any issues are 'minority' issues. But there are issues that are more important, generally, to some groups of people. The republicans are all over the plight of the small business owner, the wealthy business man struggling with how to set up his inheritance to avoid taxes, the defense contractor looking to prolong and milk his contract, and many other people and their concerns. Some people care about the quality of public schools, the accountability of people with authority, and equal opportunity and treatment in the justice system.

The fact that blacks are sent to prison 4 times as often for use of a drug that they use as often per capita as white people shouldn't be a 'minority' issue. It should be an all of us issue. If Republicans want to increase their base, they have to at least pretend to care. . . . you know the way our ****ty Democrats do.
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Zobel
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11:48p, 7/31/20
AG
That was a nice speech but a massive dodge. I guess you couldn't really think of anything?
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to Zobel • 4:08a, 8/1/20
AG
I'm sorry if it didn't answer your question. I thought I had covered it. Ask me to explain further instead of accusing me of dodging . . . You know, let's have a grown up conversation.
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Zobel
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 9:05a, 8/1/20
AG
You said Republicans do a poor job of acknowledging the issues and concerns of many minority groups. This implies that the issues and concerns that Republicans do acknowledge are somehow not the concerns of minorities, but are only the concerns of whites.

So, I asked what these unique concerns might be. You responded, confusingly, that there are no minority issues. But then made you a false dichotomy argument - in a snarky way - contrasting what concerns with small business and "many other concerns" (such specificity!) with quality of public schools, accountability of people with authority, and justice.

//

As for the first paragraphs - which were neither relevant nor particularly explanative of your stance - you have drawn two false equivalences. One between BLM and the recent protests and rioting, and the other between President Trump and the Republican party.

The issue with the BLM conflation is clear. BLM started in 2013. I can only assume the demonization and calling protesters thugs is in regard to recent events. They're not the same thing.

The second is that President Trump is not the Republican party. It makes no sense to explain black Americans voting 90%+ Democratic in presidential elections since 1964 with "President Trump acts like a childish boor" (he does).

//

To quote a previous poster, these are not serious arguments, and so this must not be a serious conversation.

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diehard03
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9:06a, 8/1/20
Quote:
Do you think it's possible to have a party that addresses issues and concerns for Americans in general versus minorities in particular?

Not when you consider that everyone's American experience is different.
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Zobel
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In reply to diehard03 • 9:20a, 8/1/20
AG
Everyone's experience is different for anything. Is this an argument for identity politics? Or one against parties?
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Aggrad08
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In reply to Zobel • 9:41a, 8/1/20
AG
Zobel said:
Everyone's experience is different for anything. Is this an argument for identity politics? Or one against parties?


Everyone's experience is different but a life of inner city poverty and how to improve it will certainly be something more often shared by black people.

So for instance the war are drugs and our world high incarceration rate and how to deal with that is something that matters more to black people that republicans seem content to not address. Bad inner city schools are a problem for black families. And this is by the way an area republicans have opportunity to make headway. They can say that those schools are run by local democratic politicians and administrators. Let us try to fix it.

Sure low taxes and less government spending (Hilarious as this notion is for a republican to claim) are things that help across colors and subcultures. But it's no accident that republicans lost the black vote long before trump.

The republicans do plenty to speak to Wall Street, plenty to speak to big oil, plenty to speak to the military industrial complex, and medium to small businesses owners. Blacks do fall in these categories but at a dramatically lower rate...maybe close to the 10% you see vote republican.

Politicians fundamentally spend more time pandering than doing, it seems republicans are unwilling to give blacks some of the same empty promises they give everyone else. Same with Hispanics (except for bush 43).
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Zobel
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 10:07a, 8/1/20
AG
Meh, this is why I think the whole thing is silly. It becomes factions and even the people offering suggestions say - it amounts to nothing, it's pandering, but you have to pander.

The republicans lost the black vote in '64 well before the war on drugs or many of the other things you mention.

The underlying reality here is that it is pandering, and votes are bought from the public treasury, and as long as this is the paradigm being exercised by those with suffrage the system is fundamentally corrupt and broken.

Racism is in the political arena just a useful topic to enhance those identity wedges.

Forgive me, I derailed this. I don't really care to debate between Republicans or Democrats because I reject the premise of the current US political system on its face.

Edit to say one thing:

Quote:
Bad inner city schools are a problem for black families. And this is by the way an area republicans have opportunity to make headway. They can say that those schools are run by local democratic politicians and administrators. Let us try to fix it.

I think this is the key to understanding the futility. There is not a results driven feedback loop between voters and parties. If there were, you could never, and I mean never, maintain a 90%+ voting pattern for 50 years with any constituency. It's just not possible on a national level. This is evidence of the underlying problem - not evidence that republicans are racist or don't care enough about certain wedge issues for minorities.
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dermdoc
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11:55a, 8/1/20
AG
So I look at this a lot simpler. Which parties policies helped the minority communities more? Repubs or dem? And more
specifically, Obama/Biden(the presumptive dem nominee or Trump/Pence? The key is economic opportunity and I think it the answer is pretty clear.

If you have got more economic opportunity and can become successful, then all the other problems go away.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to Zobel • 12:14p, 8/2/20
AG

Quote:
You said Republicans do a poor job of acknowledging the issues and concerns of many minority groups. This implies that the issues and concerns that Republicans do acknowledge are somehow not the concerns of minorities, but are only the concerns of whites.
No it does not. This is something you've read into my post that isn't there.


Quote:
So, I asked what these unique concerns might be. You responded, confusingly, that there are no minority issues. But then made you a false dichotomy argument - in a snarky way - contrasting what concerns with small business and "many other concerns" (such specificity!) with quality of public schools, accountability of people with authority, and justice.
The appropriate fallacy here is the strawman fallacy. I did not say that one side only cares about small business and only side only cares about public schools, etc. There is overlap, but different people prioritize issues differently. And although, I am critical about some of the Republican priorities, my bigger point here is that the Republican party platform does not appear to me to be doing a good job of adjusting to a changing demographic.


Quote:
The second is that President Trump is not the Republican party. It makes no sense to explain black Americans voting 90%+ Democratic in presidential elections since 1964 with "President Trump acts like a childish boor" (he does).

That's sorta fair, I did conflate Trump with the Republican Party. It makes more sense to explain black Americans voting 90% Democratic since the 60's by pointing to the differences in political priorities between the two parties. I feel that I made this point, but maybe it would have been better to extract Trump, specifically, in that argument.

All that said, the general Republican maintained support of Trump despite him acting like a childish boor compounds this 'problem' for the Republicans. Politicians from all sides tend to 'fall in line' and defend their own. This becomes troublesome with a president who is as divisive as the one we have now. And it becomes difficult when a Republican president is so far outside on the issues that Republicans pretend to care about. Trump does not care about family values, or morality. He's not fiscally conservative. He isn't building up the middle class. He spends more time praising our global adversaries than our own allies. Now, he has dismantled some groups and some regulation, but he isn't a traditional Republican by any stretch of the imagination. His political strategy, by and large, has been to be as immature and petty to anyone who disagrees with him. Conservatives overlook the fact that he isn't actually conservative because he tweets angry things about Pelosi. And the near lack of being called out on anything by conservatives for any of this, makes it very easy for the American people to conflate the Republican Party and Trump. I don't think Trump represents traditional Republicans very well. He gets away with it because we've become a country where insulting and threatening someone you disagree with has replaced political discourse.

In other words, neither Trump nor the Republican Party, by their own separate actions, appear to be bringing minorities to the party or doing anything to convince them why their party's interests align with their own. His rhetoric and the party's lack of response is an explanation, I think, for why 90% of black Americans will continue not to vote Republican.


Quote:
To quote a previous poster, these are not serious arguments, and so this must not be a serious conversation.
Great, don't engage then.
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Zobel
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12:28p, 8/2/20
AG
Quote:
In other words, neither Trump nor the Republican Party, by their own separate actions, appear to be bringing minorities to the party or doing anything to convince them why their party's interests align with their own

You keep begging the question. I don't think you've actually shown anywhere these minority focused party planks of the Democratic Party, or how the Republican Party doesn't have these things.

This is just typical party lines, with no actual substance behind them. It went from Republicans are soft racists for supporting a racist, to they're not racist but they don't care about minority issues, to well they're just not doing enough to convince minorities they have common interests.

What interests are somehow minority specific? This is the only question that matters, and one that keeps getting ignored in favor of political platitudes.
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Ags4DaWin
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 1:10p, 8/2/20
kurt vonnegut said:
For starters, I don't think the president should call Mexican immigrants rapists and criminals. You mean this quote?
"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

How is he wrong MS13- Rapists, murders, drugs. He very clearly says that alot of people crossing the border are criminals. " And some I assume are good people. "

So he is saying here that ALOT of the people crossing the border have problems. Some are good, but alot have problems and bringing crime with them over the border. Hmmmm.... if this is inaccurate why do i see an article every few months about drug violence spilling over the border, or how MS13 has become a major problem in cities like New York and Houston.

And he shouldn't make fun of a handicapped person for being handicapped. I don't know what this references And probably shouldn't **** on the religion of Islam and threaten to shut down mosques. Islam is a ****ty religion. Its founder was a warlord, pedophile, and rapist. And okays violence against homosexuals, honor killings, rape, and female slavery. Name another religion 1) whose founder was as horrible as Muhammad and 2) Condones the same violent and reprehensible action Islam does. Islam is a scourge on the world. I am not ashamed to to say that. It is historically seconded in atrocities only to communism. The world would be better off if it was wiped from the planet.

Trump's entire response to BLM has been to demonize and call the protestors thugs, to send more force, and to send more tear gas. Regardless of where you fall on BLM, its very clear that Trump gives no ****s about what they are saying. . They are saying "destroy the nuclear family. ACAB. defund the police, and institute socialism, tear down federal buildings. WHAT OF THAT IS WORTH CONDONING? Also, the numerous videos coming out of the riots with RIOTERS setting fires, the destruction in Minneapolis, and Portland and attempts to set fire to federal courthouses prove that you are horribly misinformed regarding wjat is actually happening. . . only that they aren't saying 'God bless Trump', and thus must be silenced.

The ideal political party does not pander to specific groups, because the ideal political party recognizes that their job is to SERVE ALL AMERICANS. Not just the ones that voted for them or the ones that fund their campaigns.

I don't think any issues are 'minority' issues. But there are issues that are more important, generally, to some groups of people. The republicans are all over the plight of the small business owner, the wealthy business man struggling with how to set up his inheritance to avoid taxes, the defense contractor looking to prolong and milk his contract, and many other people and their concerns. Some people care about the quality of public schools, Democrats don't care about quality. They care about securing the teacher union vote which protects bad teachers and bad administrators from being held accountable for poor results. the worst public schools in the country are in cities which have been run by democrats and only democrats for 20 plus years. Republicans want charter schools and vouchers so that parents can send their kids to better schools. you don't hear this in the main stream media because the main stream media refuses to cover this part of the story. democrats in DC try to get rid of charter schools and vouchers every year until parents throw a **** fit over them. why is that? parents want school choice and dems want to scuttle it to protect their cash cow the teacher's unions. the accountability of people with authority, and equal opportunity and treatment in the justice system.

The fact that blacks are sent to prison 4 times as often for use of a drug that they use as often per capita as white people shouldn't be a 'minority' issue. It should be an all of us issue. trump has led the charge to reverse the democrat 90's era laws which have landed more black men and women in jail for nonviolent drug offenses. Obama did not address this issue and Clinton caused it. Trump has also commuted more nonviolent drug offenses and gotten more black people out of jail for them than any other president. you don't hear this in the msm because it doesn't fit ur narrative. If Republicans want to increase their base, they have to at least pretend to care. . . . you know the way our ****ty Democrats do.


In short, you are horribly misinformed on a variety of issues. and you have bought into the spoon fed msm narrative of alot of things. find an unbiased source of facts and you might find your opinion on alot of issues change.
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to Ags4DaWin • 8:19a, 8/5/20
AG

Quote:
You mean this quote?
"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

How is he wrong MS13- Rapists, murders, drugs. He very clearly says that alot of people crossing the border are criminals. " And some I assume are good people. "

So he is saying here that ALOT of the people crossing the border have problems. Some are good, but alot have problems and bringing crime with them over the border. Hmmmm.... if this is inaccurate why do i see an article every few months about drug violence spilling over the border, or how MS13 has become a major problem in cities like New York and Houston.

If Trumps quote above is not troublesome to you, then I do not think we will find much common ground in our discussion. Its nothing new in American politics, but after watching our predecessors make the same dehumanizing claims against immigrating Germans, Irish, Catholics, and Jews, you'd think we'd learn to be able to spot this type of fear mongering rhetoric for what it is.

Okay, Mexican immigrants are all rapists, drug dealers, and thugs. . . . but some are good. Lets move on.


Quote:
Islam is a ****ty religion. Its founder was a warlord, pedophile, and rapist. And okays violence against homosexuals, honor killings, rape, and female slavery. Name another religion 1) whose founder was as horrible as Muhammad and 2) Condones the same violent and reprehensible action Islam does. Islam is a scourge on the world. I am not ashamed to to say that. It is historically seconded in atrocities only to communism. The world would be better off if it was wiped from the planet.
This is where I say, but Christianity supports slavery, rape, and genocide - look at all these chapters and versus. And you say, you are misinterpreting it all and Jesus never did those things. And I say, but Christian religions have used this arguments for thousands of years to justify slavery, rape, and genocide. And you say, no, those people weren't 'real' Christians.

Again, I don't think we are going to find any common ground. This is such an ignorant and hateful view of Muslims that I don't know where to begin. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the religion - I agree that its nonsense and violent and troublesome all over. You just don't get to apply a double standard to them or forget who Christians have acted through history.


Quote:
They are saying "destroy the nuclear family. ACAB. defund the police, and institute socialism, tear down federal buildings. WHAT OF THAT IS WORTH CONDONING? Also, the numerous videos coming out of the riots with RIOTERS setting fires, the destruction in Minneapolis, and Portland and attempts to set fire to federal courthouses prove that you are horribly misinformed regarding wjat is actually happening.

Is that what they are saying? Or is that what the conservative message boards are saying.

"Conservatives want to kill all gay people, give all police officers immunity, and make us a fascist state. See look at this anecdotal evidence and actions of a few conservatives". See I can make stuff up too.


Quote:
trump has led the charge to reverse the democrat 90's era laws which have landed more black men and women in jail for nonviolent drug offenses. Obama did not address this issue and Clinton caused it. Trump has also commuted more nonviolent drug offenses and gotten more black people out of jail for them than any other president. you don't hear this in the msm because it doesn't fit ur narrative.

This was my favorite. I agree with most of the 2018 prison reform act. Fun fact: that law is nearly identical to a law that Democrats tried to push through on multiple occasions under the Obama administration and were blocked singlehandedly by Mitch McConnell despite pretty solid bipartisan support. Trump led the charge? Trump lead the charge? Are you F ing kidding me? I'm uninformed?

And for the record, the democrats had a huge role in those 90's era laws. They were bad laws and the bad affects land squarely on their backs. But to say Trump led this charge? Holy ***** Wow!
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Ags4DaWin
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In reply to kurt vonnegut • 8:54p, 8/6/20
To ur first point. You never addressed ANY of my points regarding MS13 and the drug violence and criminals coming over the border. Do no, until you decide to acknowledge the reality and facts of the situation we will probably not find common ground. Trump was not wrong. He was not delicate in how he said it. But the facts speak for themselves. Read the news. I could quote you facts on what percent of violent criminals in jail are illegals, what percent of violent crimes and rapes are committed by illegals, but you would just shrug it off because the facts sound mean. okay. let's move on.

To your second point on Christianity having a dark history- Its been a century and a half since ANY christians used religion to defend slavery. Throwing gays off of roofs is solely a Muslim thing. You are seriously messed up if you use things christians did a hundred and more years ago is an excuse for the atrocities the muslims are doing today. Judeo christian principles are the foundation for western society and the evolution of Christianity has resulted in the most free and equitable societies the world has ever seen. The problem with Islam is that Islam has failed to evolve. Period. They follow the same dogma and laws and violence that they followed a hundred years ago. I dare you to find me a christian that condones stoning a woman who has had premarital sex. Do you want me to quote you the statistics on how many muslims in the US believe that Sharia law should be the law of the land- honor killing and all? Also you never touch my point about the founder of Islam and his worthless history of rape, murder ad pedophilia. Interesting.

As to BLM. This is pulled directly from their website.
We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and "villages" that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

We foster a queeraffirming network.

Here is the link. Look it up.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=db4b10ff65b8d6bacf55357abb5f6ef07db88870-1596764483-0-ATFkNl8_MR871UDUKqHGVxK564_wuCAuMY_vpnhAoTaWnSwUrCRqMBPDscdooWhZHiwmGUSAjLvruPOTO0OGFmjnMKPedwt94mXMpBMTzaYUwNghajvQuSpOVoy1sC2Gg1nba7RXOKRHeRJfoezeq2xbX4JB9HA3rNv3lKxp0IeZcxsG-Z5ETyYMH1RRte4fViVdMH_t_OL30QxMZBNvAY-S05h5jzv0cZkcQrbh4NY9uFlf7nwy7eX0mDck3qALdWrYi9O5ivyH-5puWJrZTV5OSfhk1tRdp3z9JeyR1gxOFNSU7z9xGLUeRfkcqr1jGBRE75tj3w86BA5Og6e2FydjUZAJFXG14oq6VZkh5TmR

A direct quote from one of the BLM cofounders-


"The first thing, I think, is that we actually do have an ideological frame. Myself and Alicia in particular are trained organizers," she said, referring to BLM co-founder Alicia Garza.

"We are trained Marxists. We are super-versed on, sort of, ideological theories. And I think that what we really tried to do is build a movement that could be utilized by many, many black folk,"

You think I make stuff up huh? check out the video of the interview this quote comes from....word for word.


If you don't have 10 minutes skip to minute 7 where the quote can be found. The interviewer asks her about a criticism that BLM does not have an ideology to sustain it and she counters with the quote above, explaining that this is the ideological foundation of herself and the other cofounder as well as the back ground of their training and that foundation is why BLM will outlast other movements like Occupy Wallstreet.

This is not a smear job by some alt right or conservative website. this is the truth coming straight from their mouths. Everything I have stated is factual, accurate, and true.

Also I truly appreciate you calling a liar who makes stuff up while you address none of my points directly, instead dancing and hiding behind an air of false moral and intellectual superiority. Well buddy, there are the links. There is the proof. So you can see, I am not a liar. I provide links, facts, and direct quotes.

I am not a liar, as you insinuated. But you sir are a jerk for accusing me to be one without providing any proof or facts of your own.

No we have nothing in common and will find no common ground because unlike you I use facts, reason, and logic to engage in debate and conversation.

You sir do not.
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Removed:09182020
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In reply to Ags4DaWin • 11:56p, 8/6/20
AG
Watching forum 16 and a substantial portion of the right gleefully contort the George Floyd protests into an enthusiastic endorsement of Marxism is both amusing and frustrating at the volume of noise regurgitating the same bad argument.

Black Lives Matter is 2 things:
1. A pretty useful slogan to designate support for the black community's longstanding complaints of mistreatment by law enforcement.
2. A political organization founded by Marxists.

Which of those 2 things do you think the vast majority of protesters, athletes, and even Mitt Bain Capital Corporate Raider Romney mean when they say "Black Lives Matter?" If you choose Marxism, you choose wrong.
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Frok
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8:33a, 8/7/20
AG
I think the movement has largely just become political pandering.
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Macarthur
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9:25a, 8/7/20
As to BLM. This is pulled directly from their website.

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and "villages" that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

We foster a queeraffirming network.


I gotta say...If you really parse these words and think about them, I don't really have a big problem with this. I get that this may make the right's head explode, but I do think it goes back to one of the points I was making earlier.

The Black experience in America is so foreign to the vast majority of whites that we have a really hard time understanding why anyone wouldn't trust the 'Western-prescribed' model for anything. Just look at what happened to the lady and her kids the other day in Colorado. Tell me those little kids aren't scared for life and have a very warped view of law enforcement for the rest of their lives.

And I think there's another interesting point to be made and it might be for another thread. The right loves to throw around this loaded word of Marxism. I truly believe that most on the right have no clue what Marxism really is and what Marx really wrote. There is a ton of conflation of Marxism and the old Soviet Union. If you are interested in truly learning what Marxism is, there are tons of Youtube videos of Richard Wolff. Wolff is a highly intelligent defender of Marxism and after watching a few of his videos, I did not fully understand what Marxism truly is....And I will tell you, if nothing else, Marx was a pretty damn good predictor of things to come. He was right about a lot of his predictions. Now, you can certainly disagree with the solutions to these problems (and I do strongly, as I'm not a Marxist), but I do think there is a huge disservice done on the right by not being honest about what much of the left stands for.

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diehard03
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9:48a, 8/7/20
Quote:
I gotta say...If you really parse these words and think about them, I don't really have a big problem with this. I get that this may make the right's head explode, but I do think it goes back to one of the points I was making earlier.

Unless I am reading it wrong, it should bother you. it's one thing to say that we stand in the gap and support those whos nuclear families failed them. it's another to actively tear down the nuclear family structure. I completely affirm and support the former, and I cannot support the latter.

As to the Marxism point, most people are looking at his statements on religion and ending the discussion there. For me, this is the issue. All the other stuff about ownership and whatever are just economics...which I don't think God favors one over the other.
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Macarthur
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In reply to diehard03 • 10:04a, 8/7/20
I'm not convinced that the jump from the term 'disrupting' to 'actively tearing down' is warranted.
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Zobel
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In reply to Removed:09182020 • 10:05a, 8/7/20
AG
That ambiguity and conflation is a feature, not a bug.
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Aggrad08
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10:22a, 8/7/20
AG
That language bothered me when I first read it a lot. The second time a little less so it really comes down to how you interpret "disrupting". I error on the side of caution when it comes to increasing single motherhood. It's one of the best predictors of poor life outcomes there is. And I back hard away from a statement like that accordingly.

I do agree with the broad point that most using the BLM slogan are doing so as a support against police brutality and aren't particularly concerned with or even knowledgeable about some of the Marxist stuff.
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diehard03
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10:24a, 8/7/20
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I'm not convinced that the jump from the term 'disrupting' to 'actively tearing down' is warranted.

What do you mean? Are you arguing in favor that the nuclear family should not be desired, even if you have it? Or are just saying that they are using disruption in the same way I am (supporting failures only)?
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Macarthur
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In reply to diehard03 • 10:30a, 8/7/20
diehard03 said:
Quote:
I'm not convinced that the jump from the term 'disrupting' to 'actively tearing down' is warranted.

What do you mean? Are you arguing in favor that the nuclear family should not be desired, even if you have it? Or are just saying that they are using disruption in the same way I am (supporting failures only)?


The latter. But I think the term disrupt could have numerous meanings. For example, married couples get tons of advantages based on policy in this country. I don't think that's always justified.
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diehard03
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In reply to Macarthur • 10:38a, 8/7/20
I don't disagree with you on the married couples front in terms of policy. I just interpret disrupt as a wholesale change which eliminates the benefits and failures of a system. We shouldn't let this devolve into a semantics argument either.
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Macarthur
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In reply to diehard03 • 10:45a, 8/7/20
diehard03 said:
I don't disagree with you on the married couples front in terms of policy. I just interpret disrupt as a wholesale change which eliminates the benefits and failures of a system. We shouldn't let this devolve into a semantics argument either.

Agree
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to Ags4DaWin • 4:51p, 8/7/20
AG

Quote:
To ur first point. You never addressed ANY of my points regarding MS13 and the drug violence and criminals coming over the border.
What exactly was your point? That "a lot of people crossing the border are criminals" and "a lot have problems and are bringing crime with them over the border". Certainly I agree that some percentage coming across the borders are MS13, drug dealers, rapists, etc. But your point was that "a lot" of them are. What constitutes "a lot". I might think 10% is a lot. You might think 5% is a lot. Its subjective. How do you want me to address your subjective statement? I did not address ANY of your points, because your points are vague, ill-defined, and what good does it do to argue over the meaning of 'a lot'. Don't get mad at me. Make a well defined and definitive point that we can actually discuss and I'll engage. Or provide me suggestions on how I should go about trying to change your opinion on what constitutes a significant enough percentage to meet such a non-specific level of 'a lot'.


Quote:
Trump was not wrong. He was not delicate in how he said it. But the facts speak for themselves. Read the news. I could quote you facts on what percent of violent criminals in jail are illegals, what percent of violent crimes and rapes are committed by illegals, but you would just shrug it off because the facts sound mean. okay. let's move on.

Look, no one here is arguing any of this. What I think should be up for discussion are Trump's intentions with the comments that he made. I don't think there is any doubt that his intentions were to scare voters and to drum up bias and antagonism by affectively classifying Mexican immgrants and rapists and thugs. . . . except some are okay. What Trump was saying is 'vote for me or else the Mexican boogeyman will come steal your car and rape your daughters.'

Its an entirely useless way of discussing immigration in a productive manner. It ignores all of the economic drivers behind why so many immigrants do come to America and WHO is benefitting from them being here.


Quote:
To your second point on Christianity having a dark history- Its been a century and a half since ANY christians used religion to defend slavery.

Congratulations on your religion recently deciding to no longer use its teachings to justify slavery, rape, and genocide.


Quote:
Throwing gays off of roofs is solely a Muslim thing. You are seriously messed up if you use things christians did a hundred and more years ago is an excuse for the atrocities the muslims are doing today.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. I am not justifying anything Muslims are doing. I'm saying that Christianity doesn't get to forget how its behaved. And maybe judge not lest thee be judged. . . . who was it again who said that?



Quote:
Judeo christian principles are the foundation for western society and the evolution of Christianity has resulted in the most free and equitable societies the world has ever seen. The problem with Islam is that Islam has failed to evolve. Period. They follow the same dogma and laws and violence that they followed a hundred years ago.

I don't think there is any doubt that Islam is evolving. Its just several decades behind Christianity.


Quote:
I dare you to find me a christian that condones stoning a woman who has had premarital sex. Do you want me to quote you the statistics on how many muslims in the US believe that Sharia law should be the law of the land- honor killing and all?

Good point, there are no Christians in America who believe in passing laws based on their religious beliefs or to use government to prop up their religion. (please note the sarcasm).

Also, your still arguing against no one. I'm not arguing in favor of Sharia Law and accusing Christians of currently wanting to stone women.


Quote:
Also you never touch my point about the founder of Islam and his worthless history of rape, murder ad pedophilia. Interesting.
Very interesting. . . . It must meant that I'm a murderer, rapist, and pedophile. I did say it was 'nonsense and violent and troublesome all over'. You have a real bad habit of assuming that if I do not respond to your post word by word, sentence by sentence, that I'm dodging. Yes, I'm dodging your brilliant observation about Muhammad because secretly I'm his number one fan.
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kurt vonnegut
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5:05p, 8/7/20
AG

Quote:
We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and "villages" that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

I think the conversation on this quote above is pretty good. Either way, you should not confuse my statements on BLM as full support of all that they stand for and for full support of their missing statements. What I am saying is that reducing the whole movement to violent thugs and criminals is lazy and stupid. This topic started because of how I criticized Trump's reaction to BLM. Trump does not offer any intelligent perspective or input on the movement. He simply degrades them.

Whether you agree with BLM's positions or not - these are Americans with opinions and points of view. Reducing them to violent animals is not what a democratic leader does. Its what an ******* does.


Quote:
We foster a queeraffirming network.
Good.


Quote:
You think I make stuff up huh? check out the video of the interview this quote comes from....word for word.
Again, don't conflate my belief that BLM members should be treated better than Trump has spoken about them with agreement to all of their principals. Keep the goalposts where they are. We are talking about justification for Trump's actions - that's all.

Quote:
Also I truly appreciate you calling a liar who makes stuff up while you address none of my points directly, instead dancing and hiding behind an air of false moral and intellectual superiority. Well buddy, there are the links. There is the proof. So you can see, I am not a liar. I provide links, facts, and direct quotes.

I am not a liar, as you insinuated. But you sir are a jerk for accusing me to be one without providing any proof or facts of your own.

No we have nothing in common and will find no common ground because unlike you I use facts, reason, and logic to engage in debate and conversation.

You sir do not.
Well this has been fun. I feel like we had two different conversations here. From my point of view, you made lots of arguments against positions I didn't take. And then you accused me of dodging because I didn't address your arguments against the positions I didn't take.
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