Thinks Jesus Never Said

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dermdoc
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I do not think tithing is mentioned once in the NT. Israel in the OT was a theocracy so the tithe was basically a tax.

And before any incoming we do give. Joyfully.
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aggiedad20
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dermdoc said:

1 Corinthians 11:21


It's really unfair to throw this verse out there without proper context. Paul was addressing division and the church was taking the Lords Supper not as one, together, but everyone was eating as they wanted and were becoming "full" without waiting for their brethren. The word there is "methuo" which can mean "to be filled or full" and to imply the church at Corinth was getting drunk during worship is quite a stretch. Since Paul was contrasting hunger with drinking, we can assume it wasn't alcoholic. I don't think equating fermented grape juice and wine with the blood of Christ is a responsible image. Maybe I'm wrong.

There's more to discuss here but I have to run. Keep studying Doc!
dermdoc
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aggiedad20 said:

dermdoc said:

1 Corinthians 11:21


It's really unfair to throw this verse out there without proper context. Paul was addressing division and the church was taking the Lords Supper not as one, together, but everyone was eating as they wanted and were becoming "full" without waiting for their brethren. The word there is "methuo" which can mean "to be filled or full" and to imply the church at Corinth was getting drunk during worship is quite a stretch. Since Paul was contrasting hunger with drinking, we can assume it wasn't alcoholic. I don't think equating fermented grape juice and wine with the blood of Christ is a responsible image. Maybe I'm wrong.

There's more to discuss here but I have to run. Keep studying Doc!
Strong's Greek translates it as drunkenness. Just looked it up and actually the original Greek was methyei. Keep studying friend!

And this is just one example. Why would the same word be associated with abuse and drunkenness, which is a sin, yet magically is unfermented when mentioned elsewhere?
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Zobel
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The word is drunk, not full. Where are you getting the definition to be made full from?

https://biblehub.com/greek/3184.htm

Barne's notes on the Bible says
And another is drunken - The word used here (methuo) means properly to become inebriated, or intoxicated; and there is no reason for understanding it here in any other sense. There can be no doubt that the apostle meant to say, that they ate and drank to excess; and that their professed celebration of the Lord's Supper became a mere revel.
PacifistAg
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Zobel said:

The word is drunk, not full. Where are you getting the definition to be made full from?

https://biblehub.com/greek/3184.htm

Barne's notes on the Bible says
And another is drunken - The word used here (methuo) means properly to become inebriated, or intoxicated; and there is no reason for understanding it here in any other sense. There can be no doubt that the apostle meant to say, that they ate and drank to excess; and that their professed celebration of the Lord's Supper became a mere revel.
I don't know. I read that it could also mean that they just drank a ton of Welch's grape juice.
dermdoc
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And I do not see how it is a stretch to think the Christians at the Church of Corinth were getting drunk at the Lord's Supper considering the other stuff Paul talked to them about.
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aggiedad20
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So if Timothy was already drinking alcoholic wine every week why would Paul advise him to drink more alcoholic wine?

Simply because he was ill?

And why do you think Christ would have instituted alcoholic wine at the Last Supper (during Feast of Unleavened) when leaven, used in ancient fermentation, was forbidden to be in homes?
Thaddeus73
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AG
Jesus changed 6 stone jars holding 30 gallons of water each into wine...Which proves He must have been Catholic!
aggiedad20
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Thaddeus73 said:

Jesus changed 6 stone jars holding 30 gallons of water each into wine...Which proves He must have been Catholic!


And all the baptists said amen the antichrist is coming soon
dermdoc
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aggiedad20 said:

So if Timothy was already drinking alcoholic wine every week why would Paul advise him to drink more alcoholic wine?

Simply because he was ill?

And why do you think Christ would have instituted alcoholic wine at the Last Supper (during Feast of Unleavened) when leaven, used in ancient fermentation, was forbidden to be in homes?

Who was talking about those?
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aggiedad20
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Those what?
dermdoc
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The two examples you mentioned.
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ramblin_ag02
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Quote:

And why do you think Christ would have instituted alcoholic wine at the Last Supper (during Feast of Unleavened) when leaven, used in ancient fermentation, was forbidden to be in homes?
Where do you get this idea? Jews always use alcoholic wine during Passover and always have.
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dermdoc
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Mogen David wine is kosher and made specifically for Passover.
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Ol_Ag_02
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ramblin_ag02 said:

I want to play.

Things Jesus never said:

I am the symbolic gate; whoever symbolically enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find symbolic pasture.

Jesus' picture by the logic above:





Thank you for this.... it was truly awesome. Just a slam dunk on a stupid argument.
PA24
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The wine of old was nothing like today's wine, back then, the end produce was a grape paste which you added water to. It was extremely weak in alcohol, maybe 2%. Was used to sanitize the water more so than to get a buzz. Wine was more of a water enhancer than an adult beverage.

Back then, mixed drink is the drink that is compatible to the the wine of today. That would get you drunk.

Alcohol is a destroyer of marriages, careers, and Ol Satan loves to use a good representative of the community Church to promote it to the weak minded individual.

God blesses but he also takes away, be careful of justifying a craving of the flesh by claiming Paul encouraged having a few.

If you are drinking more than 2 drinks a week consistently, you have a drinking problem.

Don't let the bottle become your best friend.....abstain from drinking alcohol of any type.
Zobel
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Almost nothing in this post is correct. Impressive.
PA24
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I will get my references per what I posted.

I know my position is not very popular but fact of the matter alcohol was not promoted by Christ or his followers.
Christians should not be promoting alcohol.

Alcohol causes more problem in families than any other substance.

powerbelly
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Every scholarly article on wine in biblical times puts the ABV at 5-20%. I would be very interested to see something that indicates that the research is incorrect.
PA24
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I will do that when I get home..



Very unpopular subject and I will never post on it again. I use to love a couple glasses of wine every evening but no more and haven't in years. Alcohol is poison and a path for Satan. So many lives destroyed, so many families ruined.

Common sense needs to also apply here. Every Christian Knows the danger of alcohol, doesn't matter if it is mask in grape juice it is still alcohol.

I am as wretched as they come, a clay pot....not preaching to anyone but Christian's should not be promoting alcohol.




Zobel
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Every argument against alcohol as a path for abuse can be made for any aspect of creation.

He gave us wine to gladden our hearts.
PA24
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Zobel said:

Every argument against alcohol as a path for abuse can be made for any aspect of creation.

He gave us wine to gladden our hearts.
........this is one of those topics that I shouldn't have started but I will get the data
PA24
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Highlighted talking points from the article below.

Today's wine is nothing like wine from the Bible. No sugar added or very little if any yeast. No distillation processes and the key here is they mixed it or diluted it with water.

Now if you want to drink unmixed 12% wine that is your business but you should be aware that other opinions are out there.


from the link below, highlighted points of interest:

So, to start with, we're talking about a different amount of this available; we're talking about a different alcoholic content. Now, there's something else you need to understand - very important: wine in ancient times was boiled or mixed; boiled or mixed - and I'm not just telling you this because Bible writers talk about it. I'm telling you this is secular history. Everybody knows this was the case. And if you take wine that was typically two to four percent, and you boil it, what happens to the alcohol? It's gone. What you have left is a paste, that can then be remixed with water.

On the other hand, if you just mix it with water - three parts to one would have been the average, three parts water to one part of wine - you dilute the alcohol content significantly. And I say, in ancient times, the wine was either boiled - and out went all of its alcohol content - or it was mixed. Professor Samuel Lee of Cambridge University says that yayin - the Hebrew word for wine - or oinos - the Greek word - does not refer only to intoxicating liquor made by fermentation, but both words - but in particular, his interest is the word yayin - refers to a thick, un-intoxicating syrup or paste produced by boiling to make it storable.

This thick substance was stored, then, in skins. It is a thick syrup. It is, somebody said, to the grade of jelly, and once it's put in a skin that's supple, it can be squeezed out of the skin onto bread - like your grape jelly on bread - or dissolved in water and mixed to become a drink. So says the professor at Cambridge, and he draws this from a description of this very process by Pliny, the ancient Roman historian, who said this is what they did; Pliny talks about an un-intoxicating wine.

Another ancient writer from Athens - and here's a direct quote that came from a wonderful article by Robert Stein - it says, "The gods" - this is a Greek writer in Athens - "The gods have revealed wine to mortals to be the greatest blessing for those who use it right, but for those who use it without measure, the reverse. For it gives food to them that take it, and strength and mind and body. In medicine, it is most beneficial. It can be mixed with liquid and drugs, and it brings aid to the wounded.


"In daily life, to those who mix and drink it moderately, it gives good cheer. But if you overstep the bounds, it brings violence; mix it half and half, and you get madness; unmixed, bodily collapse." Plutarch, in his Symposiacs, says as a beverage, it was always thought of as a mixed drink. Quote - "'We call a mixture wine, although the larger of the components is water.' The ratio of water might vary," says Robert Stein, "but only barbarians drank it unmixed, and a mixture of wine and water of equal parts was seen as strong drink" - equal parts, half water, half wine, was strong drink "and frowned on.

"The term wine" - or oinos "in the ancient world, then, did not mean wine as we understand it today, but wine mixed with water or from a paste, completely without any intoxicating power because it had all been boiled out." Strong drink would be half and half, or unmixed, and this was unacceptable to a cultured person, to drink strong drink; unacceptable. A document called The Apostolic Tradition indicates that the early church followed this custom, serving only mixed wine, whether from a syrup paste or a liquid base.

The wine, then, of biblical times could well have been unintoxicating, from a syrup base, or marginally intoxicating, because its fermentation had been diluted so much in the mixture with water. Taking a very conservative estimate, for example, if water is three-to-one mixed with wine, the level of alcohol would be between 2.25 and 2.75 percent, which is well under the 3.2 percent alcohol necessary to be classified as an intoxicating drink. Four to one would take you down to 1.8 to 2.2, and the only way you could possibly get drunk would be just to consume volumes of it.

Now, what are we saying? Homer, Plato, Pliny, and other ancient writers detail the practice of diluting wine with water, of also boiling it down to a paste. Homer's Odyssey - you remember that from your English Lit class, or from your European Lit class? Homer's Odyssey refers to mixtures as high as twenty to one; twenty parts water, one part fermented juice. The Greeks wrote of those who drank undiluted wine as barbarians. The Jewish Mishnah - the Mishnah is the codification of Jewish laws that are imposed upon the Jewish people.

In the Mishnah, four cups of wine were poured out for the Passover, mixed with water, two or three parts. So, the wine consumed in the Passover - according to the Mishnah called modzug - is two or three parts water; and again, commonly wine was boiled so that all the alcohol evaporated. The residue was a paste mixed with water, alcohol free - common in Rome, common in Egypt, common in Jewish life - called yayin mevushal by the Jews. When you look at the Scripture, you see this. Song of Solomon talks the beautiful talk between the bridegroom and the bride about mixed wine, mixing wine.

Proverbs 23:30 talks about mixing wine. Isaiah 65:11, mixed wine. In Proverbs 9, there is a statement there that relates to this, in the category of wisdom, being wise; Proverbs 9: "Wisdom has built her house" - verse 1 - "Hewn out her seven pillars; prepared her food and mixed her wine." "Come, eat my food" - verse 5 - "And drink the wine I've mixed." Wisdom mixes the wine; mixed wine is important in the Bible; unmixed, strong drink, is dangerous.


They needed liquids, and there was always the danger that if you just kept taking it in, not only would you run out of the supply, but you would of necessity put yourself in a position to be drunk. That's why sometimes it was mixed up to twenty to one. But number four - and here's the really critical thing to understand - wine was mixed with water as an antiseptic. The purpose of mixing the wine with the water was to sanitize the water; to sanitize the water - that's what's really going on - to make water safe, 'cause you can't live without water.


https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/80-380/christians-and-alcohol
ramblin_ag02
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I keep hoping that one day someone making bold historical claims on this board will link to a historical, archeological, or anthropology journal, a review written by a expert researcher, or a new textbook that is updated with the cutting advances in these fields. Time and time again I get my hopes up, hoping to learn some new controversy that turns my understanding of history on its head. But time and time again I click the link only to find a church website. After 15 years I should know better.
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PA24
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Think I am done here on this subject.


Zobel
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The Apostolic Tradition reference is 100% off. The mixed wine is the mingled cup, wine mixed with water, which is called the zeon - boiled or zeal. Wine is mixed with hot water during the preparation of the Eucharist, something that was always done and is still done today, every liturgy. But the wine is wine.

There are tons and tons of ancient sources about wine - normal wine, not some wine paste concentrate. How to store it so it doesn't spoil, how to revive it if it did spoil or sour, which wines were better, different types, and so on.

Your two claims seem to be conflicting - on one hand, you say the wine was nonalcoholic, but on the other you say it was diluted to not get you drunk. Well, which is it?

We know that to drink certain wines undiluted was considered a bit barbarous or rough - not polite, not genteel. Like maybe the same today as drinking moonshine neat. But that doesn't mean drinking wine is evil or wrong or that the early church was full of teetotalers.

At any rate we have centuries of patristic texts, with all kinds of guidance. Never does one advise abstaining entirely from wine, only moderation. For example on ancient monastic letter comes to mind. A monk writes an elder describing how he is more or less so frustrated during lent with the monks under his care the only way he can relax and not lose his temper by the end of the day is a glass of wine. Wine, of course, being one of the things we fast from. The elder (now a saint) writes back saying, paraphrased, it's better to have two glasses than to sin (in anger).

Things like this and thousands of other classical - pre Christian and Christian - writings make zero sense in the paradigm you present.
Zobel
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AG
Quick example comes to mind. The Pharisees accuse Jesus of being a drunkard. If the wine if the time was nonalcoholic, what sense can we make of this?

Or John 2:10 - the host brings the good wine first, then the cheap wine when everyone is drunk. This is nonsense if the wine isn't alcoholic and doubly illogical if the good wine Christ Jesus miraculously provided was nonalcoholic. How could good wine like that get people drunk to serve the cheap after??
PA24
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AG
Zobel said:

The Apostolic Tradition reference is 100% off. The mixed wine is the mingled cup, wine mixed with water, which is called the zeon - boiled or zeal. Wine is mixed with hot water during the preparation of the Eucharist, something that was always done and is still done today, every liturgy. But the wine is wine.

There are tons and tons of ancient sources about wine - normal wine, not some wine paste concentrate. How to store it so it doesn't spoil, how to revive it if it did spoil or sour, which wines were better, different types, and so on.

Your two claims seem to be conflicting - on one hand, you say the wine was nonalcoholic, but on the other you say it was diluted to not get you drunk. Well, which is it?

We know that to drink certain wines undiluted was considered a bit barbarous or rough - not polite, not genteel. Like maybe the same today as drinking moonshine neat. But that doesn't mean drinking wine is evil or wrong or that the early church was full of teetotalers.

At any rate we have centuries of patristic texts, with all kinds of guidance. Never does one advise abstaining entirely from wine, only moderation. For example on ancient monastic letter comes to mind. A monk writes an elder describing how he is more or less so frustrated during lent with the monks under his care the only way he can relax and not lose his temper by the end of the day is a glass of wine. Wine, of course, being one of the things we fast from. The elder (now a saint) writes back saying, paraphrased, it's better to have two glasses than to sin (in anger).

Things like this and thousands of other classical - pre Christian and Christian - writings make zero sense in the paradigm you present.
I am done with this subject, very personal and not a popular stance but it is my believe.

I am so proud of the author of this article, Dr. John MacAuthur who I listen to faithfully every week has written the state of Ca. and told him his church answers to Christ and not Caesar, they would not be closing.

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3126635


https://www.gty.org/library/blog/B200723/

Zobel
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AG
Look I respect that you choose to abstain. But there is a very big difference between what is good for you and what is good for all. Great pastoral care should be exercised in making these kind of statements. Too much wine for one may be a sip. But this doesn't make wine evil, it makes humans imperfect and marred by sin.

I think Christians should set the example to others in proper use of creation. We should not starve ourselves because gluttony exists. But neither should we be gluttons because God created wonderful things to eat.
 
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