I too, know Jesus was too stupid to speak in metaphors like we all are capable of every day.

Thaddeus73 said:

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In the writings we have from the martyrs in the Coliseum and other execution places, they all agree that the Eucharist is the real blood and real body of Jesus, like he said in John 6.

Ok I am curious, if we have to have the body and the blood, why is the just the body good enough?

You certainly have a point when it comes to Greeks, Romans and Hellenized Jews. However, the physical/spiritual dualism of Plato is a literally foreign concept to most Jews. Judaism then and now is the most physical, earthly, this-moment-focused religion I can think of. To the point that a great number of Jews at the time of Jesus didn't even believe in an afterlife.

Just saying that most of the people listening to Jesus talk about drinking his blood and eating his flesh would have either taken it literally or as a parable. Those who took it literally would have left. I'm not trying to make any particular comment on what Jesus meant when he said it.

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If Jesus wanted people to literally eat his flesh and drink his blood then he's advocating cannibalism.

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That is certainly what his disciples thought in John 6:66, which is why they left him. In the bible to "eat someone's flesh" was a pejorative, which means you have conquered your enemy and will "eat his flesh." That's what they got wrong.

From Catholicanswers:

" In Psalm 27:1-2, Isaiah 9:18-20, Isaiah 49:26, Micah 3:3, and Revelation 17:6-16, we find these words (eating flesh and drinking blood) understood as symbolic for persecuting or assaulting someone. Jesus' Jewish audience would never have thought he was saying, "Unless you persecute and assault me, you shall not have life in you." Jesus never encouraged sin. This may well be another reason why the Jews took Christ at his word."

But he was not talking about cannibalism, which is eating dead flesh from a dead person. He was talking about eating live flesh and drinking live blood from a very much alive, for all time, Jesus Christ. Transubstantiation is not cannibalism, but a spiritual transformation of one substance to another, namely God Himself. The changing of water to blood by Moses and water to wine by Jesus is a precursor of transubstantiation of bread and wine into the actual body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ.

The damnation of mankind by eating forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil was thus overcome by mankind eating the eucharist, the fruit of the tree of life known as the cross.

Historically, no Christian challenged this until the 9th Century AD.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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You certainly have a point when it comes to Greeks, Romans and Hellenized Jews. However, the physical/spiritual dualism of Plato is a literally foreign concept to most Jews. Judaism then and now is the most physical, earthly, this-moment-focused religion I can think of. To the point that a great number of Jews at the time of Jesus didn't even believe in an afterlife.

Just saying that most of the people listening to Jesus talk about drinking his blood and eating his flesh would have either taken it literally or as a parable. Those who took it literally would have left. I'm not trying to make any particular comment on what Jesus meant when he said it.

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I'm speaking mainly on the early church since there wasn't any major discussion on it for at least a millennium. That should speak volumes in itself. Think about how there was no argument or concern about the eucharist in the ecumenical councils. Plato and Plotinus had a huge influence on early Christians. "A symbol in ancient society is not primarily a pointer that represents something apart from the symbol. A symbol participates in that which it represents. Ancient thought does not distinguish in the way in which modern popular thinking does between symbol and reality. In antiquity, the symbol is the presence of that which it represents and mediates participation in that reality."- Crockett, Eucharist

Germanic tribes that came to dominate the western Roman Empire did not have the same view on symbolism. So at that point it was lost. As far as the Jews go, there's no way they saw the world in the same "literal" fashion that we do. It obviously wasn't platonic but even when you read the Old Testament it is filled with ancient symbolism.

Edit- With that said yes there were some who did question the early church on cannibalism. Still I just don't see that it was a huge issue with the predominant worldview in place. Odd that it wasn't a major concern until much later.

Or a direct quote from John chapter 6.

He never told the poor to steal/take from the rich. He told the rich to GIVE to the poor.

Are the rich doing that?

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb said:

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Are the rich doing that?

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Why do you ask?

Because my statement wasn't a judgement on what the poor are doing, but what the rich are not.

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"Judge the rich for their inaction" isn't a bible verse I remember reading.

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it's not. But he certainly indicated that He would judge them according to their inaction...

This is a strange card to play.

He can judge, yes.

We don't know of others action or inaction. We must never condemn or judge others.

k2aggie07 said:

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He can judge, yes.

We don't know of others action or inaction. We must never condemn or judge others.

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This is one of the most asinine positions I've ever seen and since you repeatedly insist Christians should absolutely never judge, I assume you truly believe it. I doubt you really have cookies and milk ready for those who might actually wish to do you or your loved ones harm. But the truth is, everyone makes countless judgements in daily life and this "never judge" attitude is politically correct nonsense, not to mention anti-biblical. Christ teaches us that HYPOCRITICAL judgment is wrong and throughout Scripture He teaches us to not allow certain individuals into our homes and commands His disciples to go and teach those who are lost. Those commands can't be obeyed without at least a basic level of judgment on our part.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you? After all, contextual application of Scripture isn't your area of expertise, imho.

He who seeks the forgiveness of his sins loves humility. But he who judges another strengthens his own evil deeds against himself.
-St. Mark the Ascetic

To judge sins is the business of one who is sinless, but who is sinless except God? Who ever thinks about the multitude of his own sins in his heart never wants to make the sins of others a topic of conversation. To judge a man who has gone astray is a sign of pride, and God resists the proud. On the other hand, one who every hour prepares himself to give answer for his own sins will not quickly lift up his head to examine the mistakes of others.
-St. Gennadius of Constantinople

A discerning man, when he eats grapes, takes only the ripe ones and leaves the sour. Thus also the discerning mind carefully marks the virtues which he sees in any person. A mindless man seeks out the vices and failings ... Even if you see someone sin with your own eyes, do not judge; for often even your eyes are deceived.
-St. John of the Ladder

A dog is better than I am, for he has love and does not judge.
-St. Xanthias

Do not judge anyone, forgive everyone. Consider yourself worse than everyone in the world and you will be saved
-St. Joseph of Optina

A man can know nothing about the judgments of God. He alone is the one who takes account of all and is able to judge the hearts of each one of us, as He alone is our Master. Truly it happens that a man may do a certain thing which seems to be wrong out of simplicity, and there may be something about it which makes more amends to God than your whole life; how are you going to sit in judgment and constrict your own soul? And should it happen that he has fallen away, how do you know how much and how well he fought; how much blood he sweated before he did it? Perhaps so little fault can be found in him that God can look on his action as if it were just, for God looks on his labor and all the struggle he had before he did it, and has pity on him. And do you know this, and what God has spared him for? Are you going to condemn him for this and ruin your own soul? And how do you know what tears he has shed about it before God? You may well know about the sin but do you not know about the repentance?
-St. Dorotheos of Gaza

If you see your neighbor in sin, don't look only at this, but also think about what he has done or does that is good, and infrequently trying this in general, while not partially judging, you will find that he is better than you."
-St. Basil the Great

Do no evil to anyone, and do not judge anyone. Observe this and you will be saved.
-Abba Macarius the Great

If you want to find rest here below, and hereafter, in all circumstances say 'Who am I?' and do not judge anyone.
-Abba Joseph of Panephysis

The monk [or Christian] must die to his neighbor and never judge him at all, in any way whatever....If we are on the watch to see our own faults, we shall not see those of our neighborTo die to one's neighbor is this: To bear your own faults and not to pay attention to anyone else wondering whether they are good or bad. Do no harm to anyone, do not think anything bad in your heart towards anyone, do not scorn the man who does evilDo not rail against anyone, but rather say, 'God knows each one.' Do not agree with him who slanders, do not rejoice at his slander, and do not hate him who slanders his neighbor.
-St Moses the Black

Correct and judge justly those who are subject to you, but judge no one else.
-Abba Macarius of Alexandria

If a man has attained to that which the Apostle speaks of "to the pure, everything is pure," (Titus 1.15) he sees himself less than all creatures. A brother asked him, 'How can I deem myself less then a murderer?' The old man said, When a man has really comprehend this saying, if he sees a man committing a murder he says, "He has only committed this one sin but I commit sins every day."
-Abba Poemen

The uninspired musings from antiquity have fatuous, minuscule influence on me or the Lord's church in 2020. Christians are to judge RIGHTEOUS judgment. You, my friend, are once again erroneous in your understanding and application of God's Word.

We'll have to agree to disagree I guess.

k2aggie07 said:

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Unfortunately the word judge in English has multiple meanings depending on the context. Making judgments about something, as in, using our faculty of intellect and experience to make considered decisions, is obviously an integral part of living, and clearly we do it every day. Even discerning the difference between right and wrong is a necessary and good thing for a Christian to do. St Paul instructs to "test all things; hold fast to what is good" and he echoes Amos (5:15) and the Psalmist (97:10) when he tells us to "hate evil."

We are supposed to distinguish by testing, to discern what is good (Phil 1:10) and Hebrews 5:14 says the mature can, through constant use, train their senses to discern what is good and evil.

On the other hand, we are told that we have no excuse if we judge, for by that which we judge we condemn ourselves (Romans 2:1). We are told to not pass judgments on other's reasoning (Romans 14:1). Most importantly, the Lord simply says both "Do not judge" and "do not condemn" in Luke 6:37. I do not see how this could be more clear. It says nothing about hypocritical judgment, but simply, "do not."

As Jame says - "Do not speak against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against his brother or judges his brother speaks against the Law and judges the Law. But if you judge the Law, you are not a doer of the Law, but a judge. There is one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?"

Simply put - a Christian should never, ever, ever, judge or condemn someone.

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Fyi...I'm not ignorant to the BIBLICAL meaning of the Greek word krino found 114 !times in the NT.

Good try though...