Atheist warns: Without Christianity, we are heading into an impenetrable darkness

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jkag89
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.Atheists in Praise of Christianity?
By Jonathon Van Maren - The Stream

Quote:

While studying the ancient world, Holland writes, he realized something. Simply, the ancients were cruel, and their values utterly foreign to him. The Spartans routinely murdered "imperfect" children. The bodies of slaves were treated like outlets for the physical pleasure of those with power. Infanticide was common. The poor and the weak had no rights.

In fact, Holland points out that without Christianity, the Western world would not exist. Even the claims of the social justice warriors who despise the faith of their ancestors rest on a foundation of Judeo-Christian values. Those who make arguments based on love, tolerance, and compassion are borrowing fundamentally Christian arguments. If the West had not become Christian, Holland writes, "no one would have gotten woke."
Quote:

Holland's passionate defense of Christianity is fascinating because it appears to be part of a trend. As the West becomes definitively post-Christian, many secularists are suddenly realizing that Christianity may have been more valuable than they thought. While many including Holland cannot quite bring themselves to believe Christianity is true, they are starting to believe that Christianity might be necessary.

Douglas Murray, the conservative author and columnist, is also an atheist. In recent years, however, he has started to warn that the decline of Christianity is a dangerous thing. Society now faces three options. First, Murray says, is to reject the idea that all human life is precious. "Another is to work furiously to nail down an atheist version of the sanctity of the individual." And if that doesn't work? "Then there is only one other place to go. Which is back to faith, whether we like it or not."


UTExan
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Impossible. I have been assured America is evil to its core and non-Christian to boot.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
Ordhound04
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AG
If we're being fair, even if we believe all codes of morality are merely a social construct, and if western Type mindsets are going to develop one from scratch, minus a few things, it's gonna look a heck of a lot like Christian moral and social teachings.

I would say even the deists of old seemed to understand that.
Martin Q. Blank
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Ordhound04 said:

If we're being fair, even if we believe all codes of morality are merely a social construct, and if western Type mindsets are going to develop one from scratch, minus a few things, it's gonna look a heck of a lot like Christian moral and social teachings.

I would say even the deists of old seemed to understand that.

"Western type mindsets" are built on the Christian worldview. So there's no developing one from scratch.
Serotonin
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AG
I agree with their social assessments but I always get nervous about playing the "sociology of religion" line on behalf of Christianity.

What if the data show that some kind of state church liberal Lutheranism results in the most stable and prosperous society, like in Scandinavia? Does that mean that we should all join liberal Lutheran denominations?
craigernaught
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I pretty much stop reading any article when it says "social justice warrior".

Sorry. Unrelated.
Ordhound04
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Ordhound04 said:

If we're being fair, even if we believe all codes of morality are merely a social construct, and if western Type mindsets are going to develop one from scratch, minus a few things, it's gonna look a heck of a lot like Christian moral and social teachings.

I would say even the deists of old seemed to understand that.

"Western type mindsets" are built on the Christian worldview. So there's no developing one from scratch.
I mean, yes, and kinda no. We could look at the western type mindset as even pre-christian Greek philosophy. An Aristotelian type of deism, that doesn't pull from Christianity, will sure look a lot like Christianity, ethically speaking.

I honestly don't know enough about eastern philosophy or religions to say that those ethics would almost uncannily line up with Christian ethics.
Martin Q. Blank
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Ordhound04 said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Ordhound04 said:

If we're being fair, even if we believe all codes of morality are merely a social construct, and if western Type mindsets are going to develop one from scratch, minus a few things, it's gonna look a heck of a lot like Christian moral and social teachings.

I would say even the deists of old seemed to understand that.

"Western type mindsets" are built on the Christian worldview. So there's no developing one from scratch.
I mean, yes, and kinda no. We could look at the western type mindset as even pre-christian Greek philosophy. An Aristotelian type of deism, that doesn't pull from Christianity, will sure look a lot like Christianity, ethically speaking.

I honestly don't know enough about eastern philosophy or religions to say that those ethics would almost uncannily line up with Christian ethics.
uhhh...Spartans were a prime example in the article as to what not to emulate.
expresswrittenconsent
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Ordhound04 said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Ordhound04 said:

If we're being fair, even if we believe all codes of morality are merely a social construct, and if western Type mindsets are going to develop one from scratch, minus a few things, it's gonna look a heck of a lot like Christian moral and social teachings.

I would say even the deists of old seemed to understand that.

"Western type mindsets" are built on the Christian worldview. So there's no developing one from scratch.
I mean, yes, and kinda no. We could look at the western type mindset as even pre-christian Greek philosophy. An Aristotelian type of deism, that doesn't pull from Christianity, will sure look a lot like Christianity, ethically speaking.

I honestly don't know enough about eastern philosophy or religions to say that those ethics would almost uncannily line up with Christian ethics.
uhhh...Spartans were a prime example in the article as to what not to emulate.

Yeah and you certainly can't find any Christian sects that murder children.

There also aren't any MAJOR Christian religions that celebrate celibacy and also have a several hundred year tradition of raping boys.
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Ordhound04
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expresswrittenconsent said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Ordhound04 said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Ordhound04 said:

If we're being fair, even if we believe all codes of morality are merely a social construct, and if western Type mindsets are going to develop one from scratch, minus a few things, it's gonna look a heck of a lot like Christian moral and social teachings.

I would say even the deists of old seemed to understand that.

"Western type mindsets" are built on the Christian worldview. So there's no developing one from scratch.
I mean, yes, and kinda no. We could look at the western type mindset as even pre-christian Greek philosophy. An Aristotelian type of deism, that doesn't pull from Christianity, will sure look a lot like Christianity, ethically speaking.

I honestly don't know enough about eastern philosophy or religions to say that those ethics would almost uncannily line up with Christian ethics.
uhhh...Spartans were a prime example in the article as to what not to emulate.

Yeah and you certainly can't find any Christian sects that murder children.

There also aren't any MAJOR Christian religions that celebrate celibacy and also have a several hundred year tradition of raping boys.


Lol, ok, in the denominations where sexual abuse of minors has happened, It's not celebrated, nor normalized. And I'm sure that pederastic relationships Where not the norm in say pagan Greece and Rome, as opposed to after it christianized, right?.....oh wait.....

The reality is that aspects of ethics are found in many worldviews and religions. My point was that the ideal of the ethical life was certainly conceptualIzed in western culture, but I can also stipulate that it's praxis was more likely to be fulfilled by Christian religiosity.
Sb1540
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JJMt said:

Quote:

I honestly don't know enough about eastern philosophy or religions to say that those ethics would almost uncannily line up with Christian ethics.
The Indian Christian philosopher, Vishal Mangalwadi, has written an entire book about how eastern philosophy and religions are nothing like Christianity. His book is entitled "The Book that Made Your World" and goes into thorough historical detail as to how what we hold valuable in Western culture is derived almost entirely from Christianity, and those same values are alien to eastern philosophies and religions. In fact, the modern achievements of which the East is most proud, such as India's universities, were founded by Protestant missionaries.

The idea of human rights is uniquely Western and, more specifically, Christian.
About time someone talks about Tom Holland on here. His book Dominion is incredible.
Sb1540
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Ordhound04 said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Ordhound04 said:

If we're being fair, even if we believe all codes of morality are merely a social construct, and if western Type mindsets are going to develop one from scratch, minus a few things, it's gonna look a heck of a lot like Christian moral and social teachings.

I would say even the deists of old seemed to understand that.

"Western type mindsets" are built on the Christian worldview. So there's no developing one from scratch.
I mean, yes, and kinda no. We could look at the western type mindset as even pre-christian Greek philosophy. An Aristotelian type of deism, that doesn't pull from Christianity, will sure look a lot like Christianity, ethically speaking.

I honestly don't know enough about eastern philosophy or religions to say that those ethics would almost uncannily line up with Christian ethics.


Clement of Alexandria
". . . before the advent of the Lord, philosophy was necessary to the Greeks for righteousness. And now it becomes conducive to piety; being a kind of preparatory training to those who attain to faith . . . . For God is the cause of all good things, but of some primarily, as of the Old and New Testaments; and of others by consequence, as philosophy. Perchance, too, philosophy was given to the Greeks directly and primarily . . . . For [philosophy] was a schoolmaster to bring 'the Hellenic mind . . . to Christ.' Philosophy, therefore, was a preparation, paving the way for him who is perfected in Christ." (Emphasis added)

Eusebius of Caesarea

"[Plato is] the only Greek who has attained the porch of (Christian) truth."

Augustine

"The utterance of Plato, the most pure and bright in all philosophy, scattering the clouds of error . . ."

"I found that whatever truth I had read [in the Platonists] was [in the writings of Paul] combined with the exaltation of thy grace."


Serotonin
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AG
Larry Lajitas said:

JJMt said:

Quote:

I honestly don't know enough about eastern philosophy or religions to say that those ethics would almost uncannily line up with Christian ethics.
The Indian Christian philosopher, Vishal Mangalwadi, has written an entire book about how eastern philosophy and religions are nothing like Christianity. His book is entitled "The Book that Made Your World" and goes into thorough historical detail as to how what we hold valuable in Western culture is derived almost entirely from Christianity, and those same values are alien to eastern philosophies and religions. In fact, the modern achievements of which the East is most proud, such as India's universities, were founded by Protestant missionaries.

The idea of human rights is uniquely Western and, more specifically, Christian.
About time someone talks about Tom Holland on here. His book Dominion is incredible.
Dominion looks excellent, I'm going to have to check that out.
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mesocosm
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AG
jkag89 said:

.Atheists in Praise of Christianity?
By Jonathon Van Maren - The Stream

Quote:

While studying the ancient world, Holland writes, he realized something. Simply, the ancients were cruel, and their values utterly foreign to him. The Spartans routinely murdered "imperfect" children. The bodies of slaves were treated like outlets for the physical pleasure of those with power. Infanticide was common. The poor and the weak had no rights.

In fact, Holland points out that without Christianity, the Western world would not exist. Even the claims of the social justice warriors who despise the faith of their ancestors rest on a foundation of Judeo-Christian values. Those who make arguments based on love, tolerance, and compassion are borrowing fundamentally Christian arguments. If the West had not become Christian, Holland writes, "no one would have gotten woke."
Quote:

Holland's passionate defense of Christianity is fascinating because it appears to be part of a trend. As the West becomes definitively post-Christian, many secularists are suddenly realizing that Christianity may have been more valuable than they thought. While many including Holland cannot quite bring themselves to believe Christianity is true, they are starting to believe that Christianity might be necessary.

Douglas Murray, the conservative author and columnist, is also an atheist. In recent years, however, he has started to warn that the decline of Christianity is a dangerous thing. Society now faces three options. First, Murray says, is to reject the idea that all human life is precious. "Another is to work furiously to nail down an atheist version of the sanctity of the individual." And if that doesn't work? "Then there is only one other place to go. Which is back to faith, whether we like it or not."





Nonsense. The steady decline of Christianity is a good thing for humanity.
Cancelled
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Christianity has done so much for the world. However, I don't understand the need for a higher power for a person to have morality and love for his fellow man.
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expresswrittenconsent
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Theyre also incredibly rare within Christianity.
Quad Dog
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I think you could read those quotes two ways. The quotes do acknowledge that Greek philosophers influenced early Christians. So either God influenced Greek philosophers AND early Christians to come to similar philosophies. Or early Christians were soley influenced by Greek thinkers and incorrectly attributed it to God's influence. Your faith or lack of it would determine which you think is right.
Zobel
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I don't think Christianity is similar to Greek philosophy at all. Besides, "Greek Philosophy" is a huge category, with a lot of contradictory views in it.
Quad Dog
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I agree, but it seemed like it was the point Larry Lajitas was trying to make. Maybe I misread his point.
mesocosm
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Ags4DaWin
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The idea that all human life is EQUALLY valuable and sacred regardless of wealth, social status, or station because we are all created in the image of divinity is inherently Christian and solely Christian.

Buddhism comes close as it preaches to the sanctity of life. However, also within buddhism is the concept of karma which carries with it that the wealthy and rulers deserve to rule because of karmhic or divine mandate and therefore should be deferred to in order to promote universal harmony, so while all life is sacred not all life is equal and buried within modern eastern philosophy are also the Daoist precepts which value social harmony above all else....which has lent itself to the stabilization of the communist state in china.

No matter how you cut it Christian values are the core foundation from which sprang humanism which led us to where we are today.

Ags4DaWin
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queso1 said:

Christianity has done so much for the world. However, I don't understand the need for a higher power for a person to have morality and love for his fellow man.


I would suggest that you read some Nietzsche.

Without a higher purpose, AKA "the divine" then the meaning of our lives are reduced to the immediate ramifications of our actions. some cultures may develop a set of moral imperatives to leave a positive legacy for their children and/or honor ancestors of the past as a substitute for or in conjunction with some belief in divinity. these try to guide human behavior beyond a focus on immediate gratification of animal instincts and pursuit of short term pleasure.

but historically you will see a trend that even though these relatively atheistic culturally developed imperatives have some worth as far as guiding morals they are also heavily slanted culturally.

For example the mongols did not have so much an organized religion as they did a set of imperatives to honor their ancestors and to make the world better for their children. Their ancestor was genghis and they honored him by continuing his tradition of waging war and subjugating people. They left a legacy and made the world better for their children by waging war and subjugating people.

Not necessarily a recipe for a peaceful world.

Today you see people who are atheistic trying to leave the world better for children- all children but it has turned into a worship of things like climate change and demonization of the industrial world which has led to rabid irrational behavior from many and a lack of tolerance between ideologues which is a prelude to violent action.

Without a set of divine laws even the best of intentions turn south quickly as individuals become radical idealogues to those philosophies they feel are best in line with their personal philosophy of morality. And this is often a best case scenario.

Worst case is that Without a sense of the eternal and divine laws, human beings have no incentive to look beyond the selfish motivation to obtain as much stuff and stimulate as many senses as they can while alive. Without a belief in the divine and a sense of divine justice, there is no deterrent other than fear of getting caught to act in ways that are morally corrupt if these actions serve to fulfill short term goals and desires.

Most atheists i know believe that you can substitute the divine for a respect for all humans and on a small scale this is possible. Some small percentage of human beings are programmed that way, but that small percentage is vastly outweighed by the latter two categories i spoke of.

The problem with smart well meaning people who have been surrounded all their lives by other smart well meaning people is that they have an enormously hard time understanding how absolutely stupid and corrupt the average person is. So when you remove the divine from the equation you have a large stupid and corrupt population which has nothing above it to serve for guidance when their animal instincts begin to kick in. Then they take all the smart, well meaning people that still exist and enslave them or line them up against the wall and shoot them.

We are all animals after all.
Texaggie7nine
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Humans are tribal, selfish and conniving by default. As with our physical attributes that come from millions of years of evolution and survival of the fittest, our morality and beliefs derive from the most efficient ones that produce the most successful societies. Christianity is right, in that it has been proven to be the most effective way to get men of all races and cultures to come together into singular, successful, peaceful communities. Roman leaders saw this early and pushed it for that reason.

It may be 100% man made, but that doesn't mean it isn't necessary for our survival as a society.
7nine
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UTExan
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expresswrittenconsent said:

Theyre also incredibly rare within Christianity.



Actually they are not. Christian universities, mission schools, medical missions, ministries to homeless, food banks and the like are normal for most denominations and individual churches. One should not take the actions of individual Christians and extrapolate that we know what is going on in their lives. Nor should we judge an entire faith for what we perceive to be bad behavior. God is at work disciplining each of His children in His way.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
Rocag
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I don't worry about what would happen to the moral beliefs of humanity in a world without religion. Humanity, generally speaking, has a well developed sense of empathy. It is the ability to empathize with those around us that will inevitably give rise to practices which aim to reduce the suffering of others. Such moral beliefs can, but certainly don't have to be, tied to a religious belief.

Reminds me of the people who would say "Without my religion I'd be a mass murderer!" That doesn't make your religion good, it just makes you an awful person.
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Rocag
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I think you'd do well to watch the rise of secular humanist cultures for a good example. Though, ironically enough, some claim that secular humanism should be considered a religion. The problem becomes that we often consider any culture wide moral belief to be religious in nature. And depending on your definition that line can be pretty thin.

Now there are non-theistic religions that we could consider, Buddhism being the most prevalent example. It certainly contains empathy. Though that might not be what you're looking for.

What country wide cultures would you point to that shouldn't be considered religious? If you're looking for a gotcha moment to point at officially atheistic totalitarian states, sorry but I'm not going to play along. I'll not hold up any country that has a state religious belief and punishes non-believers as a good example, no matter what those base beliefs are. In those cases the religious comes second to the political. Again we can come back to the idea of empathy and realizing that not everyone believes as we do, so how would I want to be treated if I was in their situation?
Rocag
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JJMt said:

As far as I know, most if not all of the large endeavors that we would term empathetic (e.g., hospitals for the poor, orphanages, education for the poor, etc.) all originated in the West, in countries that had a tradition of Christianity. I can't think of any countries that did not have a tradition of Christianity that did originate such empathetic endeavors.
This is incorrect. Just about every culture has some general rules on how less fortunate individuals such as orphans, widows, the elderly, and the sick should be cared for. I suppose you could argue that group homes where a large number of orphans are provided a home are a Christian invention (though I am not certain on the validity of even that claim), but the idea that orphans should be provided care certainly isn't. You'll find that in some variation in almost every culture.

As for the rise of large institutions that can provide the services you are indicating, I think you might be neglecting to consider the impact of the industrial revolution as it concerns what a society is even capable of providing. A society in which 99% of the population is made up of farmers is going to be heavily limited on what services it can provide on a widespread basis. In such cases we would expect efforts to take care of others to be more individually focused.
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