Here lately, I've been thinking that God has given up on us as a country and world. I feel we've become so sinful and evil that he is sitting back and letting us destroy ourselves. I don't see this country ever becoming a Christian nation or even a united nation anymore.
Something I've been struggling with
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Last: 3 yr ago by Zobel
Jbob04 said:
Here lately, I've been thinking that God has given up on us as a country and world. I feel we've become so sinful and evil that he is sitting back and letting us destroy ourselves. I don't see this country ever becoming a Christian nation or even a united nation anymore.
Might want to go back and read some OT. Or about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD. God always is there to redeem us. He is love.
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As temporally depressing as it may seem, the United States is not God's kingdom established on Earth. It will fall like all other empires of men.
We've got nothing on the 14th century.
God never gives up on us, but we give up on Him and ourselves plenty. God sent his only Son to die for us 2000 years ago, and the world is way better now than it was then.
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It's great to read history and see how many people think they are God's chosen kingdom on Earth. Off the top of my head, Rome after Constantine, Byzantium for the whole time, all the Holy Roman Empire leaders for a thousand years, the Italians since the Renaissance, the "Germans" during and just after the Reformation, the English during colonization/conversion phase, the Russians since the fall of Constantinople, and of course the good old US of A. And that's just the Christiansaggietony2010 said:
As temporally depressing as it may seem, the United States is not God's kingdom established on Earth. It will fall like all other empires of men.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Why does this even matter? God did not tell us to found Christian Kingdoms on earth.Jbob04 said:
Here lately, I've been thinking that God has given up on us as a country and world. I feel we've become so sinful and evil that he is sitting back and letting us destroy ourselves. I don't see this country ever becoming a Christian nation or even a united nation anymore.
20th century was much worse than what we've seen so far
Gig'em
We've never in history done a worse job of destroying ourselves than we have presently. It's a uniquely good period in human history, social media just doesn't allow us to feel that way.
Let's hope that if the Union disintegrates, we live in a successor state that guarantees the same or better rights to citizens. I do see problems coming due to excessive debt and monetary inflation but the whole world is in a mess, too. It is times like this that we remember that we are pilgrims on the earth, still looking for a better country.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
Aggrad08 said:
We've never in history done a worse job of destroying ourselves than we have presently. It's a uniquely good period in human history, social media just doesn't allow us to feel that way.
Jbob04 said:
Here lately, I've been thinking that God has given up on us as a country and world. I feel we've become so sinful and evil that he is sitting back and letting us destroy ourselves. I don't see this country ever becoming a Christian nation or even a united nation anymore.
You bring up a good point about self-destruction. That's what sin is and judgment is: nothing more than us being allowed to destroy ourselves as God withdraws His Grace in accordance with our refusal to respond to or seek Him.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
Every era of human history has something that is evil and wrong. the 20th century had the holocaust, stalinism, the brutality of maoism, etc. Even those that fought against those forces had segregation, internment camps, etc.
Imagine social media during WW2, or during the "great leap forward", during the black plague, are any number of man made and natural catastrophes. We have a tendency to make our own suffering be the greatest of suffering, and we tend to get nostalgic about the past and gloss over the brutal suffering of past generations.
That is to say, in some ways we are much better, in some ways we are much worse. God gives us the gift of free will, and we are fundamentally broken people in need of a savior.
Imagine social media during WW2, or during the "great leap forward", during the black plague, are any number of man made and natural catastrophes. We have a tendency to make our own suffering be the greatest of suffering, and we tend to get nostalgic about the past and gloss over the brutal suffering of past generations.
That is to say, in some ways we are much better, in some ways we are much worse. God gives us the gift of free will, and we are fundamentally broken people in need of a savior.
Thanks to everyone for your responses. It's something I've been struggling with for quite awhile.
Quote:
social media just doesn't allow us to feel that way
Social media and the internet as a whole is starting to make me understand why God destroyed the Tower of Babel.
UTExan said:
Let's hope that if the Union disintegrates, we live in a successor state that guarantees the same or better rights to citizens. I do see problems coming due to excessive debt and monetary inflation but the whole world is in a mess, too. It is times like this that we remember that we are pilgrims on the earth, still looking for a better country.
Reminds me of Charlie Robinson's, Indianola.
If Democrats get control again, Christians better head for the hills. They're going to dismantle organized religion. Once they pass a tax in churches, it's over. Look at some of the Leaked emails between Hillary and her advisors back in 2016. They hate evangelicals.Jbob04 said:
Here lately, I've been thinking that God has given up on us as a country and world. I feel we've become so sinful and evil that he is sitting back and letting us destroy ourselves. I don't see this country ever becoming a Christian nation or even a united nation anymore.
Yeah, that's not going to happen.
If taxing churches causes it to "be over" then we are already lost.Fedup said:If Democrats get control again, Christians better head for the hills. They're going to dismantle organized religion. Once they pass a tax in churches, it's over. Look at some of the Leaked emails between Hillary and her advisors back in 2016. They hate evangelicals.Jbob04 said:
Here lately, I've been thinking that God has given up on us as a country and world. I feel we've become so sinful and evil that he is sitting back and letting us destroy ourselves. I don't see this country ever becoming a Christian nation or even a united nation anymore.
The Church has survived persecution, torture, and executions. I do not believe men can destroy the Church.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Well, I don't think we're called to create "Christian nations", but to be the Kingdom here on earth. I also don't think America has ever been a remotely "Christian nation". Remember, this is a nation founded in sin, and has been engulfed in the evils of sin from day 1. We started with a clear violation of Romans 13, codified the ownership of human beings in our founding documents, have been engaged in some military conflict for over 90% of our history, Jim Crow, codified discrimination against women and minorities, abortion, internment of citizens due to their ancestry, etc.Jbob04 said:
Here lately, I've been thinking that God has given up on us as a country and world. I feel we've become so sinful and evil that he is sitting back and letting us destroy ourselves. I don't see this country ever becoming a Christian nation or even a united nation anymore.
I think much of the stress today comes from a mythical understanding of American history more than anything. So, as a Christian, I couldn't care less what happens to the nation-state of America. I'm just focused on loving my neighbor, my enemy, and my Savior. Whatever comes of that, so be it.
Our nations underlying principles are without a doubt Christian. We might have characters like Thomas Jefferson who claimed to be a deist but was undoubtedly bred of the Christian faith. He even made a bible haha. I would say we are a Christian nation in many ways but there are many layers. Essentially we are still very much swimming in these waters.PacifistAg said:Well, I don't think we're called to create "Christian nations", but to be the Kingdom here on earth. I also don't think America has ever been a remotely "Christian nation". Remember, this is a nation founded in sin, and has been engulfed in the evils of sin from day 1. We started with a clear violation of Romans 13, codified the ownership of human beings in our founding documents, have been engaged in some military conflict for over 90% of our history, Jim Crow, codified discrimination against women and minorities, abortion, internment of citizens due to their ancestry, etc.Jbob04 said:
Here lately, I've been thinking that God has given up on us as a country and world. I feel we've become so sinful and evil that he is sitting back and letting us destroy ourselves. I don't see this country ever becoming a Christian nation or even a united nation anymore.
I think much of the stress today comes from a mythical understanding of American history more than anything. So, as a Christian, I couldn't care less what happens to the nation-state of America. I'm just focused on loving my neighbor, my enemy, and my Savior. Whatever comes of that, so be it.
Many early states also had state churches. Subsequent decisions don't render history void.
Larry Lajitas said:Our nations underlying principles are without a doubt Christian. We might have characters like Thomas Jefferson who claimed to be a deist but was undoubtedly bred of the Christian faith. He even made a bible haha. I would say we are a Christian nation in many ways but there are many layers. Essentially we are still very much swimming in these waters.PacifistAg said:Well, I don't think we're called to create "Christian nations", but to be the Kingdom here on earth. I also don't think America has ever been a remotely "Christian nation". Remember, this is a nation founded in sin, and has been engulfed in the evils of sin from day 1. We started with a clear violation of Romans 13, codified the ownership of human beings in our founding documents, have been engaged in some military conflict for over 90% of our history, Jim Crow, codified discrimination against women and minorities, abortion, internment of citizens due to their ancestry, etc.Jbob04 said:
Here lately, I've been thinking that God has given up on us as a country and world. I feel we've become so sinful and evil that he is sitting back and letting us destroy ourselves. I don't see this country ever becoming a Christian nation or even a united nation anymore.
I think much of the stress today comes from a mythical understanding of American history more than anything. So, as a Christian, I couldn't care less what happens to the nation-state of America. I'm just focused on loving my neighbor, my enemy, and my Savior. Whatever comes of that, so be it.
Underlying principles mean nothing when the actions don't support them. Declaring a state religion means nothing when actions aren't consistent with Christian principles. Heck, England has a state church, but I never see people boasting it's a "Christian nation". I certainly can't recall hearing American Christians declaring England a Christian nation.
Now, does a majority of our society identify as "Christian"? Sure, but even then that includes countless "cultural Christians". Even many racial supremacists claim to be Christian. I don't think the actions reflect a nation ever following Christ. Ever. The only Christian nation is the Kingdom of God.
There's a slight bit of irony to your argument as you just described every church too. Tons of cultural and sinning Christians in the pews.
powerbelly said:Why does this even matter? God did not tell us to found Christian Kingdoms on earth.Jbob04 said:
Here lately, I've been thinking that God has given up on us as a country and world. I feel we've become so sinful and evil that he is sitting back and letting us destroy ourselves. I don't see this country ever becoming a Christian nation or even a united nation anymore.
Mostly no, and a little yes. Though God judges individuals, He works through nations, languages, and cultures. I took a class called Perspectives on the World Christian Movement at A&M. The class is still around, offered through TEDS, I think. One of the lectures was about how every Christian Movement through history began within a nation of people group, and that group was blessed until it no longer used its blessing to bless others. While America has been rife with fault, Americans have historically been the most generous nation on earth. This light has been fading, and if we correlate material generosity to evangelistic zeal (which we probably could), we can say that our blessing will soon diminish. TLDR - God gives wealth to believers for a reason, and he takes it away if it isn't used to glorify him. He works through nations in this manner.
Sorry that's just not true and you probably need to look at your own sins before judging the whole. There are endless actions in our countries history that reflect a following of Christ but many that didn't so I'll give you that part at a MINIMUM. If you don't understand the minimum comment then you need to figure out just exactly what a nation is. MLK utilized Christian principles to end segregation. Protestant groups absolutely led the charge to end slavery. Where do you think Lincoln got his principles from??? Where did all the people that agreed with Lincoln get their actions from???? Did all of those people leading the charge to end slavery get it from Greek mythology??? Some of your Christians are not different from the social justice warriors.PacifistAg said:Larry Lajitas said:Our nations underlying principles are without a doubt Christian. We might have characters like Thomas Jefferson who claimed to be a deist but was undoubtedly bred of the Christian faith. He even made a bible haha. I would say we are a Christian nation in many ways but there are many layers. Essentially we are still very much swimming in these waters.PacifistAg said:Well, I don't think we're called to create "Christian nations", but to be the Kingdom here on earth. I also don't think America has ever been a remotely "Christian nation". Remember, this is a nation founded in sin, and has been engulfed in the evils of sin from day 1. We started with a clear violation of Romans 13, codified the ownership of human beings in our founding documents, have been engaged in some military conflict for over 90% of our history, Jim Crow, codified discrimination against women and minorities, abortion, internment of citizens due to their ancestry, etc.Jbob04 said:
Here lately, I've been thinking that God has given up on us as a country and world. I feel we've become so sinful and evil that he is sitting back and letting us destroy ourselves. I don't see this country ever becoming a Christian nation or even a united nation anymore.
I think much of the stress today comes from a mythical understanding of American history more than anything. So, as a Christian, I couldn't care less what happens to the nation-state of America. I'm just focused on loving my neighbor, my enemy, and my Savior. Whatever comes of that, so be it.
Underlying principles mean nothing when the actions don't support them. Declaring a state religion means nothing when actions aren't consistent with Christian principles. Heck, England has a state church, but I never see people boasting it's a "Christian nation". I certainly can't recall hearing American Christians declaring England a Christian nation.
Now, does a majority of our society identify as "Christian"? Sure, but even then that includes countless "cultural Christians". Even many racial supremacists claim to be Christian. I don't think the actions reflect a nation ever following Christ. Ever. The only Christian nation is the Kingdom of God.
94chem said:powerbelly said:Why does this even matter? God did not tell us to found Christian Kingdoms on earth.Jbob04 said:
Here lately, I've been thinking that God has given up on us as a country and world. I feel we've become so sinful and evil that he is sitting back and letting us destroy ourselves. I don't see this country ever becoming a Christian nation or even a united nation anymore.
Mostly no, and a little yes. Though God judges individuals, He works through nations, languages, and cultures. I took a class called Perspectives on the World Christian Movement at A&M. The class is still around, offered through TEDS, I think. One of the lectures was about how every Christian Movement through history began within a nation of people group, and that group was blessed until it no longer used its blessing to bless others. While America has been rife with fault, Americans have historically been the most generous nation on earth. This light has been fading, and if we correlate material generosity to evangelistic zeal (which we probably could), we can say that our blessing will soon diminish. TLDR - God gives wealth to believers for a reason, and he takes it away if it isn't used to glorify him. He works through nations in this manner.
That is probably the best summary on this thread.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
The Church as a Christ centered movement won't die via taxation but if you think that taxing churches 30+% of their revenue won't slow the spread of Christianity then you're delusional. You're saved. What about all those who will never hear the word because there won't be churches and missionaries performing that work??powerbelly said:If taxing churches causes it to "be over" then we are already lost.Fedup said:If Democrats get control again, Christians better head for the hills. They're going to dismantle organized religion. Once they pass a tax in churches, it's over. Look at some of the Leaked emails between Hillary and her advisors back in 2016. They hate evangelicals.Jbob04 said:
Here lately, I've been thinking that God has given up on us as a country and world. I feel we've become so sinful and evil that he is sitting back and letting us destroy ourselves. I don't see this country ever becoming a Christian nation or even a united nation anymore.
I think you are right and wrong. Right in the sense that taxation will remove the resource for many programs, but wrong in the sense that growth will not occur. In every oppressive regime we have seen Christianity grow under constraints by the state.Fedup said:The Church as a Christ centered movement won't die via taxation but if you think that taxing churches 30+% of their revenue won't slow the spread of Christianity then you're delusional. You're saved. What about all those who will never hear the word because there won't be churches and missionaries performing that work??powerbelly said:If taxing churches causes it to "be over" then we are already lost.Fedup said:If Democrats get control again, Christians better head for the hills. They're going to dismantle organized religion. Once they pass a tax in churches, it's over. Look at some of the Leaked emails between Hillary and her advisors back in 2016. They hate evangelicals.Jbob04 said:
Here lately, I've been thinking that God has given up on us as a country and world. I feel we've become so sinful and evil that he is sitting back and letting us destroy ourselves. I don't see this country ever becoming a Christian nation or even a united nation anymore.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
Jbob04 said:
Here lately, I've been thinking that God has given up on us as a country and world. I feel we've become so sinful and evil that he is sitting back and letting us destroy ourselves. I don't see this country ever becoming a Christian nation or even a united nation anymore.
We are not a Christian nation and thank god for that. We are a free, secular nation with a separation of church and state. This is a good thing - especially for religious people. So you can stop your hand-ringing
We live in the safest, most prosperous period of human history. Objectively, our kids and their kids will be better off than us.
Keep your chin up. Speed bumps aren't car wrecks.
Keep your chin up. Speed bumps aren't car wrecks.
Before new birth can happen the previous must breakdown.
For instance, a seeds shell starts to rot, before new growth appears.
The water of a woman breaks before the birth of a child.
The situation in Egypt got worse, much worse, before the Israelites sprang free.
Know that God is in control.
For instance, a seeds shell starts to rot, before new growth appears.
The water of a woman breaks before the birth of a child.
The situation in Egypt got worse, much worse, before the Israelites sprang free.
Know that God is in control.
There's a lot to this comment but for starters Jesus called out this concept of separation of church and state long before our founding fathers. You know the famous verse. So you can literally thank God for that.mesocosm said:Jbob04 said:
Here lately, I've been thinking that God has given up on us as a country and world. I feel we've become so sinful and evil that he is sitting back and letting us destroy ourselves. I don't see this country ever becoming a Christian nation or even a united nation anymore.
We are not a Christian nation and thank god for that. We are a free, secular nation with a separation of church and state. This is a good thing - especially for religious people. So you can stop your hand-ringing
One of the interesting things I've noticed about Christians on here vs secular humanists is that Christians generally know their history, at least many lessons and ethical systems shown in Judeo-Christian beliefs that of course led to the birth of western civilization. However I've never once seen a secular humanist pull out the Humanist Manifesto from the 1930s. Lol probably because the majority don't know it exists and nobody actually lives in a belief structure that contains no real meaning.
Jesus called for no such separation nor any government of any kind. He did say to subject yourself and obey your government. It's been understood as a dictate largely independent of the type of government.
That's hardly a call for the modern separation of church and state.
That's hardly a call for the modern separation of church and state.
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