Canon or not?

11,309 Views | 293 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by dermdoc
aggiedad20
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You've witnessed "miraculous healings"??

So when can we expect all ER docs and paramedics to be unemployed??
UTExan
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If you are a doc, cop, paramedic, etc., you have witnessed miracles.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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AG
TxAgPreacher said:

k2aggie07 said:

I'm curious - you say the time finally came. When do you think that was?

In many ways I think its irrelevant, because I believe we could look at the manuscripts today, and empirically come to the same canon we have today.

And THAT bolded statement is precisely why I continue to ask "by what authority?" By what authority can we be sure that the Canon contains the books God wills that it should contain and none other? As a collateral matter this question also points clearly to why sola scriptura is an incoherent idea.
dermdoc
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AG
UTExan said:

If you are a doc, cop, paramedic, etc., you have witnessed miracles.
Not meaning to derail the canon discussion but as a doc(and I know derms do not count but I was a med student and Internal medicine intern at Baylor College of Medicine)I do not know if I have seen a verified "miracle". I have seen a lot of what I call God winks where say I order a routine CT scan or X-ray and find an asymptomatic tumor or something else and the patient benefited from it.

I hear all the stories from mission fields and maybe I am wrong but it seems that few are substantiated by docs or medical personnel. And I have gotten very angry with people, clergy or others, who suggested to my sick patients that if they had more faith they would be healed. That is truly a wicked, warped theology.

My opinion on faith healers is that if you can really heal people, please come to the hospital and help. Never saw Benny Hinn or any of the other faith healers at the Texas Med Center. Unless they were sick themselves.

I am a cessationist as far as tongues go but to me it is such a minor point of theology that it does not bother me one way or another. Unless some one says(and they do) to congregants that if they do not speak in tongues then they are not "saved".

And I do believe in the complete sovereignty of God and that He can heal anyone He desires to. Or give anyone the power to speak in tongues if He wants to. But that is up to God. And not up to the "powers" of any person. And it definitely should not be used as a means of judging other Christians or non Christians for that matter.

Now back to the Canons.
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ramblin_ag02
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AG
Same experience here. I've seen cancer go into remission, heart function improve inexplicably, and people on death's door recover and live for a decade. However, I tend to think it's just that we don't understand as much as we like to think, and these are perfectly natural occurences. Yet to see a definitive miracle like a amputee regenerating a limb.

I do believe in miracles, though. I just think I haven't witnessed one. Which is nothing remarkable in itself. Miracles are rare and God does them when He wants.

Luke 4 25 I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah's time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26 Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27 And there were many in Israel with leprosy in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansedonly Naaman the Syrian."

And I completely agree with the faith healer skepticism. If you can heal the sick, then go to hospitals, LTACs, and nursing homes. That's where all the sick people are.
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aggiedad20
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I once saw the pope walk on water, Benny Hinn re-attach a severed ear and Oral Roberts raise a man four days in the grave back to life...

And I dropped out of high school and got my GED...seriously

jrico2727
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There is a miracle daily with the Sacrifice on the Altar. There are many miracles that happen all the time that are recorded and are not believed. 70,000 people witnessed Fatima and still people choose not to believe.
dermdoc
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jrico2727 said:

There is a miracle daily with the Sacrifice on the Altar. There are many miracles that happen all the time that are recorded and are not believed. 70,000 people witnessed Fatima and still people choose not to believe.
Ramblin and I both said we believe in miracles. But IMHO miracles come from God. Not from people like faith healers.
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jrico2727
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dermdoc said:

jrico2727 said:

There is a miracle daily with the Sacrifice on the Altar. There are many miracles that happen all the time that are recorded and are not believed. 70,000 people witnessed Fatima and still people choose not to believe.
Ramblin and I both said we believe in miracles. But IMHO miracles come from God. Not from people like faith healers.
Great everything I wrote about is a miracle from God.
Ordhound04
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This forum had a thread about this recently.

In general I find that those looking for a "fireworks" Or a highly engaging type of debate on between orthodox and Catholics on how many Maccabees, and particular psalms should be included in Canaan are probably going to be severely disappointed. it's a very "Meh..." debate in my experience. The in general "OT apocrypha" is probably a debate that gets more "fireworks" Because it emphasizes the protestant/Catholic-orthodox divide.

In terms of noncanonical books that had a lot of influence in the first and second century church (Enoch, shepherd of Hermas, Didache). Is certainly a much more fascinating conversation, in my opinion.

In terms of Enoch, some of the issues I remember was that it purports to have been written by Enoch, but Enoch didn't write it, there are some theological issues with it (maybe it's a reference that God needs the angels to tell him what's going on on earth?). It seems that Enoch and Shepherd of hermas we're almost like Dantes Divine comedy and Milton's Paradise lost.

Maybe another thing to consider is its treatment of the nephilum. Some consider them to be the product of fallen angels, others considered them to be coming from the line of Seth, sons of God, and the line of Cain, daughters of man.
ramblin_ag02
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Quote:

Maybe another thing to consider is its treatment of the nephilum. Some consider them to be the product of fallen angels, others considered them to be coming from the line of Seth, sons of God, and the line of Cain, daughters of man.
https://sqpn.com/2020/03/the-mysterious-nephilim-of-the-bible-aliens-angels-or-something-else/

This was a pretty good listen that Redstone put on page one. It delves into the modern and ancient thoughts regarding the Nephilim. There is one possibility he didn't mention, and that's the product of the line of Seth with non-Adamite women. This requires an atypical reading of Genesis 1 and 2 in which most of humanity is made on the 6th day, but Adam was created on the 3rd day. So when Adam and Eve were expelled, they intermingled and intermarried with the humans created on the 6th day. So the Sons of God would be Adamites, the daughters of men would be the non-Adamite women, and the Nephilim would be their offspring and would likely include most of the men given in the Genesis genealogies
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UTExan
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dermdoc said:

UTExan said:

If you are a doc, cop, paramedic, etc., you have witnessed miracles.
Not meaning to derail the canon discussion but as a doc(and I know derms do not count but I was a med student and Internal medicine intern at Baylor College of Medicine)I do not know if I have seen a verified "miracle". I have seen a lot of what I call God winks where say I order a routine CT scan or X-ray and find an asymptomatic tumor or something else and the patient benefited from it.

I hear all the stories from mission fields and maybe I am wrong but it seems that few are substantiated by docs or medical personnel. And I have gotten very angry with people, clergy or others, who suggested to my sick patients that if they had more faith they would be healed. That is truly a wicked, warped theology.

My opinion on faith healers is that if you can really heal people, please come to the hospital and help. Never saw Benny Hinn or any of the other faith healers at the Texas Med Center. Unless they were sick themselves.

I am a cessationist as far as tongues go but to me it is such a minor point of theology that it does not bother me one way or another. Unless some one says(and they do) to congregants that if they do not speak in tongues then they are not "saved".

And I do believe in the complete sovereignty of God and that He can heal anyone He desires to. Or give anyone the power to speak in tongues if He wants to. But that is up to God. And not up to the "powers" of any person. And it definitely should not be used as a means of judging other Christians or non Christians for that matter.

Now back to the Canons.
I do know what I have seen based on what medical people tell me and what I have seen: one lady collapsed in our church one Sunday morning and not only was not breathing, but turning blue---no heartbeat and no breathing. There were two docs there but the lady had a DNR card. Another church member prayed over her at the scene while paramedics were on the way (somebody had already called 911) and she revived. A miracle? I think so.
I have seen several instances in road/highway crashes where the occupants should not have survived at all---yet they did. Call it random physics or whatever you wish---but it was a miracle to those who viewed the crash scene.

As for big name faith healers? No confidence. I believe they are people who currently operate in the shadows without fanfare because of the gift granted them and know they reside in various denominations/Christian traditions.

Father Ralph Diorio is one, IMHO. As a matter of fact, there is a long tradition in Catholicism of physical healing. Also in the ministry of John Wesley you will find such instances.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
dermdoc
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AG
First of all, I believe in miracles but just have not seen one personally in medicine. Now have I seen what I consider a God wink, yes. Actually somewhat often.

Secondly, a lot depends on how you define miracles especially if you are an old doc. I have seen similar instances to what you described but did not consider them "miracles" and can explain them medically. Maybe I am too skeptical but I would consider a miracle when an amputated leg regrew, a pancreatic cancer spontaneously resolved, a documented medically blind person immediately being able to see, etc. I have read the reports of these but have seen so many people who were prayed over and who had a strong faith not get the miracle then I am skeptical of human claims or human "healers" of any sorts. And if you know folks in the shadows who can truly heal people, please send them to MD Anderson.

And edited to add, I was not being dismissive. I am deadly(emphasized) serious. If the Father can heal, please come help.
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UTExan
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dermdoc said:

First of all, I believe in miracles but just have not seen one personally in medicine. Now have I seen what I consider a God wink, yes. Actually somewhat often.

Secondly, a lot depends on how you define miracles especially if you are an old doc. I have seen similar instances to what you described but did not consider them "miracles" and can explain them medically. Maybe I am too skeptical but I would consider a miracle when an amputated leg regrew, a pancreatic cancer spontaneously resolved, a documented medically blind person immediately being able to see, etc. I have read the reports of these but have seen so many people who were prayed over and who had a strong faith not get the miracle then I am skeptical of human claims or human "healers" of any sorts. And if you know folks in the shadows who can truly heal people, please send them to MD Anderson.

And edited to add, I was not being dismissive. I am deadly(emphasized) serious. If the Father can heal, please come help.


God is the healer. That is why the immune system works, tissue and bone grows, etc.
These folks with the actual gift are rather human channels for healing. Are they necessary? Maybe in the same sense that one person has the powerful gift of intercession, another the gift of prophecy, another the gift of serving, their gift serves a particular function in the body of Christ.

I don't know the answers to all that and I would regard with suspicion anybody that claims to know the mysteries of God. I simply know that people have been miraculously healed/resuscitated without medical intervention and I have witnessed it. Perhaps the reason you hear the "miracle" stories from the missionaries are two fold: 1.) they are lying or 2.) God uses miracles in medically austere environments because there are no other resources available to fulfill His purpose of witness. If you get a chance, google Angus Buchan, a South African farmer turned evangelist. In his film Faith Like Potatoes he chronicles miracles in his ministry to the people of the African continent.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
dermdoc
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AG
To my knowledge, everybody is in favor of miracles. Especially healings. And again, I am not trying to be a turd, but as a doc who has seen so much pain,suffering, and death, if someone can heal please come to the hospitals and help.

And edited to add that I am not accusing anyone of lying or that miracles do not happen. I have not personally seen what I would call a miracle after over 40 years in medicine. I do believe God can heal people. I do not think there are people who can heal on demand.

And seriously, if so, help.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
 
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