Biblical Civil Obedience today

1,737 Views | 25 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by 94chem
c-jags
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My wife and I have been having a lot of hard discussions lately about our attitudes towards the government in the light of all this.

Not to bring my politics into it, but I'm a small government conservative, but I do strongly believe in what the Bible says towards our relationship with government. 1 Peter 2 is really clear how I'm supposed interact with the government. It goes against my nature, but I do my best to be a good citizen because of that.

I'm always skeptical of government regardless of who is in office, but I'm finding that my sin nature is getting to be a lot more of "F the police" in the last few months.

For a case in point, the Harris county judge's Mask order was ridiculous. I would have obeyed it because it's not doing anything asking me to violate my biblical principles, but I would have raged pretty hard if I lived in that county.

Just curious how people's hearts have been during this and how you're viewing our relationship with the government. I've become very jaded. My rights are God given, not government given and I'm having to check myself on kingdom vs earthly matters.
Zobel
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AG
Why would you rage hard about a mask? This isn't the politics board, we don't have to pretend that the road to auschwitz is paved with cloth surgical masks.
c-jags
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I think it's the whole idea of "you have to do this thing we demand to be able to go out in public or we'll fine you."

Again, I would obey because the Bible is clear, but the "you have to do this, to exist in public," just doesn't sit well.
Zobel
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AG
You get mad about shirt / pants?
Aggrad08
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AG
Seriously when's the last time you failed against needing to where clothes in public?
Quad Dog
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c-jags said:

I think it's the whole idea of "you have to do this thing we demand to be able to go out in public or we'll fine you."

Again, I would obey because the Bible is clear, but the "you have to do this, to exist in public," just doesn't sit well.

It's actually a pretty long list of things you have to do to go out in public or be a part of American society. Just of the top of my head: sales taxes, property and school taxes, income tax, follow laws, social security, insurance, immunization, general cleanliness, clothes, education, behavior, registering for selective service, jury duty, obay police. Why are you letting a few minor things that are trying to do some good and are temporary impact you so much?
ramblin_ag02
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AG
So what's the biblical part of this?

The Bible doesn't forbid masks and says to obey civil government.

The civil government says to wear a mask.

Wisdom says that wearing a mask is slightly uncomfortable at worst and lifesaving to others at best.

From what I can tell there is no Biblical letter or spirit that would advise against a mask
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Zobel
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AG
Many Americans practice the folk religion of America, whatever that may be - not any particular religious faith. The reaction to the political / cultural zeitgeist needs to be supported by a religious claim, and the line between the two becomes blurred.
UTExan
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Masks are a minor inconvenience (although I have a Swiss military surplus NBC mask from a decade ago and am tempted to get a tee shirt with the message "Ask About My Swiss Army Mask" ). Civil governments become illicit when they actively prohibit or persecute churches from meeting (such as China) in my thinking.
Yes, I do realize that Paul and Peter were killed under Nero and the Romano-Jewish War destroyed Jerusalem, but it seems Paul's central message seemed to indicate that government was necessary in this dispensation.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
Frok
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Our government may not kill you but they are running such a debt that they will take you down economically rather than physically. But man they sure love moments like this, we are the sheep and they are the shepards
c-jags
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k2aggie07 said:

Many Americans practice the folk religion of America, whatever that may be - not any particular religious faith. The reaction to the political / cultural zeitgeist needs to be supported by a religious claim, and the line between the two becomes blurred.


I think that is what I meant. Maybe articulated better than I did.

I didn't mean that I don't want to wear pants and I feel the need to rebel against the government for that. I don't feel the need to rebel against the government on masks. I would wear it because that's what the Bible tells me to do.

It's that I do have more frustrations than normal with the government, whether legitimate or illegitimate. I'm upset that government is telling some people they are allowed to make money to support their family and that some people are not.

Some of my frustrations are shared with F16. However, all the "feigned acts of defiance" yelled over there are very much opposed to the faith that they claim. I'm not saying I'm better, just that I struggle a lot and was curious if others share that frustration right now and how you're handling it.

If you're opinion that being frustrated and struggling with current events is the equivalent of being mad about having to wear pants, the OP wasn't to you.
Zobel
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Not sure you tracked what I was getting at. For most Americans their religion is being American. If being American means being Christian, then so be it. If being American is perceived as being under fire from some quarter, the justification will come from American things. The constitution, the Bible, whatever.

The problem is that Christianity is subordinated to Americanism in that case. People are calling on Christian things to defend their Americanism they same way they call on the Declaration of Independence. That doesn't track. If it's not an attack on your faith, it's not a matter of faith.
Sb1540
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k2aggie07 said:

Not sure you tracked what I was getting at. For most Americans their religion is being American. If being American means being Christian, then so be it. If being American is perceived as being under fire from some quarter, the justification will come from American things. The constitution, the Bible, whatever.

The problem is that Christianity is subordinated to Americanism in that case. People are calling on Christian things to defend their Americanism they same way they call on the Declaration of Independence. That doesn't track. If it's not an attack on your faith, it's not a matter of faith.
This is true. If it's against your nature then you need to reevaluate what your religion is. Religion is the one thing that you would risk everything else for. As the OP said the NT makes it pretty clear that we are to obey our government...however any sort of leadership regardless if it's your parents or the President can not be honored if it goes against the truth of God. Obviously if that is a legit concern it needs to be brought forward to a hierarchy of spiritual leaders within the church and not something that is decided by yourself because what the hell do you really know?
94chem
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I posted this earlier...

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3103773

Lots of things become constitutional matters or matters of religious persecution when we don't get our way. It's not the mask, it the principle...seems like I've heard that one before.
Zobel
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AG
Jeez man talk about first world problems. Comparing wearing a surgical mask to a woman bleeding for twelve years?
94chem
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k2aggie07 said:

Jeez man talk about first world problems. Comparing wearing a surgical mask to a woman bleeding for twelve years?


Exactly.
dermdoc
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k2aggie07 said:

Not sure you tracked what I was getting at. For most Americans their religion is being American. If being American means being Christian, then so be it. If being American is perceived as being under fire from some quarter, the justification will come from American things. The constitution, the Bible, whatever.

The problem is that Christianity is subordinated to Americanism in that case. People are calling on Christian things to defend their Americanism they same way they call on the Declaration of Independence. That doesn't track. If it's not an attack on your faith, it's not a matter of faith.
Great post. I have been guilty of that mind set in the past and was very intolerant with opposing views. Still a conservative but put my faith above anything now. The US will pass away. We all will pass away. But God is eternal and gives us the gift of eternal life through his Son Jesus Christ. And once you get an eternal mind set you truly are born again and have a renewing of your mind. Praise God!
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Win At Life
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k2aggie07 said:

Jeez man talk about first world problems. Comparing wearing a surgical mask to a woman bleeding for twelve years?
I'll take "Non Sequitur" for $500 please, Alex.
Zobel
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AG
It's the opening line of what the guy wrote in the post he linked.
Sb1540
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Good post. I also don't see any nationalism in Christianity. The US will eventually fall or change so much that we wouldn't recognize it. It's just the nature of time.

One of my favorite GK Chesterton quotes, the man was brilliant - " I have said that Asia and the ancient world had an air of being too old to die. Christendom has had the very opposite fate. Christendom has had a series of revolutions and in each one of them Christianity has died. Christianity has died many times and risen again; for it had a god who knew the way out of the grave."
dermdoc
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Love Chesterton.

In fact, I am going to re tackle Orthodoxy.
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Frok
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I agree we should obey our government. But I don't think it's unchristian to call out the government when it fails to abide by rules which established it.

c-jags
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Didn't mean to abandon this thread I was just on the road today.

It actually brought to mind a better analogy. All of highway 6 and 36 were slowed to 65 and 60 mph today.

I'm a good driver. I obey the speed limit at all times. I have a few tickets to my credit but all of them are due to mistakes or not slowing down soon enough by accident more than Just disobeying the law.

By driving and having a license, I'm agreeing to go by the laws of TX DPS

If I'm driving on I35 and the speed limit is 75, I'm ecstatic, I'm moving. I'm not inconvenienced. When they drop it to 65 and have a sign that says "we're doing this for public safety, I slow down because I obey the law and I can agree that 65 is probably safer. Then they slow it to 50 and say we need to save even more lives. But there's also a sign that says if you're an essential driver you can keep going 65.

Further down the road there's another sign that says go 30 mph because we need to save ALL THE LIVES. I can't argue with their logic and I'm going to obey because I'm a believer and a law abiding citizen but it is irritating at this point. Essential people are still allowed to go 65 mph.

Finally there's a sign that says 10 mph, and at this point you're flat out frustrated.

Now me? I'm just going to see my in-laws. It's irritating but I'll survive and it's faster than going on foot or in covered wagon. The guy that's going to be late for a big job or delivering something non-essential isn't so lucky.

It's a dumb analogy of course, but what I meant is that I see an overarching frustrations that are coming out of this and I'm tending to agree with it more than normal. That is of course my sin nature coming out.

My faith overrides my politics or desire for "liberty" and my frustrations are light compared to people that have lost their job or worse. But I keep seeing people that have a guaranteed job, house, and armed protection making decisions that are ruining the livelihoods of millions.

It's a bit of a confession thread, combined with a curiosity of how other people that know their faith is more important than their patriotism are doing. I enjoy F16 and liken with their views generally more than not but obviously there are some misplaced priorities over there. I'm guilty of it as well, of course.

ETA: I don't mean for any of this to be combative or an argument. I struggle with "my rights" vs "the kingdom" and what matters most on a regular basis. I'm a product of being raised by folk Christian conservatives and trying to break myself of that bend.
94chem
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Psalm 147:11,20

The LORD delights in those who fear him,
who put their hope in his unfailing love.
He has done this for no other nation;
they do not know his laws.

Quad Dog
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AG
The driving comparison is an interesting one. In 2018 Texas had 3,639 traffic fatalities, 14,908 serious injuries, 2018 saw 0 days without a traffic death, highest death day was 25, 43% of deaths weren't restrained. source
Those are pretty high statistics, much higher than our year long death rate of Corona will be. If something like fertilizer or water was killing 3,000 people a year we would all be in an outrage. But we've all accepted the risk of driving because it's fun, convenient, cars have safety features, and governments have restrictions. (There's some interesting stuff about safer cars actually lead to worse drivers because they get a false sense of security, source) It's about risk mitigation. The government could do more for seat belts, lower speeds, helmets, etc. but have accepted the risk of deaths because they are pretty small compared to the number of drivers on the road. And they have taken steps to reduce that risk to an acceptable number.
I view the masks and social distancing around Corona as risk mitigation too. You have the scientists with their doom and gloom predictions of worst case, which is their job. The administrators in business and government take that info, identify the risks, find ways to mitigate or remove them to an acceptable number, and then at some point you have to accept the risk that a certain percentage of people will die and you keep trying to make that number as small as possible. The flail since February of masks and distancing and quarantine has been quick attempts at risk mitigation until they had better information and understandings at which point the mitigation will change for better or worse depending on the outcomes..
Zobel
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AG
Hey man I just realized I completely missed the point of your other post. read way, way too fast. Sorry about that. I agree with you completely.
94chem
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k2aggie07 said:

Hey man I just realized I completely missed the point of your other post. read way, way too fast. Sorry about that. I agree with you completely.


No problem. I love (and fear) Habakkuk. The idea that God's people are spared from collateral damage in the affairs of the world is not biblical. Especially unbiblical is the idea that we are spared because we are American. It is amazing to me how many people who claim to be Christian just don't accept this.

I'm reading about Solzhenitsyn's years in the gulag now, before he was even a Christian. When I was a child I read Corrie ten Boom. And this year in Acts, we of course read of Paul and Silas. I find it hard to relate to their joy in the midst of circumstances, but their testimony informs me of the possible.
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