In the last two weeks I have spent time watching a history series called the "Naked Archaeologist" and also "Cracking The Shakespeare Code"

Both spend time talking about the lost Temple Treasures. If they still exist and were then found should it be finders keepers? Or would they be rightfully Israel's?

I have a hard time answering this question. What do you think?

If the Ark is waiting for the temple, why wasn't it in the 2nd temple?

Aggrad08 said:

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It's no more Israel's than Roman artifacts found in Britain belong to Italy.

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Good point.

Aggrad08 said:

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It's no more Israel's than Roman artifacts found in Britain belong to Italy.

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I think that is a good argument. I would imagine though Israel would argue otherwise. I am trying to think what their argument would be though....

Win At Life said:

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The Temple Institute in Israel has already rebuilt all the equipment except the Ark. Many people who follow these things believe the Ark is in Ethiopia and just waiting for the temple to be rebuilt to be returned. So, put on your Indiana Jones hat and start looking for it. :^}

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I am not coming at this from an end times or purely religious line of thinking. But you would think the Temple institute would be more than excited and willing to replace a new item with the original.

I don't know what is on the full list of actual items apart from the

Ark
menorah
Silver Trumpets

What else is thought to have been lost?

Pro Sandy said:

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If the Ark is waiting for the temple, why wasn't it in the 2nd temple?

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There were just a few theological problems with the 2nd one (basically it didn't count, and God never dwealt there), namely that there weren't any Aaronic priests at that point. The fights between the sadducees and pharisees alternated and really it was more of a Roman structure than a jewish one.

And random thought. If the actual items were found it could be a horrible let down. Like if the menorah for example was just tiny or really ugly. Or if the Ark was found and it looked like something you might buy at a garage sale.

Not no Aaronic priests. Don't forget Zechariah.

craigernaught said:

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Why would the state of Israel have any claim to it if found outside its borders?

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I'm not sure they do. But there are actually Ethiopian Jews considered Jewish enough to make Aliyah. Also, Israel would probably be willing to pay 10 times or more money than it's worth in gold value. It's not that Ethiopia HAS to give it up, it's just that people expect some deal to be brokered.

Pro Sandy said:

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If the Ark is waiting for the temple, why wasn't it in the 2nd temple?

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The biblical list of all the items carried out of the first temple was extremely details and lacking nothing. Except one item. The Ark was not listed as being carried away from the 1st temple's destruction. Because it was not in that list, then it never existed even in the 1st temple? Most understand that the conspicuous absence of the Ark from that list was a deliberate sign to the Jews, that they hid the Ark and still had it. Although no scriptural location is ever given for the Ark since that time; not of it returning to the second temple or what happened to that in 70AD. However, the Yom Kippur feast which involved the Ark would have been odd to conduct if it was not actually there. Many people believe it exists, but it's movements just have been kept a secret since then. That's the great mystery of the LOST ARK.

Madman said:

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Win At Life said:

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The Temple Institute in Israel has already rebuilt all the equipment except the Ark. Many people who follow these things believe the Ark is in Ethiopia and just waiting for the temple to be rebuilt to be returned. So, put on your Indiana Jones hat and start looking for it. :^}

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I am not coming at this from an end times or purely religious line of thinking. But you would think the Temple institute would be more than excited and willing to replace a new item with the original.

I don't know what is on the full list of actual items apart from the

Ark
menorah
Silver Trumpets

What else is thought to have been lost?

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IF they could locate any originals, I'm sure they would be glad to have them. But they are presumed to have been melted down for some other use by the Romans who sacked the temple in 70AD. Scripture lists other things like the table of show break, the alter of incense, the brass wash basin, fire pans end even the high priest's breast plate and such. None of those was so "sacred" that they cannot be replaced. But the Ark had the ten commandments, Aaron's rod and a jar of manna. Because of that and the fact that God's presents "hung" over the Cherubim on the Ark, it's probably something they'd want the original on.

I bet you're right that the government or a private group would spend a crazy amount of money, if it could be verified.

But if such items were taken by someone like the Babylonians (or taken from the Babylonians or whoever by someone else and so on), I have a hard time imagining some of the modern neighboring states allowing such a sale in the first place. Who knows.

Win At Life said:

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The Temple Institute in Israel has already rebuilt all the equipment except the Ark. Many people who follow these things believe the Ark is in Ethiopia and just waiting for the temple to be rebuilt to be returned. So, put on your Indiana Jones hat and start looking for it. :^}

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You might want to ask the Ethiopians about that. They believe that God delivered a small group of the faithful with the Ark to Ethiopia, and then Ethiopia became the new holy land and Ethiopians the new holy people. They have a rich and complex religious history intersecting in fascinating ways with both Christainity and Judaism. I don't think they'd have any desire to turn over the Ark any more than the Vatican would if they had it.

nortex97 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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If the Ark is waiting for the temple, why wasn't it in the 2nd temple?

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There were just a few theological problems with the 2nd one (basically it didn't count, and God never dwealt there), namely that there weren't any Aaronic priests at that point. The fights between the sadducees and pharisees alternated and really it was more of a Roman structure than a jewish one.

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If it didn't "count" then why did Paul make sacrifices there in Acts 21. The fact that the second temple didn't include any miraculous "appearance" by God at its dedication, doesn't mean God's presence was there any less. As for the Ark, being there it's not recorded, but, again, that's no proof that it wasn't put back there secretly, just like its leaving the first temple was as secret. The Aaronic priesthood still exists through the line of Levi and there's still lots of those around today.The Sadducees became a paid-for political position under Roman rule, but the Pharisees, not so much.

Scripture (Maccabees) speaks that the Ark, and a few other things were moved to Mt. Nebo. (No mention if it was ever in the 2nd Temple). Not sure what extra biblical, but contemporary, writings say.

The "Ethiopian Ark" is cared for by the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church (Oriental Orthodox). Not sure if their story syncs with Maccabees, but it would be interesting to see if Israel did make a claim to see how it would play out.

Frok said:

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If we find the arc I'm not opening it.

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The arc is the rainbow where God made a covenant with Noah to never flood the earth again. Get it straight!

nortex97 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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If the Ark is waiting for the temple, why wasn't it in the 2nd temple?

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There were just a few theological problems with the 2nd one (basically it didn't count, and God never dwealt there), namely that there weren't any Aaronic priests at that point. The fights between the sadducees and pharisees alternated and really it was more of a Roman structure than a jewish one.

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Read Haggai, and tell me it didn't count. Also, as others noted, what about the veil tearing? What about Zezhariah? What about Jesus worshipping there?

Fascinating discussion.

I'll bet if they ever found the original items, they would be pretty disappointing in terms of size and workmanship. I'm thinking of the gold items found at the ruins of Troy and old Roman coins when I say that.

The menorah was six feet tall and one hunk of solid gold. Probably literally weighed close to a ton. A ton of gold fashioned into anything will impress.

Jesus participated in the judaism of his day, and the symbology is real. But, the Roman-built temple arguable was never properly consecrated.

The Romans were pretty proud/demonstrated/recorded that they marched off with the loot (including the menorah). It was undoubtedly melted down and turned into...other things.



(Arch of Titus):

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The south inner panel depicts the spoils taken from the Temple in Jerusalem. The golden candelabrum or Menorah is the main focus and is carved in deep relief. Other sacred objects being carried in the triumphal procession are the Gold Trumpets, the fire pans for removing the ashes from the altar, and the Table of Shewbread. These spoils were likely originally colored gold, with the background in blue. In 2012 the Arch of Titus Digital Restoration Project discovered remains of yellow ochre paint on the menorah relief.

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Jesus participated in the judaism of his day, and the symbology is real. But, the Roman-built temple arguable was never properly consecrated.

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Why do you keep saying this? The Second Temple was completed around 500 BC. The Romans hadn't even progressed to a Republic at that point, much less become a power on the Italian peninsula, much less around the Mediteranean. The Romans had absolutely no part in the construction of the Second Temple. In fact, no one but Jews built the Second Temple. They specifically excluded foreigners and Samaritans from helping.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Jesus participated in the judaism of his day, and the symbology is real. But, the Roman-built temple arguable was never properly consecrated.

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Why do you keep saying this? The Second Temple was completed around 500 BC. The Romans hadn't even progressed to a Republic at that point, much less become a power on the Italian peninsula, much less around the Mediteranean. The Romans had absolutely no part in the construction of the Second Temple. In fact, no one but Jews built the Second Temple. They specifically excluded foreigners and Samaritans from helping.

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My guess is he's confusing the temple proper with the construction of the surrounding court of the gentiles, poritcos, pinnacles, etc. that Herod orchestrated in the 1st Centruy BC, when they were under Roman occupation.

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The time of the Second Temple is divided into different periods: the Persian period (586-332 BC); the Hellenistic period (332-63 BC); and the Roman period (63 BC-AD 324). In 37 BC, King Herod enlarged the Temple Mount and rebuilt the temple with the consent of the public. During the Roman period, in AD 70, the Second Temple was destroyed, along with Jerusalem, by Titus' army.

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There's no doubt (to me) that Christ accurately predicted it's destruction, but the expansion of Herod was massive and really at that point it was a Roman structure. If it were in fact holy to him, why would he have done that? It did not include the ritual objects of the First Temple; of special significance was the loss of the Ark itself. Finally it was rebuilt by Herod (and massively enlarged), but this is the phase where the debate is that (a) the objects were gone, (b) the wrong priests were in charge, and (c) it was basically built by the Roman rulers, not the Jews.

I get it, some of you guys have gone to Jerusalem and want to think you saw something very near/dear to your faith, and that's ok. It's an academic debate today among some jews.

Amusing reading;

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Flavius Josephus also recorded a legend that sprung up about the Temple. While the Temple was on fire and there was tremendous looting, killing and rape many rushed to the Temple to die rather than become Roman slaves. When the flames leaped through the roof and the smoke had risen in thick columns one of the priests supposedly climbed to the top of the main tower. He had in his hand the key to the sanctuary. When he reached the top he cried out, "If you, Lord, no longer judge us to be worthy to administer Your house, take back the key until You deem us worthy again." As the legend goes, a hand appeared from heaven and took the key from the priest.

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There was one occasion after the destruction of the Second Temple when the Jews were able to formulate plans to rebuild their temple. The man behind this project was the Roman Emperor, Flavius Claudius Julianus, a nephew of Constantine - also known as Julian the Apostate because of his opposition to Christianity. Julian planned the project in the last year of his reign in A.D. 363. Julian rescinded all the anti-Jewish laws that his uncle Constantine had instituted. He issued an edict that the Temple be rebuilt in Jerusalem. This caused a great deal of excitement among the Jews. From far and wide, Jews came to Jerusalem to help in the rebuilding work. Julian supplied the necessary funds and appointed Alypius of Antioch, the Roman Governor of Great Britain, to carry out the project. Jews from all over gave from their wealth upon the projected work of rebuilding the Temple. The roads to Jerusalem were filled with multitudes of Jewish men and women who had hopes of seeing a Third Temple built.

Then sudden tragedy struck. The foundations of the Second Temple were barely uncovered when flames of fire burst forth from under the ground. The flames were accompanied by large explosions. The cause for the flames were probably the result of noxious gas in the subterranean passages catching fire. The workmen fled and the building was stopped, never again to be restarted. Many believed that the explosion and fire were a demonstration of the anger of God.

With their hopes dashed, the Jews were then driven into Exile and became wanderers in foreign lands. They were people without a homeland. For some eighteen centuries they would be dispersed and persecuted. Throughout time their thoughts were of the Temple which once stood in Jerusalem and prayers for its restoration.

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Right there with you. I knew Herod expanded the Temple complex, but no idea they actually dismantled and rebuilt the actual Temple

Zerubbabel's temple was actually very small, and only a weak facsimile of the original. The Holy of Holies was empty, it used wooden beams, and was just around 700x75 feet.

Herod's work was...architecturally amazing. But, Jewish attitudes in the second temple period were widely varied and in Egypt in particular there was a common believe that the temple in Jerusalem could be replaced with another, located elsewhere.

From a Christian perspective, I'd just also note that the Sanhedrin of course of Herod's time (and the money changers at the court) were not looked on well in the new testament;

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During the Roman conquest, Pompey entered (63 BC) the Holy of Holies but left the Temple intact. In 54 BC, however, Crassus plundered the Temple treasury. Of major importance was the rebuilding of the Second Temple begun by Herod the Great, king (37 BCAD 4) of Judaea.

Construction began in 20 BC and lasted for 46 years. The area of the Temple Mount was doubled and surrounded by a wall with gates. The Temple was raised, enlarged, and faced with white stone. The new Temple square served as a gathering place, and its porticoes sheltered merchants and money changers. A stone fence (soreg) and a rampart (el) surrounded the consecrated area forbidden to Gentiles. The Temple proper began, on the east, with the Court of Women, each side of which had a gate and each corner of which had a chamber. This court was named for a surrounding balcony on which women observed the annual celebration of Sukkoth. The western gate of the court, approached by a semicircular staircase, led to the Court of the Israelites, that portion of the Court of Priests open to all male Jews.

Surrounding the inner sanctuary, the Court of Priests contained the sacrificial altar and a copper laver for priestly ablutions. This court was itself surrounded by a wall broken with gates and chambers. The Temple sanctuary building was wider in front than in the rear; its eastern facade had two pillars on either side of the gate to the entrance hall. Within the hall, a great gate led to the sanctuary, at the western end of which was the Holy of Holies.

The Herodian Temple was again the centre of Israelite life. It was not only the focus of religious ritual but also the repository of the Holy Scriptures and other national literature and the meeting place of the Sanhedrin, the highest court of Jewish law during the Roman period. The rebellion against Rome that began in AD 66 soon focused on the Temple and effectively ended with the Temple's destruction on the 9th/10th of Av, AD 70.

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There's very little that is 'jewish' in this structure, or it's construction/financing;

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Before work began on the Temple, Herod spent eight years stockpiling materials for its construction. Then, a workforce of over 10,000 men began its construction including a contingent of 1,500 specially trained priests who were the only ones permitted to work on the innermost and holiest parts of the Temple. Building continued for a further twenty years, though the Temple was in a sufficiently ready state within three and a half years of its commencement to be dedicated.

If one was a pilgrim coming to Jerusalem, one would probably first go to the bank to change money as the coins of the realm, engraved with the head of Caesar were unacceptable for use in the Temple. The central "bank" in Jerusalem and some of the Law courts could be found on the Temple mount platform in a building called the royal portico or stoa. To reach this building (from which there was no direct access to the rest of the plaza) one climbed the stairs to an overpass that crossed over the main road and the markets that ran by the western wall. This overpass was another unique feat of engineering being the width of a four lane highway and possessing an arch made with stones having a combined weight of over 1,000 tons. In order to build this overpass the workers had to literally build a hill, construct the overpass on it, and then remove the hill leaving the overpass standing. Josephus describes the stoa that one reached via the overpass as follows: "...It was a structure more noteworthy than any under the sun. The height of the portico was so great that if anyone looked down from its rooftop he would become dizzy and his vision would be unable to reach the end of so measureless a depth...."; this from a man who had seen Rome in all its glory. He also describes the one hundred and sixty two columns that stood in the stoa as being so large that three men standing in a circle could just hold hands around one of their bases.

After changing money and before entering the Temple, the people were required to immerse themselves in a ritual bath. Despite the arid climate and meager natural water sources there were many such baths in the city, filled using a series of aqueducts and pipes that stretched over 50 miles, 80km. After ritual immersion the Temple was then accessed via the southern or Hulda gates. These gates led to tunnels built under the plaza that then emerged on to the plaza itself. The walls of these tunnels were lined with candles and the ceilings were carved and painted with intricate geometric designs simulating a Persian carpet.

Despite the magnificence of all that has already been detailed, undoubtedly the centrepiece of this majestic complex was the Temple itself. A building of shining white marble and gold, with bronze entrance doors, it was said that you could not look at the Temple in daylight as it would blind you. The attention to detail in its construction is exemplified by the placing of gold spikes on the roof line of the building to prevent birds sitting on the Temple and soiling it.

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nortex97 said:

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The time of the Second Temple is divided into different periods: the Persian period (586-332 BC); the Hellenistic period (332-63 BC); and the Roman period (63 BC-AD 324). In 37 BC, King Herod enlarged the Temple Mount and rebuilt the temple with the consent of the public. During the Roman period, in AD 70, the Second Temple was destroyed, along with Jerusalem, by Titus' army (see note 1)

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There's no doubt (to me) that Christ accurately predicted it's destruction, but the expansion of Herod was massive and really at that point it was a Roman structure. If it were in fact holy to him, why would he have done that? (see note 2) It did not include the ritual objects of the First Temple; of special significance was the loss of the Ark itself. Finally it was rebuilt by Herod (and massively enlarged), but this is the phase where the debate is that (a) the objects were gone, (b) the wrong priests were in charge, and (c) it was basically built by the Roman rulers, not the Jews.

I get it, some of you guys have gone to Jerusalem and want to think you saw something very near/dear to your faith, and that's ok. It's an academic debate today among some jews. (See note 3)

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1) According to your method of accounting, you should be calling it the 3rd temple. That's okay. But the 2nd temple, built by post-exilic Jews, was spoken of this way, by God (you know, the one who makes the rules):

Haggai 2:6-9 New International Version (NIV)

6 "This is what the Lord Almighty says: 'In a little while I will once more shake the heavens and the earth, the sea and the dry land. 7 I will shake all nations, and what is desired by all nations will come, and I will fill this house with glory,' says the Lord Almighty. 8 'The silver is mine and the gold is mine,' declares the Lord Almighty. 9 'The glory of this present house will be greater than the glory of the former house,' says the Lord Almighty. 'And in this place I will grant peace,' declares the Lord Almighty."

2) Why? Because the temple that was raised was far greater. We could discuss this for hours, but if you know why Jesus came, you would know that he has no need for any earthly temple, and certainly not one where the worshipers don't worship him.

3) Um, no. Veil torn, Jesus alive, sins forgiven, citizenship in heaven, Bible on my desk. Don't need a trip to Israel, but if you're buying...

nortex97 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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If the Ark is waiting for the temple, why wasn't it in the 2nd temple?

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There were just a few theological problems with the 2nd one (basically it didn't count, and God never dwealt there), namely that there weren't any Aaronic priests at that point. The fights between the sadducees and pharisees alternated and really it was more of a Roman structure than a jewish one.

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The second temple where Jesus threw out the money changers twice?

The second temple that the apostles claimed its majestic and. Christ said it would be destroyed?

The second temple the Persian king freed the Jews to go build and gave them the temple gold back that the Babylonians stole?

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