Catholics are more likely to identify as Catholic and yet not attend or really believe in tenets of Catholicism.

It makes their numbers look worse.

There are a lot of "cultural" Catholics that really are much closer to lapsed than active church members. We've done a terrible job of catechizing the last couple generations. I think there are some surveys that show belief among "Catholics" in the real presence is like 50%.

I don't think this needs to be a denominational debate about communion, but the importance of fellowship, in particular as it is felt by the elderly.

Eternal salvation is great and all, but on earth the body of believers (soma) needs that fellowship, especially those...closer to seeing earth's joys growing dim, it's glories passing away.

AgLiving06 said:

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I suspect there will be a good correlation between who returns and the Church's view of Communion.

I think in denominations/groups where Communion is more symbolic, the necessity of being physically in Church becomes less, especially if we assume that more Churches will retain online services.

However, if you're at a Church that is more liturgical and places a higher focus on the real presence, the more they are going to desire to come back to really commune with God.

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And one might argue that such focus on liturgy perpetuates the willful, chronic misbehavior of clergy since there is no accountability for such misbehavior.
I don't think I remember Paul advocating adherence to liturgy at the expense of integrity in the church.

I wonder if the faithful elderly realize that more now?

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And one might argue that such focus on liturgy perpetuates the willful, chronic misbehavior of clergy since there is no accountability for such misbehavior.

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Then argue it because I certainly see no connection.

What you really mean is there is concern that the $ keeps flowing...

jkag89 said:

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Quote:

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And one might argue that such focus on liturgy perpetuates the willful, chronic misbehavior of clergy since there is no accountability for such misbehavior.

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Then argue it because I certainly see no connection.

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There absolutely is. For many people, their priest, preacher, rabbi whatever is a powerful witness of God's grace and mercy. If clergy is living with chronic, open, unrepented-of and obvious sin, then there is a very powerful message there. How many people have been damaged by abusive clergy?

UTExan said:

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jkag89 said:

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Quote:

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And one might argue that such focus on liturgy perpetuates the willful, chronic misbehavior of clergy since there is no accountability for such misbehavior.

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Then argue it because I certainly see no connection.

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There absolutely is. For many people, their priest, preacher, rabbi whatever is a powerful witness of God's grace and mercy. If clergy is living with chronic, open, unrepented-of and obvious sin, then there is a very powerful message there. How many people have been damaged by abusive clergy?

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You have not in the least explain how a strong focus on liturgy perpetuates the willful, chronic misbehavior of clergy. You just simply state that such emphasis means there is no accountability.

Elderly will fill the pews hoping for the opportunity to go home sooner than later.

jkag89 said:

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UTExan said:

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jkag89 said:

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Quote:

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And one might argue that such focus on liturgy perpetuates the willful, chronic misbehavior of clergy since there is no accountability for such misbehavior.

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Then argue it because I certainly see no connection.

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There absolutely is. For many people, their priest, preacher, rabbi whatever is a powerful witness of God's grace and mercy. If clergy is living with chronic, open, unrepented-of and obvious sin, then there is a very powerful message there. How many people have been damaged by abusive clergy?

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You have not in the least explain how a strong focus on liturgy perpetuates the willful, chronic misbehavior of clergy. You just simply state that such emphasis means there is no accountability.

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It distracts. In Reformed/evangelical circles the emphasis is on how effective a homily/sermon and the worship atmosphere can communicate God's grace. I realize many believe liturgy can do that but if the officiant is living in open disobedience then it would be difficult for me to take his worship leadership seriously.

Still don't see your argument. You do realize there are Reformed churches that are still very liturgical in nature?

AgLiving06 said:

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I suspect there will be a good correlation between who returns and the Church's view of Communion.

I think in denominations/groups where Communion is more symbolic, the necessity of being physically in Church becomes less, especially if we assume that more Churches will retain online services.

However, if you're at a Church that is more liturgical and places a higher focus on the real presence, the more they are going to desire to come back to really commune with God.

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So the only way any individual can really communicate with God is in a church? You're kidding I hope. What church do you go to?

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So the only way any individual can really communicate with God is in a church? You're kidding I hope. What church do you go to?

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That's not at all what they are saying. They are proposing the idea that those faiths who believes more literally about the Eurcharist will have a higher desire to get back to church physically.

Just about every church on the planet believes that you should be physically at a church.

MidTnAg said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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I suspect there will be a good correlation between who returns and the Church's view of Communion.

I think in denominations/groups where Communion is more symbolic, the necessity of being physically in Church becomes less, especially if we assume that more Churches will retain online services.

However, if you're at a Church that is more liturgical and places a higher focus on the real presence, the more they are going to desire to come back to really commune with God.

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So the only way any individual can really communicate with God is in a church? You're kidding I hope. What church do you go to?

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I'm not sure how you could read what I wrote and come to that conclusion?

We can look at the simple fact that the Orthodox, Catholic and Lutheran Churches are all foregoing "in person" Liturgy/Mass in favor of online versions to see that what you wrote doesn't work.
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The distinction I'm making is around why you would want/need to be in Church, and being specific to Communion.

If you are a Non-Denom/Protestant Church that holds that Communion is symbolic or not the purpose of going to Church, than being at home/online worship is perfectly acceptable. Many Churches are also offering "online communion" based on that logic. This also means the average person gets to feel like they are experiencing the entire service.

However, if you are Catholic/Orthodoxy/Lutheran and hold that the Liturgy/Mass is about Communion and experiencing the Body/Blood of Christ, than online services are never going to be sufficient because you do not get to experience the entire service, and primarily the reason for being there.

None of this is a knock on anybody in particular, but what I think will be a key factor.

But as another example, I was listen to the Ted Cruz Podcast "The Verdict" yesterday on my run.

He talked about how he's doing Church now (1st Baptist Church in Houston).

He made a couple comments that I found interesting:

1. He was "sad not to be able to sing and have the music and have worship together."
2. That in talking to his Pastor, online viewership was growing like crazy, from people who wouldn't normally attend/watch.

Two things jumped out to me about what he said:
1. The thing that jumped out at me was exactly what I said above. He doesn't mention communion at all. Why? Just a slip or maybe it's that since Baptist hold to the symbolic view, it's "part of the service" vs being "the reason for the service."

2. The casual viewer is likely going to enjoy that kind of service more simply because they can experience the full service without having to go to the actual building.

Again, not a knock on anyone specifically, but a highlight of a structural difference that does exist.
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As for me, I'm Lutheran.

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If you are a Non-Denom/Protestant Church that holds that Communion is symbolic or not the purpose of going to Church, than being at home/online worship is perfectly acceptable. Many Churches are also offering "online communion" based on that logic. This also means the average person gets to feel like they are experiencing the entire service.

However, if you are Catholic/Orthodoxy/Lutheran and hold that the Liturgy/Mass is about Communion and experiencing the Body/Blood of Christ, than online services are never going to be sufficient because you do not get to experience the entire service, and primarily the reason for being there.

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This is a classic failure to actually understand what another person believes. I'm not mad, most are guilty of this towards Catholic/Orthodox/Lutheran.

No one from the Non-Denom/Protestant churches believes that home/online worship is perfectly acceptable. We think of it more like Paul writing letters, even though he desired to be with them in their cities. It's not ideal, but we do what we can.

Even if more symbolic, we all want to come back to church to take communion together.

We all want to come worship together. We want to fellowship together.

jkag89 said:

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Still don't see your argument. You do realize there are Reformed churches that are still very liturgical in nature?

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Yes, but the central figure of a pastor who is exemplifying living the faith in integrity is important. That is why when spiritual leaders fail, they confess it and move on. In the RCC there has been this near impenetrable wall of silence and shuttling of pedophile clergy between various dioceses. And, as has been pointed out in previous posts, recruitment of sexually deviant candidates for the priesthood is not uncommon.
Not trying to make this strictly about the RCC. Other denominations have been known to do it as well.

At my church this past Sunday, to express our desire to be together again, we all emailed photos of ourselves to the church secretary who then printed them out and placed them on chairs. When the pastor walked in on Sunday morning to an empty sanctuary, he walked in with all our photos there.

He and I have talked about how while we desire to be in person, we like that our service is conducted live, so that all who join in are joining in at the same time, despite not being able to be in person.

Our men's group that normally meets at Starbucks on Thursday morning has been meeting over conference call. We felt it was very important for us to meet together, even if current restrictions prevented us from being in person.

We are PCA. Even the evangelicals want to be back in person again.

Further, we still have the issue where evangelicals attend church with a greater frequency than any other Christian group (Catholic, mainline protestant, Orthodox, historically Black)

UTExan said:

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jkag89 said:

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Still don't see your argument. You do realize there are Reformed churches that are still very liturgical in nature?

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Yes, but the central figure of a pastor who is exemplifying living the faith in integrity is important. That is why when spiritual leaders fail, they confess it and move on. In the RCC there has been this near impenetrable wall of silence and shuttling of pedophile clergy between various dioceses. And, as has been pointed out in previous posts, recruitment of sexually deviant candidates for the priesthood is not uncommon.
Not trying to make this strictly about the RCC. Other denominations have been known to do it as well.

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You still haven't tied the two together.. Exactly how has liturgical nature of the Catholic Church caused this break down?

jkag89 said:

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UTExan said:

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jkag89 said:

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Still don't see your argument. You do realize there are Reformed churches that are still very liturgical in nature?

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Yes, but the central figure of a pastor who is exemplifying living the faith in integrity is important. That is why when spiritual leaders fail, they confess it and move on. In the RCC there has been this near impenetrable wall of silence and shuttling of pedophile clergy between various dioceses. And, as has been pointed out in previous posts, recruitment of sexually deviant candidates for the priesthood is not uncommon.
Not trying to make this strictly about the RCC. Other denominations have been known to do it as well.

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You still haven't tied the two together.. Exactly how has liturgical nature of the Catholic Church caused this break down?

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If you have a priestly/pastoral figure not living a life of Christian integrity, then someone must call that person to account and attempt to motivate change. Your line of reasoning separates the motivation of the officiant/clergy in the liturgical role from purity of heart.Note the model for this was set early on in Israel's history in 1 Samuel when the priest Eli had two sons, Hophni and Phinehas, who were corrupt and who seduced or sexually abused women worshippers. God's response was to allow them to be killed by the Philistines.

UTExan said:

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jkag89 said:

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UTExan said:

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jkag89 said:

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Still don't see your argument. You do realize there are Reformed churches that are still very liturgical in nature?

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Yes, but the central figure of a pastor who is exemplifying living the faith in integrity is important. That is why when spiritual leaders fail, they confess it and move on. In the RCC there has been this near impenetrable wall of silence and shuttling of pedophile clergy between various dioceses. And, as has been pointed out in previous posts, recruitment of sexually deviant candidates for the priesthood is not uncommon.
Not trying to make this strictly about the RCC. Other denominations have been known to do it as well.

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You still haven't tied the two together.. Exactly how has liturgical nature of the Catholic Church caused this break down?

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If you have a priestly/pastoral figure not living a life of Christian integrity, then someone must call that person to account and attempt to motivate change. Your line of reasoning separates the motivation of the officiant/clergy in the liturgical role from purity of heart.Note the model for this was set early on in Israel's history in 1 Samuel when the priest Eli had two sons, Hophni and Phinehas, who were corrupt and who seduced or sexually abused women worshippers. God's response was to allow them to be killed by the Philistines.

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We are simply talking past each other it seems. My question to you in all of this is why you think churches that have a strong emphasis on liturgy do not have an avenue to address and call to account those pastors not living a life of Christian integrity?

jkag89 said:

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UTExan said:

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jkag89 said:

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UTExan said:

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jkag89 said:

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Still don't see your argument. You do realize there are Reformed churches that are still very liturgical in nature?

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Yes, but the central figure of a pastor who is exemplifying living the faith in integrity is important. That is why when spiritual leaders fail, they confess it and move on. In the RCC there has been this near impenetrable wall of silence and shuttling of pedophile clergy between various dioceses. And, as has been pointed out in previous posts, recruitment of sexually deviant candidates for the priesthood is not uncommon.
Not trying to make this strictly about the RCC. Other denominations have been known to do it as well.

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You still haven't tied the two together.. Exactly how has liturgical nature of the Catholic Church caused this break down?

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If you have a priestly/pastoral figure not living a life of Christian integrity, then someone must call that person to account and attempt to motivate change. Your line of reasoning separates the motivation of the officiant/clergy in the liturgical role from purity of heart.Note the model for this was set early on in Israel's history in 1 Samuel when the priest Eli had two sons, Hophni and Phinehas, who were corrupt and who seduced or sexually abused women worshippers. God's response was to allow them to be killed by the Philistines.

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We are simply talking past each other it seems. My question to you in all of this is why you think churches that have a strong emphasis on liturgy do not have an avenue to address and call to account those pastors not living a life of Christian integrity?

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Because there wouldn't be an epidemic of sexual scandals regarding priests in the RCC, evidence of massive coverups on the part of the church hierarchy, etc. Are you asking that question seriously?
For the Protestants, it is when a church board fails to address complaints and lets things go until a public scandal erupts.

UTExan said:

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jkag89 said:

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UTExan said:

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jkag89 said:

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UTExan said:

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jkag89 said:

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Still don't see your argument. You do realize there are Reformed churches that are still very liturgical in nature?

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Yes, but the central figure of a pastor who is exemplifying living the faith in integrity is important. That is why when spiritual leaders fail, they confess it and move on. In the RCC there has been this near impenetrable wall of silence and shuttling of pedophile clergy between various dioceses. And, as has been pointed out in previous posts, recruitment of sexually deviant candidates for the priesthood is not uncommon.
Not trying to make this strictly about the RCC. Other denominations have been known to do it as well.

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You still haven't tied the two together.. Exactly how has liturgical nature of the Catholic Church caused this break down?

---

If you have a priestly/pastoral figure not living a life of Christian integrity, then someone must call that person to account and attempt to motivate change. Your line of reasoning separates the motivation of the officiant/clergy in the liturgical role from purity of heart.Note the model for this was set early on in Israel's history in 1 Samuel when the priest Eli had two sons, Hophni and Phinehas, who were corrupt and who seduced or sexually abused women worshippers. God's response was to allow them to be killed by the Philistines.

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We are simply talking past each other it seems. My question to you in all of this is why you think churches that have a strong emphasis on liturgy do not have an avenue to address and call to account those pastors not living a life of Christian integrity?

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Because there wouldn't be an epidemic of sexual scandals regarding priests in the RCC, evidence of massive coverups on the part of the church hierarchy, etc. Are you asking that question seriously?
For the Protestants, it is when a church board fails to address complaints and lets things go until a public scandal erupts.

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You still have not in any way shape or form shown how the liturgical focus of Catholic worship is the crux of the problem. At the opposite end of the spectrum is the Southern Baptist Convention, it seemingly has the same problems with similar resistance to reforms. Other Evangelicals seem to have problems as well. Note, I'm not trying to mitigate the sins of the Catholic Church by pointing at others, just showing how churches with a non-liturgical form of worship have similar abuse problems and insurance records indicate that it is on a similar scale.

Sex abuse of children by adults is a pretty similar rate between teachers, coaches, clergy.

The monolithic nature of the RCC makes it seem disproportionate.

There have been many cases of evangelical churches quietly firing a pastor for "an issue" and that pastor shows up at another church and (surprising no one) does it again. I can recall two or three off the top of my head just in Texas.

The problem is people and sin, not any particular church or church structure.

k2aggie07 said:

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Sex abuse of children by adults is a pretty similar rate between teachers, coaches, clergy.

The monolithic nature of the RCC makes it seem disproportionate.

There have been many cases of evangelical churches quietly firing a pastor for "an issue" and that pastor shows up at another church and (surprising no one) does it again. I can recall two or three off the top of my head just in Texas.

The problem is people and sin, not any particular church or church structure.

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Which is exactly why incentives to repent and confess our sins to God is so important.
Apropos of the discussion, some might find this NIH piece (edit to say copying of the Linacre Quarterly article by the NIH) useful.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6026962/