Aggrad08 said:

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Archaeology so soundly discredits the exodus the belief as historical is virtually dead among experts.

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I recall a book one time dealing with this. I will dig it up when I get home.

PaidInFull said:

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Is this Derm of "where did you get those pants" fame?
I see what you are saying doc, but does God judge nations? How might he go about this? I keep thinking about abortion and how we may have been REALLY desensitized to its reality and finality. 80 million potential humans have been snuffed out since Roe vs Wade. I guess I'm of the opinion that God has given this country chance after chance to do what is right and proper...but now he allows something like this to get our attention? Is that too far out of line with past biblical events or even applicable scripture verses?

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Does God judge nations? Wouldn't God judge individuals? The problem with pandemics is that they affect and kill indiscriminately. If God wants to get our attention with respect to USA abortion policy, then create a virus that only kills people that perform or have had abortions.

kurt vonnegut said:

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PaidInFull said:

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Is this Derm of "where did you get those pants" fame?
I see what you are saying doc, but does God judge nations? How might he go about this? I keep thinking about abortion and how we may have been REALLY desensitized to its reality and finality. 80 million potential humans have been snuffed out since Roe vs Wade. I guess I'm of the opinion that God has given this country chance after chance to do what is right and proper...but now he allows something like this to get our attention? Is that too far out of line with past biblical events or even applicable scripture verses?

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Does God judge nations? Wouldn't God judge individuals? The problem with pandemics is that they affect and kill indiscriminately. If God wants to get our attention with respect to USA abortion policy, then create a virus that only kills people that perform or have had abortions.

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That may be what we would do, but.. Abortion was just the first ill that came to mind; I'm sure there are others.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Woody2006 said:

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But why does he want us to suffer?

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1. A test of faith (Job, 1 Pet. 1:6-7).
2. A means to draw us to him in prayer (Ps. 25:18, Ps. 102)
3. A means to draw us into repentance (Ps. 119:67, 71)
4. To purify us (Rom. 5:3-4)
5. Punishment for a particular sin (Ps. 107:17, 1 Cor. 11:29-32, 2 Sam. 12:15)
6. A means to comfort others (2 Cor. 1:3-7)
7. A witness to others (new testament believers being persecuted and rejoicing about it)
8. A witness to other Christians (1 Thess. 3:7-8).

Probably others.

---

does it ever rankle you that all of these things would be detestable if a human being did it to others, but you think that a being that does them to those less powerful than it is deserving praise and worship?

that list seriously sounds like a checklist of behaviors a sociopath would exhibit.

AgLiving06 said:

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Woody2006 said:

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diehard03 said:

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Quote:

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I can't imagine worshiping something I thought was sending pestilence and plague regularly upon us.

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Love atheist logic. Believe something exists thats capable of sending pestilience and choosing defy it based on a set of ethics that wouldn't exist if this being were true.

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You and I both know I don't believe God exists. I used to for a really long time. I always justified it in my head by saying God can do whatever he wants.

But why does he want us to suffer and die? What an absolute monster if true. Thank goodness there's no evidence of a God or the supernatural.

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So you're mad that a God allows people in this life to do whatever they want, and so your response is to not believe in that God, while people in this life do whatever they want?

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I'm not mad at God, I just think it's strange that people believe that there is an all-powerful, perfect being who also happens to be a psychotic *******.

PaidInFull said:

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Woody2006 said:

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diehard03 said:

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Quote:

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I can't imagine worshiping something I thought was sending pestilence and plague regularly upon us.

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Love atheist logic. Believe something exists thats capable of sending pestilience and choosing defy it based on a set of ethics that wouldn't exist if this being were true.

---

You and I both know I don't believe God exists. I used to for a really long time. I always justified it in my head by saying God can do whatever he wants.

But why does he want us to suffer and die? What an absolute monster if true. Thank goodness there's no evidence of a God or the supernatural.

---

What are your views on the possibility of off world beings visiting our planet? Potentially billions of years in advance of our civilization?

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Possible, but again I see no evidence of it. Why believe in something without good reason to?

PaidInFull said:

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This is what I thought as well Larry. Archeology supports the reality of both the Exodus and the event at Sodom and Gomorrah. IE: The Bible ain't no fairy tale. IMO.

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Do you genuinely believe God sent a bear to murder a bunch of children because his prophet got his feelings hurt when they called him "baldy"?

Do you really believe Jonah lived in the stomach of a whale for all that time?

Aggrad08 said:

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Im not sure what you are arguing. A literal exodus has a long history in Judaism. Sure something can be literal and symbolic. The point is even the broad stokes of the story are false, let alone the fantastical bits.

Just because they use terms like 40 years and really mean "a long time" doesn't mean it's a genesis style story told to describe a theology only.

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I'll try to explain it this way. Stories scale over time. It's necessary for humans to do so. For example when someone asks you how your day went you don't go through every fact since that feat alone would be impossible. Your conscious experience doesn't allow it, basically your brain would turn to mush trying to think of every little detail and you would bore the person to death. You tell them a story. The story you tell is a very condensed version which has truth but leaves out a lot of physical details. The story you tell is meant to provide some purpose or meaning.

Our stream of consciousness is so far from that of ancient people that if you attempt to only find forensic style evidence of events you will completely miss the point. Does it really matter to find historical evidence of God giving Moses the Ten Commandments or is it more important to realize that the Ten Commandments and Sermon on the Mount are cornerstones of western belief? Those stories have colonized the world. One of the biggest issues surrounding arguments of the Bible is that modern man tries to analyze very old stories like Adam eating the forbidden fruit and Moses parting the Red Sea on the same level of experience as something like driving to work. They couldn't be further apart. The events in Genesis and Exodus happened...but they are remembered on a universal scale by using narrative structures and images that compress so much into them. So much in fact that there are endless volumes of books written on the Bible. Modern man tries to get meaning out of finding some type of technical point or archeological discovery while being oblivious to the point that these old stories of resurrection, crossing floods, going into the underworld, climbing up the mountain, etc. are located throughout our culture. Hope this helps.

Woody2006 said:

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PaidInFull said:

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This is what I thought as well Larry. Archeology supports the reality of both the Exodus and the event at Sodom and Gomorrah. IE: The Bible ain't no fairy tale. IMO.

---

Do you genuinely believe God sent a bear to murder a bunch of children because his prophet got his feelings hurt when they called him "baldy"?

Do you really believe Jonah lived in the stomach of a whale for all that time?

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Those stories are great!

What events in genesis happened? What events in exodus happened? Be specific, what do you consider literal. Just because something is condensed does not make it something that can't be analyzed against evidence.

That they tell a broader story isn't something I'm questioning, nor that they have impact. I'm speaking only of the literal facts.

AstroAg17 said:

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Can a god exist who is not good? Can humans tell the difference?

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I see nothing that violates any logic for an evil god to exist. The capacity to create a universe isn't limited to a mora view. And whether the beliefs or nature of that god constitute what is good is just euthyphros dilemma

Woody2006 said:

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PaidInFull said:

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Woody2006 said:

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diehard03 said:

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Quote:

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I can't imagine worshiping something I thought was sending pestilence and plague regularly upon us.

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Love atheist logic. Believe something exists thats capable of sending pestilience and choosing defy it based on a set of ethics that wouldn't exist if this being were true.

---

You and I both know I don't believe God exists. I used to for a really long time. I always justified it in my head by saying God can do whatever he wants.

But why does he want us to suffer and die? What an absolute monster if true. Thank goodness there's no evidence of a God or the supernatural.

---

What are your views on the possibility of off world beings visiting our planet? Potentially billions of years in advance of our civilization?

---

Possible, but again I see no evidence of it. Why believe in something without good reason to?

---

The evidence is overwhelming and its reality would explain soooo much.

Aggrad08 said:

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What events in genesis happened? What events in exodus happened? Be specific, what do you consider literal. Just because something is condensed does not make it something that can't be analyzed against evidence.

That they tell a broader story isn't something I'm questioning, nor that they have impact. I'm speaking only of the literal facts.

---

So the idea of splitting the world between literal facts and metaphors is not the way to understand this. That is a modern tool that really has no use. You have to use the right language to understand what the authors were saying. For example light in ancient cosmology didn't mean the same as the modern scientific example of photons. I'll post a bunch of examples later tonight or tomorrow. When you understand the correct meaning of ancient terms it removes the possibility of metaphor. In that sense it becomes "literal".

PaidInFull said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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Archaeology so soundly discredits the exodus the belief as historical is virtually dead among experts.

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I recall a book one time dealing with this. I will dig it up when I get home.

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Hiding on the bookshelf...

The Exodus Case by Dr. Lennart Moller

Fascinating read.

PaidInFull said:

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PaidInFull said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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Archaeology so soundly discredits the exodus the belief as historical is virtually dead among experts.

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I recall a book one time dealing with this. I will dig it up when I get home.

---

Hiding on the bookshelf...

The Exodus Case by Dr. Lennart Moller

Fascinating read.

---

Yea I don't see any reason to suspect that man has the slightest clue what he's talking about. From his wiki:

Lennart Mller is a professor of environmental medicine at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden.[1] He received a doctor's degree in Medical sciences from the Karolinska Institute in 1988, with a thesis "2-nitrofluorene, in vivo metabolism and assessment of cancer risk of an air pollutant"

A review by Swedish archaeologist Martin Rundkvist stated that "Mller emphasizes that he is neither a theologian, a historian nor an archaeologist." and concludes with "The Exodus Case is such an extreme example of pseudo-science that any reasonably well-informed reader will wonder if Mller is joking."[13]


Would you like some sources for actual experts on the subject?

schmendeler said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Woody2006 said:

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But why does he want us to suffer?

---

1. A test of faith (Job, 1 Pet. 1:6-7).
2. A means to draw us to him in prayer (Ps. 25:18, Ps. 102)
3. A means to draw us into repentance (Ps. 119:67, 71)
4. To purify us (Rom. 5:3-4)
5. Punishment for a particular sin (Ps. 107:17, 1 Cor. 11:29-32, 2 Sam. 12:15)
6. A means to comfort others (2 Cor. 1:3-7)
7. A witness to others (new testament believers being persecuted and rejoicing about it)
8. A witness to other Christians (1 Thess. 3:7-8).

Probably others.

---

does it ever rankle you that all of these things would be detestable if a human being did it to others, but you think that a being that does them to those less powerful than it is deserving praise and worship?

that list seriously sounds like a checklist of behaviors a sociopath would exhibit.

---

I guess it would bother me if I thought I was in a position where I could judge God.

How about an assessment of behavior and general likeability?

AstroAg17 said:

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Can you judge the Muslim interpretation of your God?
I suspect you do.

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Haha ya obviously. You should be very thankful that western civilization stems from Judeo-Christian ethics and not Islam. Clearly. There's a great tweet from Richard Dawkins that I posted below. I love the last sentence "or is that just my cultural upbringing". Duh! Do you people think you just started in a clean room of secular beliefs? Tell me where does secular belief stem from?

" Listening to the lovely bells of Winchester, one of our great mediaeval cathedrals. So much nicer than the aggressive-sounding "Allahu Akhbar." Or is that just my cultural upbringing?"

Have you ever heard a Muslim call to prayer? They can be quite beautiful.

Aggrad08 said:

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PaidInFull said:

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PaidInFull said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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Archaeology so soundly discredits the exodus the belief as historical is virtually dead among experts.

---

I recall a book one time dealing with this. I will dig it up when I get home.

---

Hiding on the bookshelf...

The Exodus Case by Dr. Lennart Moller

Fascinating read.

---

Yea I don't see any reason to suspect that man has the slightest clue what he's talking about. From his wiki:

Lennart Mller is a professor of environmental medicine at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden.[1] He received a doctor's degree in Medical sciences from the Karolinska Institute in 1988, with a thesis "2-nitrofluorene, in vivo metabolism and assessment of cancer risk of an air pollutant"

A review by Swedish archaeologist Martin Rundkvist stated that "Mller emphasizes that he is neither a theologian, a historian nor an archaeologist." and concludes with "The Exodus Case is such an extreme example of pseudo-science that any reasonably well-informed reader will wonder if Mller is joking."[13]


Would you like some sources for actual experts on the subject?

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Sure, why not? Believe me, I don't think my "applecart" can be any more turned upside down than it already has..I'm already trying to figure out why the Exodus is a fabricated story perhaps? What would be the motivation for that?

Just came across the video today. Think it was shot in 2016 from a guy on the Gaia network. Sodom/Gomorrah may not have been the only place to have such an event..

schmendeler said:

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Have you ever heard a Muslim call to prayer? They can be quite beautiful.

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No but I do know the cultural differences are very much alien to the west. Very often not in a good way. At least atheists like Dawkins and Sam Harris actually stand up against the tide of irrational religious pluralism. Better than sitting there as a clueless onlooker just trying to not offend someone.

Aggrad08 said:

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What events in genesis happened? What events in exodus happened? Be specific, what do you consider literal. Just because something is condensed does not make it something that can't be analyzed against evidence.

That they tell a broader story isn't something I'm questioning, nor that they have impact. I'm speaking only of the literal facts.

---

This worldview wasn't bound to a modern literal view and this is the issue at hand. Everything was symbolic, which is everything in harmony. I can't take you back to a moment in the OT where I can recreate a physical moment to show you what you want to see. We have the stories as they are and the stories are not told in a manner like "this is what I did today". The term literal itself is also a long drawn out process in history anyways. In the Christian sense literal can be an idol if you bind yourself to materialism. Christianity has always warned against idolizing material. However science is already pushing past the idea of literal/material anyways. Cognitive scientists are making interesting developments in their field to show that reality as we perceive with our senses is certainly not "base reality". I like that term and Elon Musk uses it often when asked about simulation theory.

I'm not questioning if the worldview is bound to the literal, I think it certainly isn't. But you claimed it was literal in some way. That's what I'm trying to get at.

Aggrad08 said:

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I'm not questioning if the worldview is bound to the literal, I think it certainly isn't. But you claimed it was literal in some way. That's what I'm trying to get at.

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The snake in the garden is a symbol of time. It's the cause of transformation. A symbol in its correct usage is an exact representation, it's not a metaphor. You can read it "as is".

Woody2006 said:

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PaidInFull said:

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Woody2006 said:

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diehard03 said:

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Quote:

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I can't imagine worshiping something I thought was sending pestilence and plague regularly upon us.

---

Love atheist logic. Believe something exists thats capable of sending pestilience and choosing defy it based on a set of ethics that wouldn't exist if this being were true.

---

You and I both know I don't believe God exists. I used to for a really long time. I always justified it in my head by saying God can do whatever he wants.

But why does he want us to suffer and die? What an absolute monster if true. Thank goodness there's no evidence of a God or the supernatural.

---

What are your views on the possibility of off world beings visiting our planet? Potentially billions of years in advance of our civilization?

---

Possible, but again I see no evidence of it. Why believe in something without good reason to?

---

Very interesting video I came across while maintaining isolation..

PaidInFull said:

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Woody2006 said:

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PaidInFull said:

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Woody2006 said:

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diehard03 said:

---

Quote:

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I can't imagine worshiping something I thought was sending pestilence and plague regularly upon us.

---

Love atheist logic. Believe something exists thats capable of sending pestilience and choosing defy it based on a set of ethics that wouldn't exist if this being were true.

---

You and I both know I don't believe God exists. I used to for a really long time. I always justified it in my head by saying God can do whatever he wants.

But why does he want us to suffer and die? What an absolute monster if true. Thank goodness there's no evidence of a God or the supernatural.

---

What are your views on the possibility of off world beings visiting our planet? Potentially billions of years in advance of our civilization?

---

Possible, but again I see no evidence of it. Why believe in something without good reason to?

---

Very interesting video I came across while maintaining isolation..

---

i'm glad to see at least that creation "science" is no longer trying to deny that there was a chromosome fusion event in our evolutionary past.

Woody2006 said:

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PaidInFull said:

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This is what I thought as well Larry. Archeology supports the reality of both the Exodus and the event at Sodom and Gomorrah. IE: The Bible ain't no fairy tale. IMO.

---

Do you genuinely believe God sent a bear to murder a bunch of children because his prophet got his feelings hurt when they called him "baldy"?

Do you really believe Jonah lived in the stomach of a whale for all that time?

---

Okay I got this one! The short answer is no, the second answer is, of course no-even the original readers knew that.

Jonah is satire against the Jewish people's own pride in being 'God's chosen people' and how their hearts were hardened to their neighbors, enemies, and God. Everything in the book of Jonah is over the top comical, biblical scholars agree that its got a cartoon-y feel to it. Its the only book of prophecy that is about the prophet, not the prophesying. And man, Jonah is one terrible prophet.

The biggest takeways from Jonah are when God says love your enemies, he means it. The Asyrians had hunted and killed Jewish people and there was good reason for them to hate one another. But God says, they are still made in my image and worth saving - go preach to them.

I highly suggest you listen to Exploring My Strange Bible's 5 part series on it. Its incredible. Also the first 30 some odd episodes of this podcast will have you understand more about biblical context than 95% of Christians. Its incredible, refreshing, and eye opening.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6gwTaqTis5E0Wuf1hnMYZs

Aggrad08 said:

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PaidInFull said:

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PaidInFull said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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Archaeology so soundly discredits the exodus the belief as historical is virtually dead among experts.

---

I recall a book one time dealing with this. I will dig it up when I get home.

---

Hiding on the bookshelf...

The Exodus Case by Dr. Lennart Moller

Fascinating read.

---

Yea I don't see any reason to suspect that man has the slightest clue what he's talking about. From his wiki:

Lennart Mller is a professor of environmental medicine at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden.[1] He received a doctor's degree in Medical sciences from the Karolinska Institute in 1988, with a thesis "2-nitrofluorene, in vivo metabolism and assessment of cancer risk of an air pollutant"

A review by Swedish archaeologist Martin Rundkvist stated that "Mller emphasizes that he is neither a theologian, a historian nor an archaeologist." and concludes with "The Exodus Case is such an extreme example of pseudo-science that any reasonably well-informed reader will wonder if Mller is joking."[13]


Would you like some sources for actual experts on the subject?

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Lol. A PhD in Medical Sciences.