Our country was founded upon biblical principles, but to suggest it may be getting judged seems to initiate quite a bit of push back. Just posted something similar on the Politics board and got banned. (very thin skinned mods over there btw) Not sure why as both are tied together closely. Maybe this is a better place to post the question?

Spyderman said:

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Our country was founded upon biblical principles, but to suggest it may be getting judged seems to initiate quite a bit of push back. Just posted something similar on the Politics board and got banned. (very thin skinned mods over there btw) Not sure why as both are tied together closely. Maybe this is a better place to post the question?

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A lot of issues with this line of thinking.

First, it didn't originate here. So if you want to claim God is punishing China for being atheist, at least it have better footing.

Second, we know God is God. God is loving. God is Just.

Does any of that apply to this situation? No it does not.

One of the "best" examples would be Job where it was not God, but Satan that unleashed it.

In the end, all that we know is that God does not promise an easy life for Christians and that sin runs rampant on this earth.

So we should find comfort in this being a temporary life, whereas in the next life, we will be free from it.

Nice to know I've found a safe landing spot and thanks for the responses.

Maybe it was my inquiries into the Sodom and Gomorrah event long ago. And the plauges etc that came upon Egypt. Did those really occur or just fairy tales?

Aggrad08 said:

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The entire exodus is largely a fabrication-so yes

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Source?

Based on what we know in the bible, what do you think God thinks about abortion? Fornication?

AstroAg17 said:

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Are you a spyderman sock or something?

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yes

Texags killed him...no longer allowed to post on the Politics board. Upset too many apple carts/world views I suppose? Revenue is the bottom line...he's a victim of that I think.

But, he has close family..

Woody2006 said:

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I can't imagine worshiping something I thought was sending pestilence and plague regularly upon us.

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In War of the Worlds, the same unseen pestilence helped us stay alive.

You could start with the wiki page on historicity of the exodus for some basic overview.

If you want to dig deeper Israel finklestien has a good book on the topic.

Quote:

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I can't imagine worshiping something I thought was sending pestilence and plague regularly upon us.

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Love atheist logic. Believe something exists thats capable of sending pestilience and choosing defy it based on a set of ethics that wouldn't exist if this being were true.

diehard03 said:

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Quote:

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I can't imagine worshiping something I thought was sending pestilence and plague regularly upon us.

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Love atheist logic. Believe something exists thats capable of sending pestilience and choosing defy it based on a set of ethics that wouldn't exist if this being were true.

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You and I both know I don't believe God exists. I used to for a really long time. I always justified it in my head by saying God can do whatever he wants.

But why does he want us to suffer and die? What an absolute monster if true. Thank goodness there's no evidence of a God or the supernatural.

Woody2006 said:

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But why does he want us to suffer?

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1. A test of faith (Job, 1 Pet. 1:6-7).
2. A means to draw us to him in prayer (Ps. 25:18, Ps. 102)
3. A means to draw us into repentance (Ps. 119:67, 71)
4. To purify us (Rom. 5:3-4)
5. Punishment for a particular sin (Ps. 107:17, 1 Cor. 11:29-32, 2 Sam. 12:15)
6. A means to comfort others (2 Cor. 1:3-7)
7. A witness to others (new testament believers being persecuted and rejoicing about it)
8. A witness to other Christians (1 Thess. 3:7-8).

Probably others.

Woody2006 said:

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diehard03 said:

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Quote:

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I can't imagine worshiping something I thought was sending pestilence and plague regularly upon us.

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Love atheist logic. Believe something exists thats capable of sending pestilience and choosing defy it based on a set of ethics that wouldn't exist if this being were true.

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You and I both know I don't believe God exists. I used to for a really long time. I always justified it in my head by saying God can do whatever he wants.

But why does he want us to suffer and die? What an absolute monster if true. Thank goodness there's no evidence of a God or the supernatural.

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So you're mad that a God allows people in this life to do whatever they want, and so your response is to not believe in that God, while people in this life do whatever they want?

Quote:

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You and I both know I don't believe God exists. I used to for a really long time. I always justified it in my head by saying God can do whatever he wants.

But why does he want us to suffer and die? What an absolute monster if true. Thank goodness there's no evidence of a God or the supernatural.

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I know. The atheist has a very strong position in your last sentence. There's no reason to try and make a moral argument about God. You simply play into the theists hands because you presume that God exists. The other side is that your ethical response was given to you by a theist society.

I honestly don't know what a truely godless society would bring...but I don't think it's right to assume that the ethics that came from religious ones would carry over.

Yes, the question I posed is for Christians of course. Just wondering where we stood with respect to events in the bible. Sodom and Gomorrah...the events that were placed upon Egypt etc. Do we really believe they happened? Myths?
My thoughts are that the bible is probably the best owners manual out there for our sp and many of the events did indeed happen pretty much as stated.
And yes, this would all tie into the current virus pandemic. Something to ponder I suppose.

Quote:

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I too feel like if the OP's God exists, he has some explaining to do. You'd think a perfect being could be a little more surgical in his smiting.

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I like not being smited (so far), so i'll just assume he's surgical and not think that I can call Him to the carpet on anything.

I chalk it up to the fact that we are broken people living in a fallen world (Romans 8:22). I believe that one day all things will be made new, so until then I will follow in the footsteps of Paul when he said "To live is Christ, and to die is gain."

bigcat22 said:

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I chalk it up to the fact that we are broken people living in a fallen world (Romans 8:22). I believe that one day all things will be made new, so until then I will follow in the footsteps of Paul when he said "To live is Christ, and to die is gain."

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So, we can BigCat in the "yes....no myths here" camp? Would it not be that much of a stretch to think this pandemic is some sort of judgment upon the world/this nation?

PaidInFull said:

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Yes, the question I posed is for Christians of course. Just wondering where we stood with respect to events in the bible. Sodom and Gomorrah...the events that were placed upon Egypt etc. Do we really believe they happened? Myths?
My thoughts are that the bible is probably the best owners manual out there for our sp and many of the events did indeed happen pretty much as stated.
And yes, this would all tie into the current virus pandemic. Something to ponder I suppose.

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It's a life long journey but you seem curious enough. The Old Testament essentially contains repeating patterns of reality that are packed into stories. All patterns in the Bible point to Christ and end at Revelations in an extremely dense string of images. Revelations is by far the hardest to grasp. If you want to start with Genesis I recommend "The Language of Creation" by Pageau. Very good book to start to understand ancient symbolism. His brother Jonathan Pageau has a great YouTube channel that explains symbolism and helps to remove the materialist lens that all modern people use. If you want to understand myth then dive into Tolkien.

Larry Lajitas said:

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PaidInFull said:

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Yes, the question I posed is for Christians of course. Just wondering where we stood with respect to events in the bible. Sodom and Gomorrah...the events that were placed upon Egypt etc. Do we really believe they happened? Myths?
My thoughts are that the bible is probably the best owners manual out there for our sp and many of the events did indeed happen pretty much as stated.
And yes, this would all tie into the current virus pandemic. Something to ponder I suppose.

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It's a life long journey but you seem curious enough. The Old Testament essentially contains repeating patterns of reality that are packed into stories. All patterns in the Bible point to Christ and end at Revelations in an extremely dense string of images. Revelations is by far the hardest to grasp. If you want to start with Genesis I recommend "The Language of Creation" by Pageau. Very good book to start to understand ancient symbolism. His brother Jonathan Pageau has a great YouTube channel that explains symbolism and helps to remove the materialist lens that all modern people use. If you want to understand myth then dive into Tolkien.

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It also helps to understand hierarchy but you will get that when you start to understand symbolism. If you know some Plato that really helps with symbolism. Here's the symbolic view of the Coronavirus.

Aggrad08 said:

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You could start with the wiki page on historicity of the exodus for some basic overview.

If you want to dig deeper Israel finklestien has a good book on the topic.

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Thanks...will put you in the myth catagory.

Woody2006 said:

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diehard03 said:

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Quote:

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I can't imagine worshiping something I thought was sending pestilence and plague regularly upon us.

---

Love atheist logic. Believe something exists thats capable of sending pestilience and choosing defy it based on a set of ethics that wouldn't exist if this being were true.

---

You and I both know I don't believe God exists. I used to for a really long time. I always justified it in my head by saying God can do whatever he wants.

But why does he want us to suffer and die? What an absolute monster if true. Thank goodness there's no evidence of a God or the supernatural.

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What are your views on the possibility of off world beings visiting our planet? Potentially billions of years in advance of our civilization?

diehard03 said:

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Quote:

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I can't imagine worshiping something I thought was sending pestilence and plague regularly upon us.

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Love atheist logic. Believe something exists thats capable of sending pestilience and choosing defy it based on a set of ethics that wouldn't exist if this being were true.

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The argument for the cognitive dissonance between a loving God and human suffering does not require one to believe that God exists. And anyone believing in God and then choosing to defy said God, isn't an atheist.

Well said-thanks.

AgLiving06 said:

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Spyderman said:

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Our country was founded upon biblical principles, but to suggest it may be getting judged seems to initiate quite a bit of push back. Just posted something similar on the Politics board and got banned. (very thin skinned mods over there btw) Not sure why as both are tied together closely. Maybe this is a better place to post the question?

---

A lot of issues with this line of thinking.

First, it didn't originate here. So if you want to claim God is punishing China for being atheist, at least it have better footing.

Second, we know God is God. God is loving. God is Just.

Does any of that apply to this situation? No it does not.

One of the "best" examples would be Job where it was not God, but Satan that unleashed it.

In the end, all that we know is that God does not promise an easy life for Christians and that sin runs rampant on this earth.

So we should find comfort in this being a temporary life, whereas in the next life, we will be free from it.

---

My wife and I were discussing this last night.

We also believe God is loving and good and does not send diseases to harm us. We do think that things like this draw us closer to God and to each other and firmly believe that somehow God will work this out for good.

dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Spyderman said:

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Our country was founded upon biblical principles, but to suggest it may be getting judged seems to initiate quite a bit of push back. Just posted something similar on the Politics board and got banned. (very thin skinned mods over there btw) Not sure why as both are tied together closely. Maybe this is a better place to post the question?

---

A lot of issues with this line of thinking.

First, it didn't originate here. So if you want to claim God is punishing China for being atheist, at least it have better footing.

Second, we know God is God. God is loving. God is Just.

Does any of that apply to this situation? No it does not.

One of the "best" examples would be Job where it was not God, but Satan that unleashed it.

In the end, all that we know is that God does not promise an easy life for Christians and that sin runs rampant on this earth.

So we should find comfort in this being a temporary life, whereas in the next life, we will be free from it.

---

My wife and I were discussing this last night.

We also believe God is loving and good and does not send diseases to harm us. We do think that things like this draw us closer to God and to each other and firmly believe that somehow God will work this out for good.

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Is this Derm of "where did you get those pants" fame?
I see what you are saying doc, but does God judge nations? How might he go about this? I keep thinking about abortion and how we may have been REALLY desensitized to its reality and finality. 80 million potential humans have been snuffed out since Roe vs Wade. I guess I'm of the opinion that God has given this country chance after chance to do what is right and proper...but now he allows something like this to get our attention? Is that too far out of line with past biblical events or even applicable scripture verses?

Aggrad08 said:

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The entire exodus is largely a fabrication-so yes

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Exodus was never meant to be read in a strict modern historical view and no it's not a fabrication. This is a very typical, modern conundrum for people. Firstly, we have to say that both the events in the OT and the NT are "symbolic". Symbolic doesn't mean they didn't happen in a physical, historical way. Symbolic here means that the events were packed with symbolism. You can think back into your own life and think of some symbolic moments. Perhaps graduating from a school and moving on into some new portion of your life, for example. The graduation "literally" happened, but it is also symbolic: it symbolically represents a turning point in life. Symbolism doesn't, and cannot, discount the physical and the historical.

Im not sure what you are arguing. A literal exodus has a long history in Judaism. Sure something can be literal and symbolic. The point is even the broad stokes of the story are false, let alone the fantastical bits.

Just because they use terms like 40 years and really mean "a long time" doesn't mean it's a genesis style story told to describe a theology only.

This is what I thought as well Larry. Archeology supports the reality of both the Exodus and the event at Sodom and Gomorrah. IE: The Bible ain't no fairy tale. IMO.