A Catholic View of Holy Communion

3,510 Views | 36 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by NonReg85
Thaddeus73
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AG
diehard03
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If you want to make the argument that this is the level of obedience that you believe we should take or that taking this "extreme" position is your act of putting God in his place and us in ours...then I have no argument against you as I feel that evangelicals fall victim to "underestimating by trying not to overestimate". (some traditions do it well, so I am not talking about those ones)

But I can't follow you down the road that God is unwilling to sustain us (or nourish us) due to this difference in interpretation or that he is unable to do so.

I sympathize with Catholics and Orthodox everywhere that might be getting "what? just cancel it. Mine did" nonsense from people. But let's not perpetuate disunity because of it.
Catag94
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I believe we are to feast on Christ continually through: Feasting on the word of God (for the word is God).
Doing the work of the father
Continual communion with Christ through continual prayer
Seeking Christ in all
Continually focusing on things above; things eternal and of the spirit

This is nourishing the spirit.

Additionally, as often as we, as members of his body (That is to say the church - universal church) come together and fellowship and worship and break bread together, we should do it in remembrance of Christ
Zobel
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The Word of God is the God, but the scriptures are not the word. This is a kind of idolatry.

The mark of the Church per St Paul is one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism; one loaf, one Body, one cup. The universal church - meaning, according to the whole, not everywhere or without exception or broad or versatile - is the Church which worships the same Lord, has the same Faith, Baptism, bread, cup.
Catag94
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2 Timothy 3:16 NASB
[16] All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

I believe God reveals himself and his Will in scripture to those who seek him with a discerning heart.

When I say Universal Church, I mean catholic (lower case c) referring to all who are followers of and true believers in Christ, baptized and sealed with the Holy Spirit. I think you and I are for the most part on the same page here.
Zobel
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Yep, as long as we always guard against the error of saying His word (the scriptures) is not His Word (Christ Jesus). People make that mistake even extending it to st Johns prologue and it's a pet peeve of mine.

I don't believe in the doctrine of the invisible church but we don't have to beat that point out here. Best wishes to you and yours during this mess.
Catag94
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I do have a couple questions for you guys.

Given the OP for this thread and under the current circumstances in our suddenly unfamiliar country, where masses have been cancelled indefinitely at this point, imagine if you were somehow forced to go months, or God forbid, years without a formal Mass and the ability to partake of the Eucharist. If this were to be a reality, how do you see this impacting your eternal life?

What are your thoughts on other, non Catholic, Christian believers who never partake of the Eucharist in Catholic Mass and their eternal life?
UTExan
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Looks like the Pope has changed things a bit:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8135569/Catholic-Church-forgives-sins-worshippers-affected-coronavirus.html
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
Thaddeus73
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Both Ezekiel and John talk about actually eating the scroll (the scriptures)...Mankind fell by physically eating forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, mankind is saved by physically eating the fruit of the cross (the tree of life), which is the Eucharist...

Jesus is The Word made flesh...
Catag94
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Is this your answer to my question?
The Debt
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The thief on the cross never ate of the eucharist, nor did any israelite prior to the scene of the last supper....yet their justification is based on faith in the One true God, not tactile mastication.
jrico2727
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A direct command from the Savior, God Himself is not merely "tactile mastication".

From John 6

51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."
Catag94
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So, I still would like to understand the Catholic answer to this question:

What are your thoughts on other, non Catholic, Christian believers who never partake of the Eucharist in Catholic Mass and their eternal life?
Zobel
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Not catholic but believe in the real presence.

It's to their own detriment and is beyond sub-optimal for them, but God loves mankind.
Catag94
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k2aggie07 said:

Not catholic but believe in the real presence.

It's to their own detriment and is beyond sub-optimal for them, but God loves mankind.


Thank you.

So I would ask those like Catholics, why thy disallow other to partake. I understand the common answer, but I would suggest that why not offer Christ truly present to anyone who wishes to partake? I am not Catholic but my wife is and I attend Catholic Mass weekly without fail (Until this week!). I have a real relationship with Christ and several priests whom have gotten to know me over the years would be first in line to substantiate that claim. I would also assure you that I believe in the real presence of Christ at Holy Communion. I would argue that I have a far better understanding and truer belief than that of the young kids whom are taking their first communion. Yet, I am disallowed.

I believe Jesus knew the heart of his betrayer the night of the last supper but there is no indication he withheld that from Judas.

Regardless, if you believe everlasting life is in the Eucharists, why would you withhold it from anyone?
jkag89
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Catag94 said:

k2aggie07 said:

Not catholic but believe in the real presence.

It's to their own detriment and is beyond sub-optimal for them, but God loves mankind.


Thank you.

So I would ask those like Catholics, why thy disallow other to partake. I understand the common answer, but I would suggest that why not offer Christ truly present to anyone who wishes to partake? I am not Catholic but my wife is and I attend Catholic Mass weekly without fail (Until this week!). I have a real relationship with Christ and several priests whom have gotten to know me over the years would be first in line to substantiate that claim. I would also assure you that I believe in the real presence of Christ at Holy Communion. I would argue that I have a far better understanding and truer belief than that of the young kids whom are taking their first communion. Yet, I am disallowed.

I believe Jesus knew the heart of his betrayer the night of the last supper but there is no indication he withheld that from Judas.

Regardless, if you believe everlasting life is in the Eucharists, why would you withhold it from anyone?
The priest you have gotten to know would be a far better place to get the answers to the questions you are asking.
Catag94
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Yes, agreed except I'd like understand the general Catholic's idea. A couple of the priest I know have said they would have no issues with me taking communion.
jkag89
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Catag94 said:

Yes, agreed except I'd like understand the general Catholic's idea. A couple of the priest I know have said they would have no issues with me taking communion.
Then why don't you?
Catag94
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That priest has moved. Also, I don't think the priest can approve it on his own. A think a Bishop can. Perhaps some on here will correct me.

Nonetheless, I still don't understand denying anyone Christ Body and Blood.
Zobel
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Because it's more than communing with God, through Him we also commune with each other. It's a confession of common faith, and we believe that we should be of one faith, because there's one cup, one bread, one mind, etc. If you are not of the same faith, you shouldn't commune. If you are, then there's no reason to not be catholic, or orthodox, or whatever.
jkag89
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And as I suggested, there are better places than a side forum of a site dedicated to the sports teams of a particular university to find the answers in which you seek.
jrico2727
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Catag94 said:

k2aggie07 said:

Not catholic but believe in the real presence.

It's to their own detriment and is beyond sub-optimal for them, but God loves mankind.


Thank you.

So I would ask those like Catholics, why thy disallow other to partake. I understand the common answer, but I would suggest that why not offer Christ truly present to anyone who wishes to partake? I am not Catholic but my wife is and I attend Catholic Mass weekly without fail (Until this week!). I have a real relationship with Christ and several priests whom have gotten to know me over the years would be first in line to substantiate that claim. I would also assure you that I believe in the real presence of Christ at Holy Communion. I would argue that I have a far better understanding and truer belief than that of the young kids whom are taking their first communion. Yet, I am disallowed.

I believe Jesus knew the heart of his betrayer the night of the last supper but there is no indication he withheld that from Judas.

Regardless, if you believe everlasting life is in the Eucharists, why would you withhold it from anyone?
If your believe in the real presence and go to Mass weekly then cross the Tiber and come on home.

When you take Communion beyond receiving the body and blood of Christ you are making a statement of faith. To be in Communion is to state that you believe in the Church and all that she teaches. Unfortunately, this isn't always the case with some Catholics, just look at a lot the prominent Catholic politicians. Thus I would not attend a Orthodox Divine liturgy and try to receive the Eucharist from them even though I believe they have a truly valid Sacrament. Nor would I partake of any form protestant communion, even though I don't believe it to be valid.

Also, one needs to be in the proper disposition to receive the Eucharist. That is why we have the Sacrament of Reconciliation in order to keep ourselves in a state of Grace. If one receives improperly they bring judgment to themselves, as St. Paul teaches in scripture.

As someone who is an adult convert to Catholicism, I understand your frustration. I can remember going to Mass and having to cross my arms for a blessing instead of receiving my Lord, that I longed to receive. I would ask you to see this not as an act of exclusion, for we wish for full communion, in all that it means, with all believers. Look as it as a act of charity because we don't want you to bring any judgment upon your self or make an act that is not in line with your beliefs.

I would recommend reading paragraphs 1322-1400 in the Catechism for a better understanding.
Zobel
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Also some clue in the word itself. koinonia means joint participation or partaking together, sharing-with. When we commune, we're sharing with together everything, ourselves and each other and our whole lives, as living sacrifices. If you're not on the same page, it's not something you should do lightly.
The Debt
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Quote:


58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."

Using this as proof text is absolutely retahrded because you are left with an illogical position.

The flesh (via bread) of christ gives eternal spiritual life, not immortality of your current life. This means the patriarchs, prophets, and any faithful believer in OT is not only dead on earth but also lacking eternal life (ergo eternally dead.)

Or...and I know this is a stretch...a jew was using a metaphor. The abrahamic covenant is a covenant of faith not of works, it is this reason the thief on the cross can be with christ in paradise without eating the literal flesh of Jesus.
Zobel
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Christ Jesus told them several times to eat His flesh. Even when they started to leave He didn't say - hey guys, no no, you misunderstood, it was a metaphor!

I heard someone put it well once. If He was literally trying to tell them His flesh was actually food, what more could He have said?

This is the way it has been understood since the very, very early days. We have no time when it wasn't understood this way except by those outside the Church - who usually denied the Incarnation. As St Irenaeus said "Our teaching is in accord with the Eucharist and the Eucharist, in its turn, confirms our teaching."
Catag94
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None of those priests are currently serving our parish any longer. Besides, if understand correctly, while perhaps a Bishop can approve this, I don't believe a priest alone can.

Nonetheless, I still don't understand withholding Christ's body and blood from anyone who desires Him.
jrico2727
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Where is the logic in your line of thinking that those who had no opportunity to receive the Eucharist,The OT patriarchs and St. Dismas, were saved by the mercy of God because of their faith should apply to those who don't receive the Eucharist because of their lack of faith in the salvific grace of the Eucharist?
The Debt
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jrico2727 said:

Where is the logic in your line of thinking that those who had no opportunity to receive the Eucharist,The OT patriarchs and St. Dismas, were saved by the mercy of God because of their faith should apply to those who don't receive the Eucharist because of their lack of faith in the salvific grace of the Eucharist?

Take it up with john 6:58. By the catholic understanding the ancestors (patriarchs etc) are indeed spiritually dead d.e.d. dead because they (as you have rightly identified) are not time travelers.

If you understand the bread metaphorically, those who partake on the Word of God have eternal life. Many ancestors who had the Pentateuch et al did not have the salvivic experience from the Word of God:

Isaiah 29:13 "Then the Lord said, 'Because this people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote'."

If the bread is meant to be literal flesh, the ancestors are SOL. If the bread is meant to be a metaphor of feasting on the word of God, you have consistency between the salvivic aspect of the abrahamic covenant (which Christians are still 100% partaking in, see Galatians, or Romans).
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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k2aggie07 said:

The Word of God is the God, but the scriptures are not the word. This is a kind of idolatry.

The mark of the Church per St Paul is one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism; one loaf, one Body, one cup. The universal church - meaning, according to the whole, not everywhere or without exception or broad or versatile - is the Church which worships the same Lord, has the same Faith, Baptism, bread, cup.

Bravo. That same church is also the pillar and bulwark/foundation of truth.
Catag94
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Here are more scriptures for reference to eternal life and Another reference to "food" from Jesus.

John 5:24 NASB
[24] "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life


Romans 8:16-17 NASB
[16] The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, [17] and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

John 3:36 NASB
[36] He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Proverbs 8:35 NASB
[35] "For he who finds me finds life And obtains favor from the LORD.

And another example
Of Christ referring to food:

John 4:32 NASB
[32] But He said to them, "I have food to eat that you do not know about."

John 4:34-35 NASB
[34] Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work. [35] Do you not say, 'There are yet four months, and then comes the harvest'? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look on the fields, that they are white for harvest.

AgLiving06
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So then you should be a Messianic Jew right? Because it would be logically inconsistent to say that Jesus established a New Covenant with his Body and Blood, yet not really because it needs to be symbolic.
Thaddeus73
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Quote:

I do have a couple questions for you guys.

Given the OP for this thread and under the current circumstances in our suddenly unfamiliar country, where masses have been cancelled indefinitely at this point, imagine if you were somehow forced to go months, or God forbid, years without a formal Mass and the ability to partake of the Eucharist. If this were to be a reality, how do you see this impacting your eternal life?

What are your thoughts on other, non Catholic, Christian believers who never partake of the Eucharist in Catholic Mass and their eternal life?


Sorry - In the event that the blood of the new Covenant is not available, then we have a "spiritual Communion" that we can say:

My Jesus,
I believe that You
are present in the Most Holy Sacrament.
I love You above all things,
and I desire to receive You into my soul.
Since I cannot at this moment
receive You sacramentally,
come at least spiritually into my heart. I embrace You as if You were already there and unite myself wholly to You. Never permit me to be separated from You.
Amen.

If a person does not know about the reality of the Eucharist being the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ, as was taught by the Apostolic Fathers, then I believe Jesus will take that into account on their judgment day. BUT, if they do know it in their heart of hearts, and reject it, then I fear for them...
GasPasser97
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My feeble understanding:

Truly believing and confessing John 3:16/Apostles Creed/Nicene Creed opens up the opportunity for Baptism for every one of us.

The Word...in flesh and written...leads us to Baptism.

Baptism, should we partake in it...marks us as heirs of the Kingdom of Heaven...opens a line of communication between us and God...opens the doors to eternal life with God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ...Son of God...Son of Man...paid the ultimate price for us to have this opportunity...and leading up to that, He showed us The Way...

Jesus on the Cross...the offer of Baptism...paid the price for our sins and reopened the gates of Heaven for us.

BUT...we can reject this gift...turn our backs on it and God's face from it...even after Baptism.

Even Lucifer knew and talked to God...but ultimately refused Him through vanity.

We...or at least I...do the same over and over again.

Even though I am Baptized...and thus have the gates of Heaven opened to me...through sin and choice occasionally piss on that gift.

It's the curse and struggle we all continually battle.

But we aren't left to struggle alone...

If I can can walk as perfectly as possible in the footsteps of Jesus Christ...Heaven is promised to me.

If I can't (and I won't)...Jesus has given me the gift of Reconciliation/Confession.

If I confess my sins to His church...His body on earth...given the power to loosen the bonds of sin...I can dust myself off and approach Him again and again...without shame or remorse or regret.

THAT'S what the Eucharist is about...

It's not denial to others...it's not even about salvation, in and of itself (in my humble understanding)

It's about approaching the Son of God without the taint of sin...and allowing Him to touch and change our souls.

By my own example, it's not a permanent fix.

But by striving for His example...by purifying myself to the extent that I might me worthy of His body and blood touching my soul...I may...one day...be worthy of walking by His side forever...
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GasPasser97
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The Eucharist is the holiest and most perfect experience of God we can have in this world.

To be worthy of it...and the reason it is protected so vigorously...means we have to walk perfectly in the footsteps of Jesus...or confess completely of our sins to His body on earth...the church.

To do so allows us to, temporarily, join with His body in Heaven.

That's what the Mass is all about...purifying ourselves in order to join the Blessed Mary, Blessed Joseph, and all the apostles, saints, and martyrs in continual worship and praise of God..the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

They earned it...we work towards it.

And it happens, all across the world, every hour of every day...great or small.

Let us all work toward being worthy of participating in this worship and celebration.

Let us all work toward being worthy of the Body and Blood of Christ to help strengthen our souls on the way...
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