That's why I try to post to inquire further in case someone hasn't done their research on an individual or topic.

As for thoughts on hell, Jesus spoke on it quite a bit and the last book of the Bible should be examined and studied. It's a critical belief issue.

Good to hear back. Have a great Thanksgiving.

Gig Em

Have read Revelation a lot. And Jesus spoke of Gehenna, hell was an invented word by the KJV. And of course, his Jewish audience would have no idea of extrapolating Gehenna into hell until Augustine was primarily the author of that.

As far as a critical belief issue, arguably the greatest evangelist in history, Paul, never mentioned it.

And weird how the KJV translators translated the exact same word, Sheol,(which means grave), into "hell" half the time and grave the other half. And always in favor of the punishment of "hell" which did not exist in historic Jewish thought.

Not to mention that there were political overtones also because a Roman emperor wanted the people to be afraid.
And is it really justice for an orphan in India who never heard about Jesus to be tortured eternally? By a loving God who created him/her?
We will agree to disagree.

Have a great Thanksgiving!

And edited to add that if belief in ECT hell is a salvific issue then several saints are roasting. Like St. Gregory of Nyssa.

Didn't plan to get into this, but since you keep replying: His thoughts and ways are higher than yours or mine; we won't understand everything this side of eternity; because you or I wouldn't have something a certain way doesn't make it correct or true; the way to heaven is a narrow gate/path; the Bible is truth, even the parts I don't understand fully; if someone says 'I can't imagine a God who ..." or "my God wouldn't...", be careful, that person is tending to make God in their own image.

No problem. And I definitely know I am not trying to do that.

Just curious, have you ever researched how the concept of ECT hell came about?

Paul never mentioned it which I consider odd. Especially presenting the Gospel to a non theistic audience of Gentiles.

And God can and does whatever He wants as He always has. I am just a truth seeker and have spent years researching how the ECT concept of hell came about. It is fascinating.

And as long as we realize it is not a salvific issue, I have no problem. Never seen a Scripture that says if you do not believe in "hell"(either Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, or Tartarus) that you are damned to go there.

And I sincerely mean Happy Thanksgiving and I hope we put a hundred on LSU!

Agree non salvific. Ascribe to annihilationism, universalism? Don't think scriptures teach these and would "cheapen" the cross. I think it's natural to struggle with the thought of a literal hell, but have to go where the scriptures lead.

Agilaw said:

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Agree non salvific. Ascribe to annihilationism, universalism? Don't think scriptures teach these and would "cheapen" the cross. I think it's natural to struggle with the thought of a literal hell, but have to go where the scriptures lead.

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There is no Scripture to my knowledge saying Jesus came to save us from "hell"

From death and sin yes. To free the prisoner, etc. yes. To my knowledge there are no Scriptures saying the cross saved us from "hell".

Why would it cheapen the cross?

Agilaw said:

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Agree non salvific. Ascribe to annihilationism, universalism? Don't think scriptures teach these and would "cheapen" the cross. I think it's natural to struggle with the thought of a literal hell, but have to go where the scriptures lead.

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And actually a study of Scripture would probably be the most favorable to annihilation with universalism and ECT following behind.

Agilaw said:

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Didn't plan to get into this, but since you keep replying: His thoughts and ways are higher than yours or mine; we won't understand everything this side of eternity; because you or I wouldn't have something a certain way doesn't make it correct or true; the way to heaven is a narrow gate/path; the Bible is truth, even the parts I don't understand fully; if someone says 'I can't imagine a God who ..." or "my God wouldn't...", be careful, that person is tending to make God in their own image.

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To be honest, if I was trying to make God be like me there would be a ton of people in hell. But I know He is better than me.

dermdoc said:

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Have read Revelation a lot. And Jesus spoke of Gehenna, hell was an invented word by the KJV. And of course, his Jewish audience would have no idea of extrapolating Gehenna into hell until Augustine was primarily the author of that.

As far as a critical belief issue, arguably the greatest evangelist in history, Paul, never mentioned it.

And weird how the KJV translators translated the exact same word, Sheol,(which means grave), into "hell" half the time and grave the other half. And always in favor of the punishment of "hell" which did not exist in historic Jewish thought.

Not to mention that there were political overtones also because a Roman emperor wanted the people to be afraid.
And is it really justice for an orphan in India who never heard about Jesus to be tortured eternally? By a loving God who created him/her?
We will agree to disagree.

Have a great Thanksgiving!

And edited to add that if belief in ECT hell is a salvific issue then several saints are roasting. Like St. Gregory of Nyssa.

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I'd never heard that Paul didn't mention he'll.

However he does mention eternal destruction in 2 Thess 1

9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

"Away" is not in that verse. "Apo" means from. Annoys me every time. It's the same exact word for word as refreshing from the face of the Lord in Acts 3:19. Sorry, pet peeve.

But do not you think that if there was an eternal torture chamber, Paul would have emphasized it in his evangelizing?

Just seems odd as scaring people with eternal torment hell has been one of the mainstays of evangelism, especially since theGreat Awakening.

Zobel said:

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"Away" is not in that verse. "Apo" means from. Annoys me every time. It's the same exact word for word as refreshing from the face of the Lord in Acts 3:19. Sorry, pet peeve.

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Agree.

My pet peeve is the exact same word Sheol translated in the KJV OT half the time as "hell"(a concept Jews had no knowledge of)and half the time as grave.

Why?

And edited to add that more accurate translations likeYoung's Literal Translation do not even contain the word "hell".

And zobel, Young's Literal Translation and David Bentley Hart's NT agrees with you on the word "apo".

Zobel said:

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"Away" is not in that verse. "Apo" means from. Annoys me every time. It's the same exact word for word as refreshing from the face of the Lord in Acts 3:19. Sorry, pet peeve.

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I'm simply quoting the ESV, your issue is with the translators, not me.

dermdoc said:

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But do not you think that if there was an eternal torture chamber, Paul would have emphasized it in his evangelizing?

Just seems odd as scaring people with eternal torment hell has been one of the mainstays of evangelism, especially since theGreat Awakening.

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I shared a verse from Paul that seems to mention it. Maybe the translation is wrong or I am misunderstanding the statement.

Frok said:

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dermdoc said:

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But do not you think that if there was an eternal torture chamber, Paul would have emphasized it in his evangelizing?

Just seems odd as scaring people with eternal torment hell has been one of the mainstays of evangelism, especially since theGreat Awakening.

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I shared a verse from Paul that seems to mention it. Maybe the translation is wrong or I am misunderstanding the statement.

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I am not trying to be argumentative, just think that if there was an ECT hell, Paul would have been talking and writing about it all the time. I mean, that should be a definite point of emphasis in my opinion.

The translation of "eternal" is also interesting as the word "anion" usually was translated as an age or a period of time unless describing God.

Hart's translation of the same verse is

Who will pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of His might.

Young's Literal Translation

Who shall suffer justice, destruction age-enduring, from the face of the Lord and the glory of his strength.

Both of these seem to support the Orthodox theology of all dead humans in the same place with the glory of God being the ultimate joy to those in Christ and rehab punishment for those who are not.

Is your argument that hell doesn't exist or that it does but is not ECT?

Frok said:

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Is your argument that hell doesn't exist or that it does but is not ECT?

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I do not think hell exists. I believe in the Orthodox theology that we will all be in the presence of the Lord. For those who love the Lord, it will be "heaven", for those who reject the Lord it will be "hell".

I still question whether there is rehab by God on those who reject him. From my reading I favor rehab rather than retributive justice for those that reject God.

I think there are too many references in scripture to support that hell does not exist. I'll look up those translations as I've never heard of them.

But I think it sounds like a minimized version of hell that is more palatable and less offensive.

Frok said:

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I think there are too many references in scripture to support that hell does not exist. I'll look up those translations as I've never heard of them.

But I think it sounds like a minimized version of hell that is more palatable and less offensive.

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Respectfully disagree. And if you can find.a Scripture that says Jesus came to save us from hell I would be happy to acknowledge it.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Oh, I think the KJV is not a very accurate translation as compared to Young's literal or Hart's. Those are much more precise in Greek translation.

And I would avoid Strong' concordance if you want an unbiased translation as it is tied to the hip with the KJV.

It is fun to research this stuff.

Sorry for not being clear - I am definitely not taking issue with you, but with the translation.

dermdoc said:

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Frok said:

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I think there are too many references in scripture to support that hell does not exist. I'll look up those translations as I've never heard of them.

But I think it sounds like a minimized version of hell that is more palatable and less offensive.

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Respectfully disagree. And if you can find.a Scripture that says Jesus came to save us from hell I would be happy to acknowledge it.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Oh, I think the KJV is not a very accurate translation as compared to Young's literal or Hart's. Those are much more precise in Greek translation.

And I would avoid Strong' concordance if you want an unbiased translation as it is tied to the hip with the KJV.

It is fun to research this stuff.

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I use Biblos.com and interestingly it has YLT on there. Just never knew what that was. I don't see Hart though.

So finally, thread derailment over. We have circled back. Derm likes to read YLT and Hart for additional inspiration.

I like to read everything.