Sub tuum praesidium

4,741 Views | 81 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by dds08
Thaddeus73
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AG


We fly to Thy protection,O Holy Mother of God; Do not despise our petitions in our necessities,but deliver us always from all dangers,O Glorious and Blessed Virgin. Amen.
Sullysguy
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Seems like idolatry to me. Only Jesus should be worshiped.
Exsurge Domine
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Sullysguy
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bpchas2
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But Catholics "don't pray to Mary or Saints."
jrico2727
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AG
Many good Catholics pray to the Blessed Mother and the Saints daily. We do not worship her or the saints, only the Triune God. This current crisis we are in would come to a halt if all Catholics, Orthodox and protestants would get on their knees and humbly ask for her intercession.

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thine intercession was left unaided.

Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, my mother; to thee do I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me.

Amen
Exsurge Domine
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Sullysguy said:

deleted


Miss you fam, we still here

-Kyle
Ordhound04
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AG
It is a common misunderstanding among some Protestants that Catholics, Orthodox, and some Protestant denominations "worship" the saints because we pray for their intercession.

Within the Catholic Faith we makes these distinct with three terms.

Latria (The proper worship owed to God alone)

Dulia (Proper honor, not worship, given to Saints)

Hyper Dulia (Proper honor given to Mary as greatest of all saints)

When we pray to/through the saints, we are offering Dulia/honor, not worship.
Thaddeus73
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Only protestants think that intercessory prayer is "worshiping."
Sullysguy
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Intercessory prayer is praying to JESUS for the salvation of someone dead or alive. It is not praying to ANYONE already dead to go knock on Jesus's door in heaven and ask him a favor. All prayers go to God. Period. Is that not the example given by Jesus and all Old Testament prophets before him...?

Or did the psalmist say "oh methuselah, ask God On my behalf to help me?" ....?

Praying to saints is the remaining vestiges of Roman polytheism.
jrico2727
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AG
How many pennies have you put on Sully's Statue? Was that superstition or idolatry?
bpchas2
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I guess Catholics believe that Paul was lying or mistaken when he wrote to Timothy (1 Timothy 2:5). "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus."
diehard03
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Quote:

It is a common misunderstanding among some Protestants that Catholics, Orthodox, and some Protestant denominations "worship" the saints because we pray for their intercession.

At this point, you need to own the misunderstanding. (I don't mean you personally, but the Church) You are teaching Protestants that it looks like worship, and then always trying to backtrack with nothing more than "it's not because we just say it's not. We have some cool Latin to prove it, but it's still just because I said so".

Why do I say it looks like worship, because Protestants do exactly what your prayers do...just substitute Jesus for Mary. So, of course, it looks like you're worshiping Mary. This is further complicated the by sheer number of well-meaning but uninformed Catholics who give the wrong message about their own faith.

Might I suggest that if this is something you really want to solve, I would focus on defining worship first and establishing all the things you to in this regard to God and what you do separately to Mary.

jkag89
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bpchas2 said:

I guess Catholics believe that Paul was lying or mistaken when he wrote to Timothy (1 Timothy 2:5). "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus."
Then why do you ask others to pray for you?
diehard03
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Quote:

Then why do you ask others to pray for you?

You know the answer to this. James 5.

Now post your predictable response.
jkag89
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Hey, bpchas2 started the whole predictable thing. Knew exactly where this thread was going when I read Thad's initial post.
diehard03
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Quote:

Hey, bpchas2 started the whole predictable thing. Knew exactly where this thread was going when I read Thad's initial post.

Thad does it on purpose. And we willingly take the bait.

James 5 doesn't apply to Mary - wrong audience. James would not make sense to include Mary into that. Also, I would find any argument that it's not a prayer at all lacking...as the changing Mary to "God" and putting in the right corresponding language would most certainly be a prayer. You would fail the "walks like a duck, talks like a duck" test.

Boom. Roasted.

I really need to go back to the office.
jkag89
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I understand the objection, I simply wish that folks like bpchas2 would at least acknowledge the Catholic/Orthodox understanding of intercessory prayer even if they disagree with it.
jrico2727
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No we just don't think protestants interpret this scripture well.

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time.

Clearly St. Paul, (who is a powerful intercessor by the way, everyone should ask his help when reading his epistles ) was in favor of intercessory prayer for others. Why pray for anyone if only between them, Jesus and the father?

We believe in intercession between all members of the body of Christ. All the Saints from his blessed mother to the current members of the Church Militant (members of the church on earth) are one body through Jesus Christ. If we are all one mystical body then we share in suffering and triumph. The Church Victorious (members who are in heaven spiritually now)are close to God and the throne of Christ. They know what is happening on earth and can join with our prayer to Jesus who will intercede to the father on our behalf.

It is truly sad at the protestants took this out of your worship. That went against Christian tradition from the beginning and removed a powerful part of the life of Christian prayer. How does anyone think that giving respect to the Mother of God, the Theotokos, the one who bore the almighty with in her womb takes anything from Jesus? Right now she is sitting at the right hand of Christ our king as Queen of heaven and earth. Just like the Davidic kingdoms of the OT the Queen Mother is the intercessor of the people, 1 Kings 2:19-20.
19 When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king's mother, and she sat down at his right hand.
20 "I have one small request to make of you," she said. "Do not refuse me."
The king replied, "Make it, my mother; I will not refuse you."
Sullysguy
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Mary idolization has always fascinated me. She was human. No different from me. I believe the tradition arose centuries ago in order that the Catholic Church could provide females with something to aspire too, as an example of the perfect woman. Other than that, there is nothing concerning eschatology involving Mary or any other human. I would say that traditions are fine in general as long as they do not violate scripture. But praying to Mary and Saints is nowhere in scripture and and was not a Jewish practice. It was not something that the original Christians practiced at all. It became a creation sometime after the original churches. It was a marketing idea. Not a theological one.
jkag89
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Quote:

It was not something that the original Christians practiced at all.
Are you sure about that?

Rome's Catacombs witness to the Catholic faith of the early Church
Thaddeus73
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Quote:

Intercessory prayer is praying to JESUS for the salvation of someone dead or alive. It is not praying to ANYONE already dead to go knock on Jesus's door in heaven and ask him a favor. All prayers go to God. Period. Is that not the example given by Jesus and all Old Testament prophets before him...?
Mary, nor anyone else in heaven is "dead." Dead in the body does not equal dead in the soul, like you think. Luke 20: 38 says that God is not the God of the dead,, but of the living." That's what Catholics believe. And besides, 1 Corinthians 6:17 says that she and all others in heaven are united with the Lord.

And "mediation" is not intercessory prayer. Hebrews 12:24 says the Jesus is the mediator of the new Covenant, which has absolutely nothing to do with intercessory prayer...
diehard03
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Quote:

I understand the objection, I simply wish that folks like bpchas2 would at least acknowledge the Catholic/Orthodox understanding of intercessory prayer even if they disagree with it.

That was my original point earlier. That's on you. Yall are the one's that write what looks to be prayers to Mary.

On this thread alone Jrico says that "the current crisis we are in would come to a halt if all Catholics, Orthodox and protestants would get on their knees and humbly ask for her intercession". With struggle with how this not a call to prayer. We would say ...get on their knees and humbly pray to God."

This is why there's confusion.

The part that really boggles my mind is that this doctrine was so important that none of it was canonized into Scripture. James didn't see fit to mention it. None of Pauls canonical letters contained any confirmation that he was asking for her intercessory prayer.
swimmerbabe11
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This current crisis we are in would come to a halt if all Catholics, Orthodox and protestants would get on their knees and humbly ask for her intercession.

Please interpret this in the least snarky manner as possible, because I'm not trying to be snide.

Would this crisis come to a halt if we all got on our knees and asked God for his intercession?

Since intercessory prayer is supposedly no different than asking your friend to pray for you, would it not be more effective if one Christian asked her for intercession, while the rest of us directed our prayers to God... so that her voice would join the chorus of Christian prayers?

If 87 people ask me to pray for the ending of the CoronaVirus.. my prayers would not be more powerful than if one person asked me to... would it? Or is there a transference where by asking me to pray for them they are already praying by proxy?

I think is would have less issue with these types of prayers if they started "Oh please theotokos, pray along with me as I beseech your Son: ____insert the rest of the prayer here____, In the name of the Father, the Son, and The Holy Spirit Amen... btw thank you blessed virgin for taking the time out to pray with me today. "
Serotonin
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Does it bother you at all that you are now in disagreement with every single apostolic church on this point? Are you right and they are all wrong?

The Coptic Church, Armenian Church, Roman Church, Greek Church, Georgian Church, Churches of Asia Minor and Africa. All wrong?
swimmerbabe11
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That really doesn't answer any of my questions.
I don't disagree that the saints pray in heaven and pray for the church.
Serotonin
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OK, fair point. My answer would be that most Christians pray to God maybe 30-60 minutes per day. Carving out some time from the other 23 hours to ask for help from those who can help us makes sense.
diehard03
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Quote:

Does it bother you at all that you are now in disagreement with every single apostolic church on this point? Are you right and they are all wrong?

The Coptic Church, Armenian Church, Roman Church, Greek Church, Georgian Church, Churches of Asia Minor and Africa. All wrong?

Did you really ask a Protestant if they thought "every single apostolic church" was wrong on this point?
Serotonin
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AG
Yeah, what's the big deal?
diehard03
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Quote:

Yeah, what's the big deal?

She's not just now in disagreement with those churches, but has always been...your comment just struck me as very strange.
Serotonin
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diehard03 said:

Quote:

Yeah, what's the big deal?

She's not just now in disagreement with those churches, but has always been...your comment just struck me as very strange.

OK, sorry about that.
jrico2727
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AG
To put this in the most relatable terms possible, go to Mama. If you got in trouble at school or got a bad grade who do you tell first dad or Mom? Who is the person most people would never refuse? That would be their mother. Mary has a relationship with God we could never imagine. She is the Mother of the son, the spouse of the Spirit and the daughter of the Father. James 5:16 states "The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful."

The reason I said a all of us uniting our prayer with Mary would be powerful and miraculous is because miracles through her intercession have happened before and our sure to happen again, look at the battle of Lepanto for example. We are taught that at the cross Jesus gave Mary to all of us to be our spiritual mother. Think how moved she would be if all her sperated children got together for the first time in 1000 years. Our Lord taught us that a house divided cannot stand, if we all could unite as the body of Christ there would be an abundance of miracles and we would be a sign for the world.
jkag89
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I understand. I've been posting on this board a very long time. I've tried to explain the Catholic understanding of intercessory prayer many times using different tacks. Others have also. Still almost every time the topic arises someone posts 1 Timothy 2:5,, usually someone who has been interacting on this forum long enough to be familiar what Catholics believe and do not believe on the subject.
Thaddeus73
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AG
Quote:

Mary idolization has always fascinated me. She was human. No different from me.
Well, this is an astounding statement. "Blessed art thou among women," God says in the Bible. She is more blessed than your mother and my mother, then. Genesis 3:15 is the prophesy (the protoevangelium) that says she will crush the serpent's head. Revelation 12:17 says that we are her children if we obey the commandments and testify that Jesus is the messiah (something the nation of Israel has NEVER done). Jesus gave her to us as our mother from the cross in one of His 7 last words (His words were addressed to the disciple whom he loved - which is also you and me). It's awful hard to be born again without a mother. Just as Eve became the physical mother of us all at the foot of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Mary became our spiritual mother (BEHOLD YOUR MOTHER) at the foot of the tree of life known as the cross.

So no, you are not prophecied in the bible, and you were not chosen to be the living tabernacle of the King of Kings for 9 months...
Sullysguy
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This idea that asking someone to pray for you is the same as praying to saints is a bad analogy. I don't bow down in front of a friend and "pray" to him in order that he pray for me.

There are different verbs for "ask/request" and "pray" for a reason, both of which are used in the Bible. Prayer is more reverent. Reverence is for God alone. Prayer is not this false equivalence of "asking" a friend. Prayer in Hebrew culture was to God alone, and was reverent. Paul was Hebrew. He wrote from a Hebrew perspective. All of the New Testament writers were Hebrew.

And yes Mary is Blessed among women because God blessed her. Not because she is God. A tabernacle is unimportant under the Law of Christ. Mary was a human. No better than my mother. She was lucky to be chosen to be the human vessel to carry God, but she did not become a God herself.

The Roman hold on Catholic minds all stems from stubbornness in my humble opinion. The whole island of Ireland remained Catholic solely out of hate for the British. Arguments like "Mary is like mama, that's why we pray to her" make no sense theologically.

There are Catholic doctrines with which I disagree, that have legitimate argumentation behind them. Intercessory prayer to Mary and Saints is not one of them. Hebrew thought was completely different from the Roman conception of polytheism. Hebrews never thought of praying to anyone but God. And the New Testament writers were.... Hebrew. This is so evident it needs no further elaboration. Only stubbornness remains at this point.
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