As I was jogging today I had a feeling of gratitude. I pondered on the verse that says offer your bodies as living sacrifices holy and pleasing to God. Although I don't like physical exercise I go out and do it even though I don't enjoy it. I do it for the Lord and because this physical body isn't mine. I was bought with a price and I must honor Him with it (this body).

While on this jog I tried to imagine if I didn't have a concept of God or if I didn't believe in him.

Who would I thank for having this physical body? Who would I thank for being able to experience these thoughts? Every so often I thank God for things. Would I just take many things for granted? That would be sinful. I wouldn't know that it was sinful, but I'd be missing out on the feeling of gratitude.

Things like this is why, even though I don't believe anymore, I think believing is probably the best thing for most people.

Think about it. What if God didn't exist, or at least not the one you believe in? You are still keeping yourself healthy, you are looking and life through a better lens, you are thankful and have a good attitude. Why does god not being real make that bad?

I believe that human nature is such that all societies will ultimately find a god in one form or another. As such, I think the christian version of God has proven to be the most effective in creating a safe and successful society, and is the reason why it has lasted as long as it has.

I'm not saying "good for thee but not for me", because belief, as I have said before, is not something you can "choose".

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belief, as I have said before, is not something you can "choose".

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I might agree with you in certain context. I do agree that when you know, you know, whether for or against belief. I am often surprised by the reasons people give for believe or not believe...they are often lacking. (I am fully aware that others would find my reasons lacking as well...lending credence to your point)

But, I do think people can "believe before they believe", and want to try see if it might be right, as it were.

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I believe that human nature is such that all societies will ultimately find a god in one form or another.

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What's your form of God? Not meant to be snarky, I just don't remember from what you've previously posted.

Even when you have substantial evidence either way about a certain truth, the belief you hold is a result of your brain taking every possible input in can on the matter and forming somewhat of a "hunch". Still not chosen outright.

Desire to believe in something can indeed lead to eventually believing in it, because as you go about gathering more evidence, you will bias it with your confirmation bias and can lead yourself into believing something. But simply choosing to believe something, I do not believe is possible.

If I place an upside-down coffee mug in front of you and tell you that under it is a $100 bill, what will you believe?
Your mind will examine every possible form of evidence you can think of and you will come to a belief based on that. You might say something like "you are a good guy, so I am going to choose to believe you would not lie, so I choose to believe that there is a $100 in there." If that were really the reason, then what your mind would have done is examine every aspect of my character that you have personally experienced and come to a conclusion based of past experience on what you think is likely to be the case and what you used the word "choose" for is actually an involuntary action within your mind.

Also, I said that society will find one form of a god or another. As for individuals, I think they can operate just fine without a personal god if they have a foundation in a good moral culture.

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Even when you have substantial evidence either way about a certain truth, the belief you hold is a result of your brain taking every possible input in can on the matter and forming somewhat of a "hunch". Still not chosen outright.

Desire to believe in something can indeed lead to eventually believing in it, because as you go about gathering more evidence, you will bias it with your confirmation bias and can lead yourself into believing something. But simply choosing to believe something, I do not believe is possible.

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How are you defining choice then? Because based on this, there is no choice ever.

Every single choice we make is basically this calculation down to a hunch.

While I do think free will is an illusion, that's a deeper subject.

Sorry, didn't get to finish my thought because something came up so I just posted what I had wrote.

In the case we are talking about "belief", a "choice" in a belief would mean that you (whatever constitutes you, your ego, your consciousness, your spirit, what have you) could simply arbitrarily pick something to believe, and suddenly, your mind believes it.

When we say things like "I choose to believe" we really are describing a subconscious thing, or we are just lying.

If you hear the neighbor you like down the street was reported for abusing their kid, but no real evidence has come out to the public yet, you may say, "well, I choose to believe he's innocent". However it's not a choice you made at all. Either you are lying to others to sound nice, lying to yourself in an attempt to think about such a horrible thing of your friend (in this case, you wouldn't actually believe he's innocent, you would just stop yourself from thinking about it at all so as to not allow yourself to be more convinced), or describing the subconscious decision that your neighbor is innocent because of the combination of all the information you have on him and his character.

Belief and the decision of what we believe is a very complex neurological system that is built on from the day we have our first conscious thoughts. It's a system of pattern recognition and anticipation that our brains hone constantly and we do not consciously control it at the point of "decision making".

Disagree. That sounds like a horrible way to view life. Maybe it is just me.

This statement is basically saying "I choose not to believe that because I would not be happy if it were true". But the truth would be more like "I choose to not allow myself to actually consider that possibility because I am afraid of how I would feel if I did believe it".

And there, is where you can get to somewhat of a "free will" in the matter. You can keep yourself from processing all the data so you can never get to a fully fleshed out belief. Our communicating part of the brain is a whole different system and it is a firewall between what we truly believe and what we say we believe.

I think the most simple way to illustrate what actual "belief" is would be to ask you to imagine a very serious person with a gun to your head asking you what you believe about something, and if your belief is wrong, you will die. In that scenario, your brain will truly get to what you believe.

I just think you are wrong. No fear involved.

And your example is not always true. Martyrs make the decision that something is more valuable than their life.

It feels like you typed out a lot of words to just say "yes, there's no such thing as choice".

To Dermdoc, I would say that you shouldn't be too worried about it. You still have to live in your own head and the illusion of choice really isn't that bad a thing. You don't know you don't have a choice...so no worries.

Well the point of the scenario is to put someone in a position where their their biggest fear is to be absolutely correct, regardless of their emotions or desires.

I use my free will to choose not to worry about it.

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I know you mean well, so I am just asking this question because this thread seems dead otherwise...

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This thread was dead, however it took quite a fascinating turn! I agree, to a certain extent, with some of the points made. Thank you 7nine for keeping this thread alive by commenting. I am grateful for your comments.

On a different note, If I didn't have gratitude for the blessings from above, my whole disposition towards all that I have would be completely different.

I believe that out of all the things we have in our possession, we squander that which we take for granted.

Next time you pray, listen more than you talk, if you are a believer, then trust what u hear. That simple.

...... when I give my burdens to the cross, the quietness in my soul afterwards is such joy. Sin can and will cause a disconnect and prevent you from hearing what God's plans are for u.