Do you see yourself as perfect?

1,238 Views | 8 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Catag94
Catag94
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AG
I don't, but perhaps I should. And, perhaps that's how God sees me. How about you?

Hebrews 10:14 NIV
[14] For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Hebrews 10:17-18 NIV
[17] Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." [18] And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.


Zobel
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AG
That word there is not perfect as in flawless or without blemish, error. That would be amomos.

It is teteleioken from teleoi to consummate or bring to an end. It is the perfection of completion, of fulfillment and reaching the end or aim or purpose for which you were created.

Subtle distinction but a significant one. You could paraphrase that as by one offering He has completed you as you are being made holy.
Catag94
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AG
Agreed, but I think it's more the meaning of perfected as in: He added what was required to be completed or perfected. As such, should we who are believers recognize that God sees us as perfected as we are in Christ?
Zobel
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AG
Right, but the operative word is the one you keep using. Perfected. It seems you want this to mean perfect as we use it colloquially - "she's absolutely perfect". It doesn't quite mean that.

Here's the definition for the word in question.
https://biblehub.com/greek/5048.htm

I know it's a nice comforting verse to like cross stitch or something but we shouldn't take it out of context. The passage is about Christ, and how His death and resurrection changes the relationship between God and man. You can tell the author isn't being super precise about our end of things because in one breath he says we are having been sanctified by the offering in another he says being made complete we are being sanctified.
Zobel
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AG
It's also instructive to read the Old Testament scriptures that inform his understanding of Christ's sacrifice.

The first is Psalm 40 - specifically the Septuagint (Greek) translation, which is a little different than what is in the NIV (comes from the Masoretic Hebrew text, which is a later version by about 800 years).

You can read it in the Septuagint here:
https://biblehub.com/sep/psalms/40.htm

The first part is a theme in the OT that is like a drumbeat - that the sacrifices and offering under the Law were not in and of themselves what pleased God. This is repeated over and over and over again in the Psalms and Prophets. What St Paul (or someone else, possibly Apollos) is doing here is showing that the Psalms are teaching us what the alternative is to those sacrifices, or really what they represent and foreshadowed. That's what 10:1 says, the Law is a shadow of the good things coming.

So to him, now we can see clearly what the prophetic Psalm means - a body is prepared for the Messiah to do the will of God, and that is what pleases God. The author adds an interpretive gloss to the Psalm in 10:8 by adding the words "for sin". Verse 14 is the conclusion of this thought, and in this light we see clearly that the perfection is the completion of...what? The perfection implies reaching an end. Clearly the end isn't sanctification or being made holy, because he said perfected (past tense) those being sanctified (present tense). The perfection is that of sacrifice, of worship. Our sacrifice and worship, is complete in Christ's sacrifice, in one offering. And not only in sacrifice in a general way, but the offering of the very same body that was prepared for Him.

This is why St Paul says, our actual worship is to present our bodies as living sacrifices - but our living bodies are the body of Christ, so our perfected worship is to participate in this same once for all (ephapax) offering.

The next two quotes are both from Jeremiah 31, so now the author is linking the sacrifice of the Messiah for sin with the new covenant. So the final and perfect offering for sin has opened up to a new way of living and interacting with God, which again was foretold. And it's not the old covenant, but a new one. A new redemption story - not out of Egypt, but out from under death. A new and living way (v20).

This is the basis of the whole understanding of our confidence (v19) assurance (v22), our hope (v23), the reason we prod one another to do good (v24), the reason we even assemble as a church (v25) AND the reason we endeavor to keep ourselves from sin (v26-31).

That's the context of "perfect" in this chapter.
chimpanzee
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It's like in legalese when you are "perfecting" a contract, right? More in reference to a state after the verb "perfect" has been done to you.

I never really thought of it that way, but it's a nice way to hope that God is doing this to you, something to pray to be open to. Fulfill me to His satisfaction. Can't ask for more than that.
dermdoc
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AG
A very wise 90+ y/o nun explained to me that she likes to think of it as becoming "whole" or "completed". And that makes sense to me.
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Martin Q. Blank
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Quote:

For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
How do you make something holy if it's already perfect?
AgLiving06
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I think some of the confusion comes in how you're trying to frame the question. It's really two different questions you're asking.

Question 1: Are you perfect?

Scripture clearly answers this as no.
1. We were conceived into sin
2. We have hidden sin that we aren't necessarily aware of.
3. Our flesh is a slave to sin.
4. Etc.

Question 2: Will God judge us as sinless?

This also clear that those who persevere in faith in Christ will be judged sinless.
1. We are justified through faith
2. Eternal life is the free gift of God.

Catag94
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AG
So, through the other scriptures, (thanks for the deeper study K2aggie07) I have a better understanding of the context and meaning in this chapter.
Also, I do think I framed the question in a bit of a provocative way (with a hint of intention), and a bit premature of a better grasp on the Greek usage of the word.
With that said, and despite the intended meaning of this particular text, it is my belief that as a committed follower of Christ, having been baptized in the Spirit, I have been Justified, made righteous, and saved. Also, that I am being saved, and will be saved. So, despite having posted the question in the OP in a bit of a provocative manner, and doing so with a premature understanding of the text from which it comes, I do think that when God looks at me, he sees Jesus, he sees perhaps perfection in the way the specific text doesn't really intended it.
To the point Agliving06 makes, I know none of us is perfect and that we all sin, but also for those who believe and are truly reborn of the Spirit, we are knew creations. While we struggle with the flesh, I do think God sees us as the perfected works we will be and are in Christ. CertInly we must endure to the end (not that we earn our salvation, but that we will because our faith and our salvation are real.)
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