Romney invoked his faith several times in his explanations about his vote to convict the President of abuse of power. The majority of responses by supporters of his political party call into question that motivation and instead assert that he was motivated by jealousy or spite towards the President.

Is it better to be cynical or take Romney's explanation at face value?

Gator03 said:

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Question: "Should we question people's sincerity about their faith?"
Answer: "No"

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Really? There is no line? I admit that when a megachurch pastor flies a private jet and drives a Bentley bought with tax-free donations I question their sincerity. Or when a priest is a habitual sexual abuser. Or when a singer's songs are about sex, drugs, and murder but they thank God for their awards. Or when celebrity is caught doing something really bad and for the first time ever is openly religious during the aftermath. Or when a politician consistently votes opposite to major tenets of their faith. Maybe all these people are living lives of holiness and I'm being unfairly skeptical.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Gator03 said:

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Question: "Should we question people's sincerity about their faith?"
Answer: "No"

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Really? There is no line? I admit that when a megachurch pastor flies a private jet and drives a Bentley bought with tax-free donations I question their sincerity. Or when a priest is a habitual sexual abuser. Or when a singer's songs are about sex, drugs, and murder but they thank God for their awards. Or when celebrity is caught doing something really bad and for the first time ever is openly religious during the aftermath. Or when a politician consistently votes opposite to major tenets of their faith. Maybe all these people are living lives of holiness and I'm being unfairly skeptical.

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Where are we instructed to judge others? What would the goal be?

It seems as though this is forbidden or extremely discouraged for two reasons:

1. It places us in the role of God in judging the hearts of other men, when we do not come close to having the knowledge to do so.
2. It leads us to forget about our own sins.

This is why Scripture and the Fathers constantly warn against it.

Abba Dorotheos:

Quote:

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Do you know what a serious sin it is to judge one's neighbor? For what is more serious than this? What it is that God hates so much, what is so loathsome to him? As the fathers have also said, there is nothing worse than judging. However, a man comes to this great evil from such disregard for the seemingly insignificant. For, from allowing himself a slight disdain for his neighbor, from saying, "Of what importance is it if I listen to what this brother says?" or "What importance is it if I also say that or that word? Of what importance is it if I look to see what this brother will do, or that pilgrim?"from these very things a person's mind begins to leave its own sins unattended and notice the sins of his neighbor. Later from this we come to judge, speak evil of and belittle our neighbors, and finally, we fall into the very same thing which we are judging. For because a man does not take care for his own sins and does not weep, as the Fathers have said, over his own dead man, he cannot prosper in anything good, but rather constantly turns his attention to the deeds of his neighbor. And nothing so angers God, nothing so deprives a man and leads him into the state of abandonment by God as spiteful talk, or judgment, or belittling of neighbor.

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http://orthochristian.com/60661.html

AstroAg17 said:

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Some politicians view themselves more as a representative of the people's wishes than an independent actor. That's Biden's explanation for being pro abortion. I think it's consistent and does not imply that his faith is insincere.

The vast majority of accusations of insincerity are based off disagreements in principle. That's a pretty bad basis for accusation. People aren't satisfied by the possibility that a politician could honestly see things differently than they do, so they assume dishonesty.

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I've heard that and it just sounds like politics-speak for "I'll do whatever it takes to get elected", and it shows how much they are willing to devalue or abandon their own principles.

The professed lack of judgementalness is also a bit less than credible. Let's say you have the choice to donate money to Kenneth Copeland or the Salvation Army. Once, you are making a judgement about which organization will most use that money in a way pleasing to God. How many people are buying pop country and rap music albums that sing about alcohol and drugs to play at church or religious events, just because the musicians thanked God at the Grammys? Sounds like a judgment to me. Everytime we donate money, volunteer, buy anything, or work for anyone we are making judgements.

The point is to keep the rest of the world from thinking that a famous person is representative of your faith. Since we're on politics, many politicians vote for abortion rights and also tout their Christian, usually Catholic, faith. If you don't contest this, then you are giving that person a platform to broadcast beliefs that don't match yours. Same thing with any of the behaviors I mentioned above. If David Duke mentions Jesus during every speech but also espouses hatred, then some people might just start to think that Jesus espoused hatred too.

To me it's imperative to judge bad behavior, and it is imperative not to let people who have continual bad behavior be the spokesperson for our faith

Or I could say that you are being naively credulous. Any charlatan can claim to be sent by God and ask for your money and service. Any person can disengeniously use God as a shield from appropriate criticism. Some people explicity try to tie God to thinks that He is specifically against.

Wasn't Jesus' entire criticism of the Pharisees their false appearance of holiness? Jesus was harsher against false piety than pretty much anything else.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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The point is to keep the rest of the world from thinking that a famous person is representative of your faith. Since we're on politics, many politicians vote for abortion rights and also tout their Christian, usually Catholic, faith. If you don't contest this, then you are giving that person a platform to broadcast beliefs that don't match yours. Same thing with any of the behaviors I mentioned above. If David Duke mentions Jesus during every speech but also espouses hatred, then some people might just start to think that Jesus espoused hatred too.

To me it's imperative to judge bad behavior, and it is imperative not to let people who have continual bad behavior be the spokesperson for our faith

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With all due respect, I do not think most Christians would pick folks with the actions of David, Abraham, Jacob, Rahab, etc. as representatives of our faith.

And I personally think there is a difference between making a decision and judging someone. And especially judging the sincerity of anyone's faith.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Or I could say that you are being naively credulous. Any charlatan can claim to be sent by God and ask for your money and service. Any person can disengeniously use God as a shield from appropriate criticism. Some people explicity try to tie God to thinks that He is specifically against.

Wasn't Jesus' entire criticism of the Pharisees their false appearance of holiness? Jesus was harsher against false piety than pretty much anything else.

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That is a good point. But I am not Jesus.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Or I could say that you are being naively credulous. Any charlatan can claim to be sent by God and ask for your money and service. Any person can disengeniously use God as a shield from appropriate criticism. Some people explicity try to tie God to thinks that He is specifically against.

Wasn't Jesus' entire criticism of the Pharisees their false appearance of holiness? Jesus was harsher against false piety than pretty much anything else.

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Thus far the debate revolves around public figures who have been investigated and exposed as having a lot of competing motivations (for instance mitt wanting a cabinet position or his son being on foreign boards, like Biden's).

I say no because we get comfortable with the idea that for the vast majority of people we will know enough to say. We won't and don't for most. And that even goes for these two. Biden may die a little inside with every vote to kill babies but doesn't see any conflict in doing it since it isn't his belief he's supporting. I have a neighbor that worked in dc and he said Biden was one of the few guys that greeted the troops and seemed genuinely interested in them, and that he really loves his son and tries to help him as much as he can with his wife dead (it's all he has left along with the grandchildren). He may be absolutely clueless and finding out about this mess as it develops (like his new grandchild from the stripper). I don't believe that's true but it is still possible, meaning I could be wrong. For all I know he had a shouting match with hunter after hunter asked for help in the Ukraine but found out the prosecutor was, legitimately, corrupt and then pushed for the firing.

It is a better use of our time examine the action instead of the person because people are complicated and messy and we never get the whole picture. It is not a question of faith but behavior, and our love for God comes and goes because we are fickle, though He is not

Good post.
And it is kind of like Rahab and the other Biblical figures I listed above. Sure you can say they sinned. But question their sincerity, especially of their faith? Not me brother.

I'm fine with living and letting live as long as someone is being meek and humble with their faith, not seeking to gain from it, and not seeking to use it for some selfish purpose. The minute they start asking for money, volunteers, votes, or lighter punishment due to their faith I'm going to get skeptical pretty much instantly.

Who cares if Mitt sincerely believes in Mormon nonsense or not? It's verifiably false, which makes sincere belief almost worse.

He may be quite sincere in his faith, but quite insincere about using it to influence that vote. The vote in reality had nothing to do with his faith and all about petty jealousy of Trump.

They're not mutually exclusive.

LonghornDub said:

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Of course, to make reasoned decisions we have to make judgments of people, their sincerity, etc. I believe that what is important for Christians is to remember to make those judgments with as much kindness and mercy as honesty. I do believe that we will be judged in the same manner as we judge others, both now and in the hereafter.

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Good post my friend.

My study has convinced me of a number of things. God can use anyone and anything to accomplish His goals which much of the time are beyond our understanding. Many years ago it dawned on me that the sorriest, greediest, most self righteous hypocritical radio preacher had brought some people to a relationship with the Almighty. At the same time, he may be driving others away from developing their faith by his crassness. In my old age, I shy away from judging others as much as possible, but I also try to associate with those I think have a good influence on myself and others. I am no preacher and have committed many sins, and I'm hoping for mercy, not justice, although we are taught that God is just to forgive the sins of those who believe in his Son. I just pray a lot now - mostly for others. It beats judging most of the time.

Thanks. I enjoyed reading yours too.

Woody2006 said:

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Who cares if Mitt sincerely believes in Mormon nonsense or not? It's verifiably false, which makes sincere belief almost worse.

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Exactly.

Plus, claiming to be 'deeply religious' and citing 'my grandkids' as one behaves in a very duplicitous and vindictive manner on a political matter (involving an obvious sham literally no other Republican member of Congress could even pretend to fall for)?

Well, whatever, I judge him to be a duplicitous sanctimonious jerk. Don't try to hide behind your faith at such times.

Quote:

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I'm fine with living and letting live as long as someone is being meek and humble with their faith, not seeking to gain from it, and not seeking to use it for some selfish purpose. The minute they start asking for money, volunteers, votes, or lighter punishment due to their faith I'm going to get skeptical pretty much instantly.

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I think we are talking about different things, and makes the conversation difficult.

Everyone is right you one cannot judge the sincerity of what one believes. You can't be inside someone's head and you don't know what God has called them to.

Conversely, it is fair to raise concerns to our brothers/sisters as to whether their actions as modeling what they claim to follow. It's just wrong of us to immediately jump to questioning that claim.

LonghornDub said:

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My study has convinced me of a number of things. God can use anyone and anything to accomplish His goals which much of the time are beyond our understanding. Many years ago it dawned on me that the sorriest, greediest, most self righteous hypocritical radio preacher had brought some people to a relationship with the Almighty. At the same time, he may be driving others away from developing their faith by his crassness. In my old age, I shy away from judging others as much as possible, but I also try to associate with those I think have a good influence on myself and others. I am no preacher and have committed many sins, and I'm hoping for mercy, not justice, although we are taught that God is just to forgive the sins of those who believe in his Son. I just pray a lot now - mostly for others. It beats judging most of the time.

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We could be brothers from another mother. And fwiw, I believe as you do about the character of God. As revealed through Christ. And that is really what these discussions are always about. The character of God.

dermdoc said:

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And the Trumps just need to stop kicking the dog. Never stop an enemy when they are beating themselves up. In fact, heap praise, plaudits, and prayers on them. It will drive them nuts.

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. . . also cuz its the right thing to do, right? But mostly because it will drive them nuts.

kurt vonnegut said:

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dermdoc said:

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And the Trumps just need to stop kicking the dog. Never stop an enemy when they are beating themselves up. In fact, heap praise, plaudits, and prayers on them. It will drive them nuts.

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. . . also cuz its the right thing to do, right? But mostly because it will drive them nuts.

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It is the right thing to do. Even if it does not drive them nuts.

Proverbs 25: 21-22

I wasn't questioning whether or not its the right thing to do, only your priorities.

MooreTrucker said:

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He may be quite sincere in his faith, but quite insincere about using it to influence that vote. The vote in reality had nothing to do with his faith and all about petty jealousy of Trump.

They're not mutually exclusive.

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Really?

Calling someone else petty and jealous towards Trump? That's some rich irony.

Why? I'm neither petty nor jealous of Trump on Romney.