There can be no real prayer where there is no sense of need

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chuckd
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AG
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

This will always be the case the moment a man, for the first time, sees the kingdom of heaven. Whether that first time is in heaven or in hell makes no difference; the moment a man sees the kingdom of heaven, he is certain to begin to pray. The reason is this, he sees a satisfying portion, and his heart thirsts after it. If this happens in this world, his prayer will be heard, and for Christ's sake, and by Christ, his hungering and thirsting will be satisfied; but if it occurs in hell, the prayer will be too late, for man's need can only be satisfied by Christ, and there is no Christ in hell.

This cry for water was the first real prayer the Rich Man had ever uttered. He might have "said his prayers," as people call it, night and morning when on earth; but now he was no longer merely saying prayers, but praying; the words of his lips were the genuine desires of his heart: he really and truly wanted that for which he professed to ask. Had he so prayed on earth, God would have given him "rivers of living water," but he had not so prayed; indeed, he could not, for on earth he felt no need of what he wanted in hell. It is possible, I say again, that he might regularly have said his prayers, but the Rich Man never prayed until he lifted up his eyes in torments; he had nothing to pray for till then: on earth, he had everything except God, and on earth, he felt no need of God. There can be no real prayer where there is no sense of need.

Would that the vast distinction between saying prayers and praying was more pressed home upon congregations by their ministers, and on the world generally, by godly teachers and other Christians. How comparatively small compared with those who content themselves with what they term saying their prayers, is the number of those who really pray. Many have said their prayers from their earliest childhood, who have never prayed; many have for years knelt night and morning at the family altar, and joined Sabbath after Sabbath in professed worship, who have never prayed; many, both in public and in private, have put themselves daily from their youth upwards in the attitude of prayer, and uttered from the mouth words of prayer, whose so-called prayers have not only not been prayer, but blasphemy. SAYING PRAYERS WITHOUT PRAYING IS BLASPHEMY! God has said, "The Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain." Yet I believe that no greater breach of the Third Commandment ascends from earth into the ears of God, than that which too often ascends from the closet and from family circles, excepting only that which ascends on the Sabbath day from the public assemblies of God's professing worshipers.

Brownlow North, The rich man and Lazarus (Luke xvi.19-31) a practical exposition
Texaggie7nine
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A god of love wants people to be scared into praying to him out of fear of eternal torment??
7nine
Frok
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AG
What he's saying is that many of us pray but we don't truly thirst for God. We simply pray for our needs to be met or we are just reciting the words we think we should be praying.



Texaggie7nine
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Frok said:

What he's saying is that many of us pray but we don't truly thirst for God. We simply pray for our needs to be met or we are just reciting the words we think we should be praying.




Yet he starts out the exposition pointing out that once in Hell, it's too late to pray to Jesus because he does not answer prayers there.
7nine
dermdoc
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Most of my prayers are praise and gratitude based. So not really a "need". And I also think God hears all prayers. Even ones repeated over and over.
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jrico2727
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Pray unceasingly, the Holy Spirit will make up for what we lack. As St Paul teaches in Romans 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings."
DirtDiver
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Quote:

A god of love wants people to be scared into praying to him out of fear of eternal torment??
I do not think this is deduced from the biblical text. What can be deduced is that the man in hell would have probably been a passionate missionary and bible study participant if given a 2nd chance.

27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house 28 for I have five brothersin order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29 But Abraham *said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' 30 But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'
Martin Q. Blank
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dermdoc said:

Most of my prayers are praise and gratitude based. So not really a "need". And I also think God hears all prayers. Even ones repeated over and over.
Did you only read the thread title? Be honest.
Martin Q. Blank
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Texaggie7nine said:

Frok said:

What he's saying is that many of us pray but we don't truly thirst for God. We simply pray for our needs to be met or we are just reciting the words we think we should be praying.




Yet he starts out the exposition pointing out that once in Hell, it's too late to pray to Jesus because he does not answer prayers there.
Yes, it's assumed there is a hell and Jesus is not there.
Texaggie7nine
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So there are places in this universe that Jesus/God is powerless to do anything about?
7nine
Martin Q. Blank
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Texaggie7nine said:

So there are places in this universe that Jesus/God is powerless to do anything about?
No, he can even make you a Christian. If you'd only pray for it.
Texaggie7nine
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Texaggie7nine said:

So there are places in this universe that Jesus/God is powerless to do anything about?
No, he can even make you a Christian. If you'd only pray for it.
While I'm in hell? Or is Jesus powerless there?
7nine
Martin Q. Blank
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Texaggie7nine said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Texaggie7nine said:

So there are places in this universe that Jesus/God is powerless to do anything about?
No, he can even make you a Christian. If you'd only pray for it.
While I'm in hell? Or is Jesus powerless there?
No, you won't be saved in hell, but punished. Jesus taught about it a lot.
Texaggie7nine
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So Jesus has the power to answer my prayer from hell as I am riven with torment, but he will choose not to and to let me burn, because he loves me?
7nine
Martin Q. Blank
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Texaggie7nine said:

So Jesus has the power to answer my prayer from hell as I am riven with torment, but he will choose not to and to let me burn, because he loves me?
Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Texaggie7nine
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"I warned my wife I would beat her.... she didn't listen...that's on her"
7nine
Martin Q. Blank
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Texaggie7nine said:

"I warned my wife I would beat her.... she didn't listen...that's on her"
The bride of Christ will be saved.
dermdoc
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AG
Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Most of my prayers are praise and gratitude based. So not really a "need". And I also think God hears all prayers. Even ones repeated over and over.
Did you only read the thread title? Be honest.


I honestly read the whole thing. I have a real problem when folks(usually of the Reformed variety) who judge the sincerity of even the prayer lives of other Christians.
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Martin Q. Blank
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dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Most of my prayers are praise and gratitude based. So not really a "need". And I also think God hears all prayers. Even ones repeated over and over.
Did you only read the thread title? Be honest.


I honestly read the whole thing. I have a real problem when folks(usually of the Reformed variety) who judge the sincerity of even the prayer lives of other Christians.
How could someone judge something done in secret? And done with the heart?
dermdoc
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AG
Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Most of my prayers are praise and gratitude based. So not really a "need". And I also think God hears all prayers. Even ones repeated over and over.
Did you only read the thread title? Be honest.


I honestly read the whole thing. I have a real problem when folks(usually of the Reformed variety) who judge the sincerity of even the prayer lives of other Christians.
How could someone judge something done in secret? And done with the heart?


I do not know. But the author of the article sure seemed like he knew that a lot of folks were not "sincere" when they prayed. Maybe I read it wrong?
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Martin Q. Blank
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dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Most of my prayers are praise and gratitude based. So not really a "need". And I also think God hears all prayers. Even ones repeated over and over.
Did you only read the thread title? Be honest.


I honestly read the whole thing. I have a real problem when folks(usually of the Reformed variety) who judge the sincerity of even the prayer lives of other Christians.
How could someone judge something done in secret? And done with the heart?


I do not know. But the author of the article sure seemed like he knew that a lot of folks were not "sincere" when they prayed. Abe I read it wrong?
Yes, big assumption on his part. All of MY prayers are 100% pure and sincere. The OP is not for people like you and me.
dermdoc
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AG
C'mon man
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Martin Q. Blank
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Someone saying you should be sincere in your prayers is judging others?
Texaggie7nine
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Texaggie7nine said:

"I warned my wife I would beat her.... she didn't listen...that's on her"
The bride of Christ will be saved.


Ah so more accurately it would be "I warned that girl that she better love me and marry me or I would beat her.... so that's on her. "
7nine
dermdoc
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AG
Martin Q. Blank said:

Someone saying you should be sincere in your prayers is judging others?


No that is fine. He went much further than that in my opinion.
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Martin Q. Blank
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Texaggie7nine said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Texaggie7nine said:

"I warned my wife I would beat her.... she didn't listen...that's on her"
The bride of Christ will be saved.


Ah so more accurately it would be "I warned that girl that she better love me and marry me or I would beat her.... so that's on her. "
Worse. Remember this is a Calvinist. He warned her, but then forced her to not love him.
Martin Q. Blank
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dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Someone saying you should be sincere in your prayers is judging others?


No that is fine. He went much further than that in my opinion.
How so?
dermdoc
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AG
I feel like he is yelling at me and saying my prayers are not "sincere" enough. And if I do not pray "sincerely" I am going to Hell. And in my Bible I find no criteria like that for salvation.

Do you think he is being condemning or affirming? And have you truly met the Lord?
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Martin Q. Blank
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dermdoc said:

I feel like he is yelling at me and saying my prayers are not "sincere" enough. And if I do not pray "sincerely" I am going to Hell. And in my Bible I find no criteria like that for salvation.

Do you think he is being condemning or affirming? And have you truly met the Lord?
He is condemning insincere prayers. And the Rich Man's prayer in hell was his first sincere prayer. Why do you think he was talking to you?
dermdoc
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AG
He talks about how small the number of people are who "really pray", correct? How does he know that? And who defines what "real prayer" is? He is being condemning and exclusive rather than affirming and inclusive. He does not talk about the benefit and joy of sincere prayer but basically you are hosed if you do not pray "sincerely" as he defines it. Strikes me as the folks who claim others are not "real" Christians because they do not do what they do. I do not get that exclusiveness and condemnation when I read the Bible.

And edited to add, how does he know that was the rich man's first "sincere" prayer? I do not recall the rich man's prayer life being discussed in this PARABLE.
Maybe it is just me.
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Martin Q. Blank
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dermdoc said:

He talks about how small the number of people are who "really pray", correct? How does he know that? And who defines what "real prayer" is? He is being condemning and exclusive rather than affirming and inclusive. Strikes me as the folks who claim others are not "real" Christians because they do not do what the others do. I do not get that exclusiveness and condemnation when I read the Bible.

And edited to add, how does he know that was the rich man's first "sincere" prayer? I do not recall the rich man's prayer life being discussed in this PARABLE.
Maybe it is just me.
Because saying prayers is easy. Sincerely praying is hard.

Matt. 7:13 Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
dermdoc
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AG
And friend, I have already posted several times the myriad of verses supporting universal reconciliation. And there are also numerous verses where Christ compares himself to the door or gate for his sheep and/or people. Christ is the narrow way and few will find him and get abundant life. And joy. And peace. That does not mean they are condemned to "Hell" in my opinion.

But that is just me.
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dermdoc
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AG
And sincerely praying is not hard.

How did Jesus instruct us to pray? How did He tell us to come into Him? I believe He said as little children. What did he say about our yoke and burden? Is it heavy or light?

John 3:17
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

Now that is Good News!
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Martin Q. Blank
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dermdoc said:

And friend, I have already posted several times the myriad of verses supporting universal reconciliation. And there are also numerous verses where Christ compares himself to the door or gate for his sheep and/or people. Christ is the narrow way and few will find him and get abundant life. And joy. And peace. That does not mean they are condemned to "Hell" in my opinion.

But that is just me.
You asked why the author thought few really pray. Answer: because it's hard. And our Lord said few will take the hard route.
Frok
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AG
The passage is meant for you to reflect on the motives of your heart. Do you truly thirst for Christ? Or do you just want things to go "well" in your own life. That's what I got out of it. Sometimes my prayer life can sound like health and wealth are the main concerns. If they are then I am like the people that followed Christ because he gave them free bread but then left when he said a difficult teaching.



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