Compassion and Empathy for the Flawed

1,603 Views | 16 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by tehmackdaddy
Smokedraw01
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I've really been struggling with how binary society is regarding people and their actions. One bad act or mistake tends to make that person that thing. A person makes an error or perceived error in judgement and forever are labeled that thing.

Let's look at the Kobe biography. The guy is possibly a rapist but it seems like he's so much more to so many people. He's getting a pass on that(right or wrong) but Harvey Weinstein will forever be a rapist. Or Bill Cosby. Or Roman Polanski.

My question is how do you rationalize who you think someone is or should be labeled.

Sorry for the rambling and probably worst possible people to bring up.
Zobel
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The ideal is to look to yourself and never condemn anyone else. In practice this is very hard, of course.

Do not regard the feelings of a person who speaks to you about his neighbor disparagingly, but rather say to him: "Stop, brother! I fall into graver sins every day, so how can I criticize him?' In this way you will achieve two things; you will heal yourself and your neighbor with one plaster. This is one of the shortest ways to the forgiveness of sins; I mean, not to judge. `Judge not, and ye shall not be judged."
- St. John Climacus, The Ladder of Divine Ascent

"If a man sins and denies it, saying, 'I have not sinned,' do not correct him, or you will destroy any intention he might have of changing. If you say, 'Do not be cast down, my brother, but be careful about that in the future,' you will move his heart to repent."
- Abba Poemen, sayings of the Desert Fathers

A brother who had sinned was expelled from the church by the priest. Whereupon Abba Bessarion rose and went with him, saying, 'I too am a sinner.'
- Sayings of the Desert Fathers

If you want to find rest here below, and hereafter, in all circumstances say 'Who am I?' and do not judge anyone.

- Abba Joseph


A brother at the monastery committed a fault. A council was called to which Abba Moses was invited, but he refused to go to it. Then the priest sent someone to say to him, 'Come, for everyone is waiting for you.' So he got up and went. He took a leaking jug, filled it with water and carried it with him. The others came out to meet him and said to him, 'What is this, Father?' The old man said to them, 'My sins run out behind me, and I do not see them, and today I am coming to judge the errors of another.' When they heard that they said no more to the brother but forgave him.
BusterAg
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Kobe was a great basketball player. He will always be that first. Seems like he was an OK dad.

MLK was a man with great ideas and great courage. He was also a philanderer.

Bill Cosby was funny. Very relatable humor. Did a lot of good things for race relations in this country.

I don't know enough about Weinstein, to be honest, and really don't want to know.

Michael Jordan had a gambling problem. So did Pete Rose. It looks like Altuve was stealing signs. Baseball was literally on steroids in the 1990's.

All of these people let us down in some way.

What do you expect when you idolize imperfect people?



BTW, if you are giving out compassion and empathy, I'll take some of that too, please. I am far from perfect.
Frok
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We are all sinners and I agree this idea that one mistake defines a person's life is troubling. But people do need to be corrected when they cause harm to another.

It's good to give grace and be humble. You never know what life will throw at you.
Captain Pablo
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k2aggie07 said:

The ideal is to look to yourself and never condemn anyone else. In practice this is very hard, of course.

Do not regard the feelings of a person who speaks to you about his neighbor disparagingly, but rather say to him: "Stop, brother! I fall into graver sins every day, so how can I criticize him?' In this way you will achieve two things; you will heal yourself and your neighbor with one plaster. This is one of the shortest ways to the forgiveness of sins; I mean, not to judge. `Judge not, and ye shall not be judged."
- St. John Climacus, The Ladder of Divine Ascent

"If a man sins and denies it, saying, 'I have not sinned,' do not correct him, or you will destroy any intention he might have of changing. If you say, 'Do not be cast down, my brother, but be careful about that in the future,' you will move his heart to repent."
- Abba Poemen, sayings of the Desert Fathers

A brother who had sinned was expelled from the church by the priest. Whereupon Abba Bessarion rose and went with him, saying, 'I too am a sinner.'
- Sayings of the Desert Fathers

If you want to find rest here below, and hereafter, in all circumstances say 'Who am I?' and do not judge anyone.

- Abba Joseph


A brother at the monastery committed a fault. A council was called to which Abba Moses was invited, but he refused to go to it. Then the priest sent someone to say to him, 'Come, for everyone is waiting for you.' So he got up and went. He took a leaking jug, filled it with water and carried it with him. The others came out to meet him and said to him, 'What is this, Father?' The old man said to them, 'My sins run out behind me, and I do not see them, and today I am coming to judge the errors of another.' When they heard that they said no more to the brother but forgave him.


Can Orthodox sit on juries? Be prosecutors? Cops?
Zobel
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Sure, why not?
Captain Pablo
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k2aggie07 said:

Sure, why not?


Would not sentencing Someone to life in prison or
To death be condemning them?
Zobel
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Being unwilling to judge someone as a sinner, to condemn them as a sinner, is not the same as being asked in a civic capacity to make a judgment on the facts of a case.

There's a difference between that and what the OP was saying. If I'm asked to serve as a juror, I do what I need to do. But I can't say after that I can condemn that person, or that that person is a (insert crime name here).
Captain Pablo
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k2aggie07 said:

Being unwilling to judge someone as a sinner, to condemn them as a sinner, is not the same as being asked in a civic capacity to make a judgment on the facts of a case.

There's a difference between that and what the OP was saying. If I'm asked to serve as a juror, I do what I need to do. But I can't say after that I can condemn that person, or that that person is a (insert crime name here).


I see
Zobel
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I do think there is a kind of radical embrace of love and forgiveness in the examples of the fathers. St Seraphim of Sarov was badly beaten by robbers, and showed up to argue at their trial for clemency. St Paisios took confession from a murderer and fugitive then declined to turn him in to the police. St Moses the black himself was a murderer and thief who was taken in by monks.

It's very challenging for me - it is extremely impractical. But it is probably the higher way. I would say that police and courts, like earthly government and military forces, are sad concessions to the reality of living in the fallen world. The people who can truly embrace their role as sojourners and citizens of heaven are able to transcend this reality and live as perhaps we all should. But again, this is a difficult thing.
Texaggie7nine
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Because, cultures and societies have a drive to virtue signal their morality.

If you don't want people to sexually assault others in your society, you feel you must publicly condemn everyone found guilty of such action and even more so if they are famous and well known. We have an innate fear in us that if we were to not be so judgmental then some people with bad inclinations to do the things we don't want others to do might think that it's not so bad to do them.

It's no different than when a thread on Forum 16 comes up about some adult that sexually abused a child. You will see many posts that are nothing but the author describing how they would physically harm that person. Or naming horrible things that should be done to that person.

This is how so many in today's hyper socialized interactions online react to just about everything.
7nine
Barnyard96
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Check out chapter 8 "The Great Sin" in Mere Christianity by CS Lewis.
diehard03
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Quote:

Let's look at the Kobe biography. The guy is possibly a rapist but it seems like he's so much more to so many people. He's getting a pass on that(right or wrong) but Harvey Weinstein will forever be a rapist. Or Bill Cosby. Or Roman Polanski.

There's always specific reason why some guys get a pass and some don't.

Harvey Weinstein has become the face of the previously-faceless seedy underbelly of the movie industry and everyone assumed was there.

Bill Cosby's era has gone by and his indiscretions are front and center.

Polanski doesn't have anything the public cares for, like the others. He wasn't a beloved figure before (at least I think)

Kobe's incident has had considerable time passed, and he's done the necessary things that a high powered PR firm would dictate he do. I don't condemn for this. It's smart business.
tehmackdaddy
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Texaggie7nine said:

Because, cultures and societies have a drive to virtue signal their morality.

If you don't want people to sexually assault others in your society, you feel you must publicly condemn everyone found guilty of such action and even more so if they are famous and well known. We have an innate fear in us that if we were to not be so judgmental then some people with bad inclinations to do the things we don't want others to do might think that it's not so bad to do them.

It's no different than when a thread on Forum 16 comes up about some adult that sexually abused a child. You will see many posts that are nothing but the author describing how they would physically harm that person. Or naming horrible things that should be done to that person.

This is how so many in today's hyper socialized interactions online react to just about everything.

I do not believe I have ever posted on forum 16 like you describe, but I do confess I lust for the earthly judgement of adults who abuse children physically and sexually. There is a very distinct line in my moral character that, if crossed, I do not care about the damage to my own soul when I experience extreme satisfaction if earthly, legally vigilante justice is carried out.

I fully acknowledge this is probably not what God wants for my heart and also confess I do not want this line removed from me.
Captain Pablo
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tehmackdaddy said:

Texaggie7nine said:

Because, cultures and societies have a drive to virtue signal their morality.

If you don't want people to sexually assault others in your society, you feel you must publicly condemn everyone found guilty of such action and even more so if they are famous and well known. We have an innate fear in us that if we were to not be so judgmental then some people with bad inclinations to do the things we don't want others to do might think that it's not so bad to do them.

It's no different than when a thread on Forum 16 comes up about some adult that sexually abused a child. You will see many posts that are nothing but the author describing how they would physically harm that person. Or naming horrible things that should be done to that person.

This is how so many in today's hyper socialized interactions online react to just about everything.

I do not believe I have ever posted on forum 16 like you describe, but I do confess I lust for the earthly judgement of adults who abuse children physically and sexually. There is a very distinct line in my moral character that, if crossed, I do not care about the damage to my own soul when I experience extreme satisfaction if earthly, legally vigilante justice is carried out.

I fully acknowledge this is probably not what God wants for my heart and also confess I do not want this line removed from me.


You would trade everlasting salvation, and accept permanent damnation for the likely passing satisfaction of vengeance and executed vigilantism?

You got some hard bark on ya
tehmackdaddy
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Captain Pablo said:

tehmackdaddy said:

Texaggie7nine said:

Because, cultures and societies have a drive to virtue signal their morality.

If you don't want people to sexually assault others in your society, you feel you must publicly condemn everyone found guilty of such action and even more so if they are famous and well known. We have an innate fear in us that if we were to not be so judgmental then some people with bad inclinations to do the things we don't want others to do might think that it's not so bad to do them.

It's no different than when a thread on Forum 16 comes up about some adult that sexually abused a child. You will see many posts that are nothing but the author describing how they would physically harm that person. Or naming horrible things that should be done to that person.

This is how so many in today's hyper socialized interactions online react to just about everything.

I do not believe I have ever posted on forum 16 like you describe, but I do confess I lust for the earthly judgement of adults who abuse children physically and sexually. There is a very distinct line in my moral character that, if crossed, I do not care about the damage to my own soul when I experience extreme satisfaction if earthly, legally vigilante justice is carried out.

I fully acknowledge this is probably not what God wants for my heart and also confess I do not want this line removed from me.


You would trade everlasting salvation, and accept permanent damnation for the likely passing satisfaction of vengeance and executed vigilantism?

You got some hard bark on ya

Nope.

I do not think what I espouse is wrong, nor do I think it is a disqualifier to the Kingdom.

If my fallen nature is best summed up with this, I have done well.
Captain Pablo
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tehmackdaddy said:

Captain Pablo said:

tehmackdaddy said:

Texaggie7nine said:

Because, cultures and societies have a drive to virtue signal their morality.

If you don't want people to sexually assault others in your society, you feel you must publicly condemn everyone found guilty of such action and even more so if they are famous and well known. We have an innate fear in us that if we were to not be so judgmental then some people with bad inclinations to do the things we don't want others to do might think that it's not so bad to do them.

It's no different than when a thread on Forum 16 comes up about some adult that sexually abused a child. You will see many posts that are nothing but the author describing how they would physically harm that person. Or naming horrible things that should be done to that person.

This is how so many in today's hyper socialized interactions online react to just about everything.

I do not believe I have ever posted on forum 16 like you describe, but I do confess I lust for the earthly judgement of adults who abuse children physically and sexually. There is a very distinct line in my moral character that, if crossed, I do not care about the damage to my own soul when I experience extreme satisfaction if earthly, legally vigilante justice is carried out.

I fully acknowledge this is probably not what God wants for my heart and also confess I do not want this line removed from me.


You would trade everlasting salvation, and accept permanent damnation for the likely passing satisfaction of vengeance and executed vigilantism?

You got some hard bark on ya

Nope.

I do not think what I espouse is wrong, nor do I think it is a disqualifier to the Kingdom.

If my fallen nature is best summed up with this, I have done well.


You said you did not care about the damage to your soul. What if that damage is extreme? More extreme than you think?
tehmackdaddy
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Captain Pablo said:



You said you did not care about the damage to your soul. What if that damage is extreme? More extreme than you think?

I do not think this disqualifies me.
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