Kobe attended Mass the morning before he died

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FTACo88-FDT24dad
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I thought this was noteworthy. It seems like Kobe was living in the friendship of God before his tragic death.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/kobe-a-devout-catholic-reportedly-attended-mass-morning-of-accident
94chem
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Thank you for posting. I had no idea. My daughter's Sunday school teacher passed away Friday after a long battle with breast cancer, in her 40's. You see all of this suffering, and then in an instant, you no longer have to pray for her. She's healthier now than I've been my entire life. Then, on Sunday, there's this shock of hearing about Kobe. He had everything a person could want in this life, and in an instant he steps into eternity where not one bit of it means a darned thing. There were 9 souls on that helicopter, none more precious to God than any other. I hope they all knew Christ, but it's good to hear this about Kobe. This morning I looked up the story of Pete Maravich, and as OP points out, they may have had more in common than being basketball legends who died young. There's one heckuva pickup game going on right now.
AggieEyes
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Be kind and genuine. You don't need to know Christ, Allah, Buddha, Horus, Odin or any of it. We'll find out when we find out. Kobe was deep into the study of eastern religion / philosophy as well. It makes no difference. Above all else Kobe was a student and loved to learn.

Numb and devastated by the news. RIP Mamba.
94chem
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AggieEyes said:

Be kind and genuine. You don't need to know Christ, Allah, Buddha, Horus, Odin or any of it.
You may have that choice, but I no longer do.
Infection_Ag11
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94chem said:

Thank you for posting. I had no idea. My daughter's Sunday school teacher passed away Friday after a long battle with breast cancer, in her 40's. You see all of this suffering, and then in an instant, you no longer have to pray for her. She's healthier now than I've been my entire life. Then, on Sunday, there's this shock of hearing about Kobe. He had everything a person could want in this life, and in an instant he steps into eternity where not one bit of it means a darned thing. There were 9 souls on that helicopter, none more precious to God than any other. I hope they all knew Christ, but it's good to hear this about Kobe. This morning I looked up the story of Pete Maravich, and as OP points out, they may have had more in common than being basketball legends who died young. There's one heckuva pickup game going on right now.


I really struggle with the ramifications of my beliefs in situations like this, if carried to their logical conclusion. It's a belief system where a father and daughter who were as close as can be could die so tragically together like this, and in the next instant one could be in heaven and one is hell if the belief systems didn't align.

I believe it, but I really hate that I believe it sometimes. There are definitely rabbit holes my mind can go down theologically that make me wish it weren't true at times.
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Serotonin
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What are your beliefs?

As discussed somewhat in the QB thread, it's an unfortunate byproduct of a certain strand of Christianity that many Christians today seem to think that if you don't believe the exact right thing at the moment of death you will be tortured by God forever.
Infection_Ag11
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Gator03 said:

What are your beliefs?

As discussed somewhat in the QB thread, it's an unfortunate byproduct of a certain strand of Christianity that many Christians today seem to think that if you don't believe the exact right thing at the moment of death you will be tortured by God forever.


I believe the Bible teaches those who die without the saving grace of Jesus go to an eternal hell, and if I'm going to take the Bible at it's word on anything I have to take all of it. Even the parts I don't like.
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Zobel
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Where does it say that? Eternal hell?
Infection_Ag11
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And to clarify, I don't necessarily believe in some form of eternal torture chamber. There's enough in the NT where I can see how some come to that conclusion but I tend to favor the simply total separation from God version of Hell.
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Infection_Ag11
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k2aggie07 said:

Where does it say that? Eternal hell?


Matthew and Revelations specifically present pretty impassable barriers to those who argue there isn't some form of eternal punishment/separation for those who die without Jesus.

Revelations in particular actually presents a pretty good case for those who believe in eternal conscious torment, but I think the totality of the Bible leads me to believe the tormented are simply without God and fully aware of it. Still horrifying, especially as a parent, but not eternal torture.

I've come to view all arguments against any type of eternal punishment as a coping mechanism for those who simply can't live with the ultimate ramifications of their beliefs, and I totally get it. I really do. It's a system I don't understand. I wish I could believe in universalism or the termination of consciousness for nonbelievers, but there's just no support for that.
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Zobel
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Be comforted then that the same phrase used to talk about "hell" and "heaven" is usually translated in a different way. "From the face of the Lord" is the same way the saints receive refreshing and those receive the penalty. Word for word the same in 2 Thes 1:9 and Acts 3:20. There is no separation from God; and even if there were such a separation would be, by definition, nonbeing.

And I think the modern / evangelical notions of heaven and hell are actually fairly unbiblical and borderline pagan concepts appealing to a kind of dualism. Strong contrast to the physical and restorative picture the scriptures present. Particularly St John in his Revelation. And - I think that's also an extremely misunderstood book, if only because people don't read it "in genre" as apocalypse and therefore highly symbolic writing. Which, taken together, lead to folks thinking much like you.
Infection_Ag11
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k2aggie07 said:

Be comforted then that the same phrase used to talk about "hell" and "heaven" is usually translated in a different way. "From the face of the Lord" is the same way the saints receive refreshing and those receive the penalty. Word for word the same in 2 Thes 1:9 and Acts 3:20. There is no separation from God; and even if there were such a separation would be, by definition, nonbeing.


The problem with this argument though is one, it only addresses a small fraction of the verses dealing with eternal punishment and two, if applied consistently it calls into question numerous other aspects of Biblical theology. In other words, if we allow for such dramatic translational errors it opens up the possibility that numerous fundamental Christian theological principles are in fact simply based on this issue. And at that point, how can we believe any of it?
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Zobel
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Yeah. Crazy right? Almost like modern people translating the scriptures into English are laboring under a great deal of theological presuppositions.

And it's not dramatic. Go read it.
https://biblehub.com/text/acts/3-20.htm

https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/1-9.htm

Why translate "apo" as from and then "away from"? Same exact phrase. Same word. Should be from both times. Or rather, all three, since 2 thess uses it twice and they change mid verse!
Infection_Ag11
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k2aggie07 said:

Be comforted then that the same phrase used to talk about "hell" and "heaven" is usually translated in a different way. "From the face of the Lord" is the same way the saints receive refreshing and those receive the penalty. Word for word the same in 2 Thes 1:9 and Acts 3:20. There is no separation from God; and even if there were such a separation would be, by definition, nonbeing.

And I think the modern / evangelical notions of heaven and hell are actually fairly unbiblical and borderline pagan concepts appealing to a kind of dualism. Strong contrast to the physical and restorative picture the scriptures present. Particularly St John in his Revelation. And - I think that's also an extremely misunderstood book, if only because people don't read it "in genre" as apocalypse and therefore highly symbolic writing. Which, taken together, lead to folks thinking much like you.


Most of the early church fathers held to some concept of eternal separation/punishment. Most of our current ideas about Hell as far as the fire and brimstone were shaped by Dante, but the idea of eternal punishment on some level is as old as the faith. And Augustine, who many argue is the greatest Christian thinker who ever lived, had probably the most punitive and painful idea of Hell of any major Christian thinker in history. And that was 1600 years ago.

Hell to him solely exists to satisfy the demands of justice, and he makes a very compelling case in City if God.
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Zobel
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Yeah, and St Augustine was more or less viewed with extreme skepticism by the East for that among other things.

I'm not saying that there isn't a kind of eternal consequence or that there's not a judgment. But I don't think anything like the legalistic and punitive system the vast majority of people hold to is close to scriptural. Nor the prevailing views of dualism / heaven ("going to" heaven or hell being the chief of the unscriptural concepts). And I have *never* seen a patristic text advocating for separation from God. Separation from God would be separation from the source of our existence. Annihilation would be the result, but not some kind of sustained nonbeing. Procession toward nonbeing, yes - that's St Maximos. But even then for him that is a kind of eternal nonending, as nothing can end except where it is teleologically destined. For humans that is with God.

Nor will you find the word punishment. Punitive justice is not redemptive or restorative. Yet this is what the scriptures promise. Correction, restoration, healing - not punishment meted out.

Contrast your view of divine justice with St Isaacs who says... " Justice does not belong to the Christian way of life, and there is no mention of it in Christ's teaching" and " Do not call God just, for His justice is not manifest in the things concerning you".

"How can you call God just when you come across the Scriptural passage on the wage given to the workers? "Friend, I do thee no wrong: I choose to give unto this last even as unto thee. Or is thine eye evil because I am good?" How can a man call God just when he comes across the passage on the prodigal son who wasted his wealth with riotous living, how for the compunction alone which he showed the father ran and fell upon his neck and gave him authority over his wealth? None other but His very Son said these things concerning Him, lest we doubt it, and thus bore witness concerning Him. Where, then, is God's justice?for while we are sinners Christ died for us! But if here He is merciful, we may believe that He will not change."

I suppose the only thing is that I'd like you to see that there is another way to read these scriptures, and that it is the more ancient way. And that it's not theologically compromising or problematic. And that when read in context it is much more in line with the scriptures, OT and New.
third deck
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Not to interrupt the flow of the debate here, but had an interesting vantage point to the Kobe Bryant tragedy yesterday. You see, I was sitting in church in Newbury Park, CA where we practically share a parking lot with the Mamba Academy next door - the very place where Kobe was heading. At near the end of the service, one of the pastors made an announcement about the tragedy, and a host of folks immediately rushed over to pray and to offer help in whatever way they could. My understanding is that they were able to meet and pray with the team Kobe was coaching.

Please pray for this tragedy, and that somehow the gospel of Jesus Christ would penetrate deeper into this community. Despite the unspeakable shock and sorrow surrounding the events of yesterday, I am hopeful and confident that God is at work to create something beautiful and something for His ultimate glory.

Regarding the debate above, it is hard to wrap our minds around the idea that correct belief vs. incorrect belief would separate our eternal destination. Yet, if we are to approach the God of the Bible, one thing seems clear - we must approach God on His own terms. And, in that way, our preconceptions of what is fair or what is loving or what is righteous or what is God-like are rather irrelevant. He, as God, makes the rules and we must approach the God who is rather than invent something that we think feels right. The latter is religion. The former is pure Christianity. So, does one need to believe that Jesus became human flesh, lived a perfect life, died a cruel death on a cross as a substitutionary death with real legal payment for sin, and rose victoriously from the grave to be saved? The teaching of the NT would resoundingly say "yes"!

dermdoc
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k2aggie07 said:

Yeah. Crazy right? Almost like modern people translating the scriptures into English are laboring under a great deal of theological presuppositions.

And it's not dramatic. Go read it.
https://biblehub.com/text/acts/3-20.htm

https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/1-9.htm

Why translate "apo" as from and then "away from"? Same exact phrase. Same word. Should be from both times. Or rather, all three, since 2 thess uses it twice and they change mid verse!
Yep. It is also curious how the same word Sheol in the OT is translated as
"Hell"(which is a word created long after the OT was written) half the time and grave the other half the time in the King James translation. And every time "hell" is used it always is used in a punitive nature, I.e. there is a bias.

Same word. Why the different translation of the exact same word? Were the translators divinely inspired also? Or just the authors of Scripture? I favor the latter. And why did the Jews of the OT have zero concept of a Dante or Augustine version of ECT hell? Why did Paul never preach "hell" or the "turn or burn" concept? Surely that should have been a central theme of his message, correct? Why did Jesus only preach and minster to the Jews except in a very few instances? Did He not care that all non Jews were going to an eternal torture chamber unless He reached them? What would that make His and God's character to be as far as our understanding?

One wonders if Gregory of Nyssa had become as historically important as Augustine. The Gospel would truly mean Good News. For all mankind. Which imho, it is.

Read the parable of the sheep and goats.There is no mention of a "sinners prayer"(and actually that can not be found in the Bible as far as I can tell). There is no mention of any belief, much less the "correct" one. The sheep are those who did good, and the goats were those that did evil. And that makes sense to me.

John 3:17
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world(not some of the world)through Him.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

In my simple mind, that means that even a poor orphan in India who has never "heard" the Gospel still knows right from wrong and can therefore can glorify God with their lives and not suffer condemnation. Is not that the only logical way that salvation could appear to people who have not heard the Gospel?

And lastly, please show me any Scripture that says that one's view of "hell" has any bearing on one's salvation or communion with the Lord. I can not find one yet many traditionalists believe that beliefs like mine send one to "hell".

The Gospel has been turned by some into a "get out of hell free card" rather than the beautiful relationship with God through Christ as a means of living the most abundant life possible.
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Zobel
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It's a tragedy. Thanks for sharing that. It's awesome he was doing good work like that, and I hope others can continue it.

Quote:

Yet, if we are to approach the God of the Bible, one thing seems clear - we must approach God on His own terms. And, in that way, our preconceptions of what is fair or what is loving or what is righteous or what is God-like are rather irrelevant. He, as God, makes the rules and we must approach the God who is rather than invent something that we think feels right. The latter is religion. The former is pure Christianity. So, does one need to believe that Jesus became human flesh, lived a perfect life, died a cruel death on a cross as a substitutionary death with real legal payment for sin, and rose victoriously from the grave to be saved? The teaching of the NT would resoundingly say "yes"!

we are incapable of approaching God, on his terms or any others. Which is why He humbled Himself to come to us. So we know what is fair, loving, righteous. Christ. We know what grace looks like. Christ. St Paul says we know the proof of our love for others because of the proof given by Christ: He was rich, and became poor for us.

Lots of rules and laws in your post. Real legal payment for sin? What law is God subject to that He has to follow it? To whom was this payment made? Do you see the layers and layers of presuppositions underpinning your soteriology?

There's lots of legal language in the New Testament scriptures. Most of it is about witnessing, testifying (ie the entire gospel of St John). Very little is about laws and judgment or some kind of punishment for an improper belief. I think that is a human invention, and is truly religion - makes us feel better about our own selves. We're right they're wrong, we're saved they're not, thank God I'm not like that publican over there, or like Judas...some people need there to be a hell with other people in it.
dermdoc
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k2aggie07 said:

It's a tragedy. Thanks for sharing that. It's awesome he was doing good work like that, and I hope others can continue it.

Quote:

Yet, if we are to approach the God of the Bible, one thing seems clear - we must approach God on His own terms. And, in that way, our preconceptions of what is fair or what is loving or what is righteous or what is God-like are rather irrelevant. He, as God, makes the rules and we must approach the God who is rather than invent something that we think feels right. The latter is religion. The former is pure Christianity. So, does one need to believe that Jesus became human flesh, lived a perfect life, died a cruel death on a cross as a substitutionary death with real legal payment for sin, and rose victoriously from the grave to be saved? The teaching of the NT would resoundingly say "yes"!

we are incapable of approaching God, on his terms or any others. Which is why He humbled Himself to come to us. So we know what is fair, loving, righteous. Christ. We know what grace looks like. Christ. St Paul says we know the proof of our love for others because of the proof given by Christ: He was rich, and became poor for us.

Lots of rules and laws in your post. Real legal payment for sin? What law is God subject to that He has to follow it? To whom was this payment made? Do you see the layers and layers of presuppositions underpinning your soteriology?

There's lots of legal language in the New Testament scriptures. Most of it is about witnessing, testifying (ie the entire gospel of St John). Very little is about laws and judgment or some kind of punishment for an improper belief. I think that is a human invention, and is truly religion - makes us feel better about our own selves. We're right they're wrong, we're saved they're not, thank God I'm not like that publican over there, or like Judas...some people need there to be a hell with other people in it.
Amen.

I believe God is good, just, and loves us.

Therefore it is inconceivable to me that with that character that an orphan in India who never heard the Gospel is going to be eternally punished. Through no fault of their own,

And k2 hits on a great point. From my reading the NT calls on us to be witnesses. Not converters. We can not "save" anyone. Only God can.

What is fascinating is that because of the Holy Spirit we know the "turn or burn" stuff is not in God's character. If not, why work at a job? Why have kids? Your entire existence should be spent trying to "save" people from a horrible fate. And 99.99% of Christians do not act this way even if they say they believe in an eternal torture chamber. Thank God for the Holy Spirit!
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Rusty Aha
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I agree with you. Polycarp (disciple of the Apostle John) then Clement, Justin Martyr, Mathetes, Irenaeus, Tertullian, and others profess the same doctrine warning of the lake of fire.
dermdoc
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With all due respect, Clement did not teach an eternal conscious torment hell. And Tertullian said he was going to enjoy watching people who disagreed with him suffering eternally. Does anyone actually agree with him there?

And Augustine believed that unbaptized babies went to "hell". Who believes that? How can you read the NT and come up with that?


Just for fun, ask your preacher or priest if they think unbaptized babies go to hell? Or that we are going to be sitting up in Heaven enjoying watching unbelieving loved ones suffer?
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Zobel
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He brought up St Augustine, not me.

Also I wouldn't mind seeing those citations. I don't recall anything in St Polycarp's writings about a lake of fire.
Rusty Aha
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k2aggie07 said:

He brought up St Augustine, not me.

Also I wouldn't mind seeing those citations. I don't recall anything in St Polycarp's writings about a lake of fire.


Sorry, misread. I'm not Catholic, but here is one site that has a pretty good compilation of early church writings:

http://newadvent.org/fathers/
(Chapter 2, Martyrdom of Polycarp).

FWIW, and as you probably already know it was written by his students.
Zobel
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Yes, seeing as it was about when he died.

But read carefully what I object to. The idea of eternal torment being a kind of punitive act by God, or a kind of eternal vengeance or retribution, or a kind of justice, or a kind of separation. The example you give from the Martyrdom, ("escape from the fire which is eternal and shall never be quenched...") talks about none of these things. At any rate picking a snippet from a random writing - not from a father - is hardly an avenue to arrive at a consistent teaching or understanding of a subject.


(As an aside - Scripturally speaking - what alone is eternal? And what is fire? Doesn't God make the sun shine on the evil and good alike? How can the saints receive love and grace and the evil receive the justice of ruin from the very same face of God? Does He change?)

If God were particularly interested in justice as we keep wanting Him to be (for example, as an antipole to mercy, or as a kind of scale-balancing reciprocity) we can hardly expect Him to act the way He does over and over and over. Jonah gets mad at God because he knew God wouldn't be just to the worst and most evil empire in the world. He was furious, he accuses God - "I knew this was going to happen! I knew you were going to forgive them because you do it every time, every single time! That's why I ran!" It seems to me Jonah knows something about God many of us have forgotten.

God's justice is perfectly merciful and His mercy is perfectly just. In this matter, because it is a stumbling block to so many, I think we should not ponder or meditate on vain and foolish things (cf Psalm 2:1) or on matters too lofty for us (Psalm 131:1). Do you have a vision from God of the consequence of unbelief or working evil? Then by all means, share it, and praise God for such a gift. But otherwise we should witness to what we know - we should tell others of how much God has done for us (cf Luke 8:39, Psalm 66:16).
dermdoc
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And I meant Clement of Alexandria. Sorry for any confusion.
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Macarthur
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third deck said:

Not to interrupt the flow of the debate here, but had an interesting vantage point to the Kobe Bryant tragedy yesterday. You see, I was sitting in church in Newbury Park, CA where we practically share a parking lot with the Mamba Academy next door - the very place where Kobe was heading. At near the end of the service, one of the pastors made an announcement about the tragedy, and a host of folks immediately rushed over to pray and to offer help in whatever way they could. My understanding is that they were able to meet and pray with the team Kobe was coaching.

Please pray for this tragedy, and that somehow the gospel of Jesus Christ would penetrate deeper into this community. Despite the unspeakable shock and sorrow surrounding the events of yesterday, I am hopeful and confident that God is at work to create something beautiful and something for His ultimate glory.

Regarding the debate above, it is hard to wrap our minds around the idea that correct belief vs. incorrect belief would separate our eternal destination. Yet, if we are to approach the God of the Bible, one thing seems clear - we must approach God on His own terms. And, in that way, our preconceptions of what is fair or what is loving or what is righteous or what is God-like are rather irrelevant. He, as God, makes the rules and we must approach the God who is rather than invent something that we think feels right. The latter is religion. The former is pure Christianity. So, does one need to believe that Jesus became human flesh, lived a perfect life, died a cruel death on a cross as a substitutionary death with real legal payment for sin, and rose victoriously from the grave to be saved? The teaching of the NT would resoundingly say "yes"!



Not trying to pick a fight, but this is the type of thing that drives many non-believers crazy.

What kind of logic takes two people dying tragically and the devastation that causes that family and think that God is doing something 'beautiful for his glory'? That actually seems kind of insane. If a human did this, we would think he's mentally ill.
dermdoc
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The way I look at it, for whatever reason evil exists and death is always going to happen. But I believe God can make good out of tragedy if one has faith and perseveres.

I know that is what has happened with my family tragedies.

Romans 8:28
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to His purpose.

Without that, there is no hope.
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Macarthur
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dermdoc said:

The way I look at it, for whatever reason evil exists and death is always going to happen. But I believe God can make good out of tragedy if one has faith and perseveres.

I know that is what has happened with my family tragedies.

Romans 8:28
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to His purpose.

Without that, there is no hope.

I guess I see your point if one person reads that Kobe went to church the day he died and that motivates someone to go to church and ultimately turns to God...okay, good for that person.

But what 'beautiful' thing can come about for Kobe's family?
dermdoc
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I said the same thing after my dad died suddenly in 1989. I was in Houston, living the young doc dream and moved back to Beaumont to open up a practice so I could keep an eye on my mom. She worked at my office for 22 years and when she got dementia, I was there to take care of her. Also was able to take care of her parents in Beaumont until their death. Then when my sister got sarcoma and died two years ago, I was there to take care of her and then moved in with her husband after she died to keep him company. I firmly believe I was supposed to be there.
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Macarthur
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You are a great son and family member, but with all respect, that's not the same thing as what I'm saying here.
dermdoc
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Infection_Ag11 said:

k2aggie07 said:

Where does it say that? Eternal hell?


Matthew and Revelations specifically present pretty impassable barriers to those who argue there isn't some form of eternal punishment/separation for those who die without Jesus.

Revelations in particular actually presents a pretty good case for those who believe in eternal conscious torment, but I think the totality of the Bible leads me to believe the tormented are simply without God and fully aware of it. Still horrifying, especially as a parent, but not eternal torture.

I've come to view all arguments against any type of eternal punishment as a coping mechanism for those who simply can't live with the ultimate ramifications of their beliefs, and I totally get it. I really do. It's a system I don't understand. I wish I could believe in universalism or the termination of consciousness for nonbelievers, but there's just no support for that.


And it may well be a coping mechanism for me. I would have been very hesitant to have kids if I thought they had a good chance of suffering eternally.

I do not see how folks can so readily accept traditional eternal torment hell and go about their daily lives. Unless I guess you are a hyper Calvinist and believe that it is all pre ordained. And of course then, if you have kids, they risk the problem of being the damned.

And every Sunday, hellfire and brimstone is preached and then everybody goes out to eat lunch(including the pastor). It does not make sense. How can you so completely compartmentalize that horror?

And I disagree on the lack of Scripture supporting universal reconciliation. I listed about twenty Scriptures in a thread the other day. Now granted, most churches do not preach those as often. How often do you hear John 3:16 references and not John 3:17?
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dermdoc
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Macarthur said:

You are a great son and family member, but with all respect, that's not the same thing as what I'm saying here.
Appreciate that but only God is good.
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dermdoc
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And to be honest, I think you can find Scriptural interpretation that supports ECT, annilationism, or universal reconciliation.

And I do not care if someone believes in ECT. The problem is that if I tell them I do not they basically assume I am going to hell. And that is not Scriptural.
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MidTnAg
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dermdoc said:

Macarthur said:

Appreciate that but only God is good.

What do you mean that only God is good. I have a son who is very good in so many ways. Are you saying that is he not good?
diehard03
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Quote:

I have a son who is very good in so many ways. Are you saying that is he not good?

In the theological constructs we are discussing here? No, he's not good.
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