Pretty much. I take it to mean that one can believe in Christ, i.e. know He is the Son of God, and yet reject Him. That is what Satan and the demons do.

My OSB says "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

So, there's no word obey in at least one translation. The base for this translation is NKJV.

Looking at the Greek concordance the word appears to be apeiqew, which means to refuse persuasion, not believe, not obey or comply.

So, to me that means belief and compliance are both required, not only one.

I leave it to the scholars to correct me.

I wouldn't get too dug in there. They are both from the same root word. Peitho means persuade where the word pistis or faith comes from. The one believing is pisteuo, the one not believing is apitheo... this is disobey, to be not persuaded. Apeithes is disobedience, but you can see that it's closely related to a kind of assent to be led or persuaded. But again this is probably more of how you convey the idea of both disobedience and belief in Greek language than any real theological truth. The important thing I think is that the two concepts are opposites, belief / obedience because persuaded and unbelief / disobedience because not persuaded.

Roth's translation to English from the Aramaic reads:

"He who believes in the Son has life that is that is eternal, and he who does not obey the Son will not see life, rather the wrath of Elohim will rise up against him."

I'm not an Aramaic reader, but I can see from the Aramaic side, that these are two distinct words. So, at least the early Aramaic speaking believers, took it that way.

However, there shouldn't be a problem with this rendering, because it's similar to James 2:18:

"But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

Or Yeshua Himself in Matthew 7:21:

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."

And others. But if you have a doctrine of "easy believe-ism" I suppose these and many others would be hard to accept.

Why would you translate it from Greek to Aramaic to English? The Gospel of St John wasn't written originally in Aramaic.

Everyone knows that only the KJV is the correct letter version of St. Johns letter.

Some believe it was originally written in Aramaic. But let's not get in a diction measuring contest about that. Even if the Greek was translated into Aramaic, that was done very close to the time of the originals and shows how they understood what it meant in Greek.

Reading James chapter 2 in conjunction with John 3:36 seems appropriate.

k2aggie07 said:

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Fair enough about the translation as reference. Much the way the Septuagint is a valuable tool in understanding the Old Testament, wouldn't you say?

I think that probably the best takeaway from this is not really about the scriptures themselves or even how to best understand this particular verse, but that in Greek there is a fundamental relationship between the concepts of belief, obedience, and faith.

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Only as long as that obedience is NOT to God's Laws.

John 3: 36 : "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him."

A form of the word obey, obedience, obeyed, etc is only used this one time in the entire book of John. A form of 'believed" is used 85 times in this gospel and life or eternal life 39 times.

What is the purpose of John's gospel?

Stated purpose of the book:
John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

notice the similar verse in John 3
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I believe it's safe to say that when John uses the word obey in this context, he's referring to the obedience of faith or believing. Notice he's not listing all of Christ commands to obey which would of utmost importance if full obedience is required. (If full obedience to Christ is required for eternal life we all fail at Matt. 5:48).

My conclusion is that John is referring to the obedience of faith by believing. Rom. 1:5

The disobedience of John 3:36 is a disobedience that is rooted in disbelief or being unpersuaded. The cause of this disobedience is disbelief. That's why they're presented as a pair of concepts in opposition, linked by a "however" or "on the other hand" or "whereas" etc. I think it is a mistake to parse the second word without looking at the first.

Romans 1:5, that's a totally different word than is used in John 3:36 - it means submission, to be under instruction. The word has the idea of "under" and "hearing" and has no fundamental or inherent link to belief.

When it says "obedience of faith" the words obedience and faith have a declension and the word "of" is not there. Obedience is accusative, faith is genitive. So this is the faith's obedience, and the object of the obedience is faith. Which is why most often its translated the obedience that comes from faith, or obedience to the faith. The only way "of" works here is the of which means "out of" or "belonging to" as in, "I am of Texas."

Stating the idea that there is some kind of "obedience of faith" which means a type of obedience that is characterized by the act of believing actually reverses the grammatical emphasis, making obedience the object that by faith belongs to or characterizes instead of vice versa.

At any rate, why not simply see that it says disobedience, and that this kind of disobedience and faith are interlinked conceptually? It does no harm to any theology, and this is a consistent teaching in the NT.

DirtDiver said:

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John 3: 36 : "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him."

A form of the word obey, obedience, obeyed, etc is only used this one time in the entire book of John. A form of 'believed" is used 85 times in this gospel and life or eternal life 39 times.

What is the purpose of John's gospel?

Stated purpose of the book:
John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

notice the similar verse in John 3
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I believe it's safe to say that when John uses the word obey in this context, he's referring to the obedience of faith or believing. Notice he's not listing all of Christ commands to obey which would of utmost importance if full obedience is required. (If full obedience to Christ is required for eternal life we all fail at Matt. 5:48).

My conclusion is that John is referring to the obedience of faith by believing. Rom. 1:5

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Very well put. We have to realize this about obeying the commandments. Its impossible.

In Matthew 16-26, a man approaches Jesus and ask "Good master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life" Jesus, sensing that this man thought he could earn his way to Heaven, replied (paraphrasing) "Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, love thy neighbor as yourself"

The man replied that he had done all these things his entire life but still he felt something was missing. Jesus replied (KJV) " If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and shout shall have treasure in Heaven: and come follow me"

The man was not willing to give up everything he had. Thus, he failed the test of being saved by works. Like all of us, he was not perfect. Jesus then says a pretty famous verse: "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

The disciples reply to this is: Who could possibly be saved, if this is what it takes to be saved?

Jesus replies "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

It is impossible for man to save himself through works. Only by God's grace through faith is man saved.

And? Is this an argument for inaction or one against good works? Does this mean a person can somehow be a believer AND disobedient? I would suggest that this verse argues strongly against such an idea, along with many others (those in James as noted, but also St. John's letters and many of the writings of St Paul). Guard against this kind of spiritual minimalism. Belief and faith in Christ motivate us to obedience - they don't excuse us from it or stand in place of it.

You are correct. Belief and faith in Christ should motivate us to obedience. Absolutely. But obedience is not the reason we are saved. I deserve hell. There is no amount of good works I could do to not deserve hell....but I'm not going there because Jesus died for me. The only part I play in my going to Heaven is choosing to believe that Jesus is the son of God and died for my sins. So to answer your question, yes believers can be disobedient....in fact every believer is disobedient. Nobody perfectly followed the commandments except Jesus.

Thaddeus73 said:

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good stuff here..After further review, there is also...

John 14:15: "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

Which seems to imply that to "believe in" Jesus means to keep his commandments (or obey him)...

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How else would you keep his commandments?

Is salvation about not going to hell?

Romans 2: 6-8 raised a similar discussion in small group Sunday night.

6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done."[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

At the end of the day, those who accept the truth of the Gospel are saved by Grace and thus reflected in real changed of the heart. Those who do not believe will go their own way and will be judged in the end.

Salvation means to go to Heaven to be with the Lord forever so in a way, yes.

Where does the Bible say "go to heaven"?

The evil and the good are both judged. St Paul says clearly there is judgment for Christians in 1Cor3. The parable of the talents (and many others) make it clear our actions matter.

k2aggie07 said:

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The evil and the good are both judged. St Paul says clearly there is judgment for Christians in 1Cor3. The parable of the talents (and many others) make it clear our actions matter.

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So how good do I need to be?

k2aggie07 said:

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Where does the Bible say "go to heaven"?

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43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

May I ask where you received this theology so I can dive a little deeper?

barnyard1996 said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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The evil and the good are both judged. St Paul says clearly there is judgment for Christians in 1Cor3. The parable of the talents (and many others) make it clear our actions matter.

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So how good do I need to be?

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You're not getting it. The answer, of course, is perfect. That is the command Christ gives us in Matthew 5:48. You think he was just goofing around?

When we realize we can't -apart from God- that's when the work starts. As Christ said to "who then can be saved?" No one! But with God people can be saved. Which means with God people can be holy, and ultimately made perfect. Not that we have been made perfect, as St. Paul says, but we toil to that end.

Again, as St Paul says, we work out our salvation with fear and trembling. we are saved, being saved, and will be saved - he uses all three tenses in his epistles. And our works are how we know we are saved, how we know we have love, that's what St Paul and St John and St James write.

Loved God and Love others as yourself are together the greatest commandment, teaches Christ. You cannot love God without loving others as yourself, and you cannot love others as yourself without it overflowing as grace upon grace in your life - as good works.

Anyone separating salvation from works is separating love of God from love of others. It can't be done.

Revelation 21
Isaiah 65:17
John 14:3
1 Cor 15:23
1 Cor 15:28
Colossians 1:18
Romans 8:29
Acts 26:23
Revelation 1:5

Bodily resurrection is the quintessential Christian teaching. Christ is the firstborn from the dead, the firstfruit, the first of many brothers. We're not losing earth to evil, evil doesn't win. Creation is God's, He doesn't abandon it. He fixes it, through entering it and redeeming it - and us.

So a couple works a day?

Everything and nothing. Belief is the beginning, not the end. We commit our whole lives to Christ, our entire life becomes a sacrifice. We are living sacrifices. We die, the old man dies, and to live is Christ. Our entire identity and life is clothed in Christ, the old is gone, and behold! New creation!

If you don't see this new creation, new life, new growth in your life, shouldn't you wonder? The scriptures seem clear.

We are both God's field and His coworkers. Humans are supposed to work, it's the command given even in the garden. Work is what we were made to do, and further, Christ says work is what we WILL do if we believe - greater even than His works. No? How do you read it?

TXaggiesTX said:

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You are correct. Belief and faith in Christ should motivate us to obedience. Absolutely. But obedience is not the reason we are saved. I deserve hell. There is no amount of good works I could do to not deserve hell....but I'm not going there because Jesus died for me. The only part I play in my going to Heaven is choosing to believe that Jesus is the son of God and died for my sins. So to answer your question, yes believers can be disobedient....in fact every believer is disobedient. Nobody perfectly followed the commandments except Jesus.

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No one deserves hell. There has never been a person ever who deserves eternal suffering. Even if Hitler or Stalin or Genghis Khan suffered an entire lifetime for each and every one of their victims, you're still only talking millions of years. I say "only", because that's a drop in the bucket of eternity. Eternal suffering is not justice for you, me or anyone else and no one "deserves" it.

Once you realize you don't deserve hell, maybe you'll realize that other people don't either. Then it's easier to see that even horrible people have human dignity and value. It makes the whole love and compassion part easier

Colossians 1: 9 And so, from the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 to lead a life worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.

Colossians 1: 24: Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church....