MillennialAg said:

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Holy idolatry, Batman!

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I believe his comment is regarding the statement by Montfort. Montforts promise is listed here as a quote that sounds an awful lot like the promise Jesus made in John 4:25, hence the idolatry claim.

John 5:24 English Standard Version (ESV)

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Gator03 said:

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What's idolatrous about it? I'm not Catholic and i don't pray the rosary but isn't it just prayers based on scripture or confessions (ie expressing one's faith and repentance through prayer)?

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I'm no Bible scholar nor a Catholic but the part that seems idolatrous to me is the Hail Marys. Mary isn't God, we shouldn't pray to her.

Thaddeus73 said:

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they do know what is going on down here (Revelation 6:10),

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Not sure I see that in that verse. They are pleading for their deaths to be avenged for. That doesnt prove they have knowledge of all that is going on here on earth.

The dead Samuel knew what was going on down here when he talked to Saul, 1 Samuel 28...

And

Luke 15:7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

How can the saints up there be joyous in heaven over a repentant sinner if they don't know that he has repented?

Thaddeus73 said:

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The dead Samuel knew what was going on down here when he talked to Saul, 1 Samuel 28...

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We've talked about that one before. Samuel got mad at Saul because he did that and then Saul died. Not a good example.

Thaddeus73 said:

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And

Luke 15:7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

How can the saints up there be joyous in heaven over a repentant sinner if they don't know that he has repented?

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God could tell them, just like the people in each of the parables in that chapter tells their neighbors to come and rejoice with them.

Catholics believe that people in heaven are one spirit with Christ, so that God doesn't have to tell them. They already know, because they are partakers in the divine nature...1 Corinthians 6:17 and 2 Peter 1:4...

Still doesnt address it.

When we get to heaven, are we going to be watching what's going on here? Will we have complete knowledge? Or being outside of time and in the presence of God, will we be so completely overwhelmed that's what's going on here is going to be so insignificant compared to being in the presence of God? I sure hope heaven is so amazing I'm not interested in peeking at people randomly at earth.

Pro Sandy said:

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Still doesnt address it.

When we get to heaven, are we going to be watching what's going on here? Will we have complete knowledge? Or being outside of time and in the presence of God, will we be so completely overwhelmed that's what's going on here is going to be so insignificant compared to being in the presence of God? I sure hope heaven is so amazing I'm not interested in peeking at people randomly at earth.

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Why not all of the above or yes, and, or both or all.

SoulSlaveAG2005 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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Still doesnt address it.

When we get to heaven, are we going to be watching what's going on here? Will we have complete knowledge? Or being outside of time and in the presence of God, will we be so completely overwhelmed that's what's going on here is going to be so insignificant compared to being in the presence of God? I sure hope heaven is so amazing I'm not interested in peeking at people randomly at earth.

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Why not all of the above or yes, and, or both or all.

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I know when I call you and ask you to pray for me, you will. I know when I pray to God, he hears me. I dont have the same assurance that those who have gone before me can, nor do we have clear examples from Scripture of praying to the saints in glory to pray for us. Given that, I would rather stay with the 2 things I know are certain and not the one I have no certainty about.

Since we will be partakers in the divine nature, according to sacred scripture, we will know it all...

There is an example of the "dead" (Catholics don't believe people in heaven are dead, but are alive) Jeremiah praying for Israel in the Catholic Bible, but not in the Protestant Bible...

Pro Sandy said:

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SoulSlaveAG2005 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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Still doesnt address it.

When we get to heaven, are we going to be watching what's going on here? Will we have complete knowledge? Or being outside of time and in the presence of God, will we be so completely overwhelmed that's what's going on here is going to be so insignificant compared to being in the presence of God? I sure hope heaven is so amazing I'm not interested in peeking at people randomly at earth.

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Why not all of the above or yes, and, or both or all.

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I know when I call you and ask you to pray for me, you will. I know when I pray to God, he hears me. I dont have the same assurance that those who have gone before me can, nor do we have clear examples from Scripture of praying to the saints in glory to pray for us. Given that, I would rather stay with the 2 things I know are certain and not the one I have no certainty about.

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What assurance do you have that by calling me and asking me to pray for you that God will hear it and it be effective?

Why does it hve to be specifically line itemed in scripture for you to believe in it?

Thaddeus73 said:

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"If you say the Rosary faithfully until death, I do assure you that, in spite of the gravity of your sins "you shall receive a never fading crown of glory." Even if you are on the brink of damnation, even if you have one foot in Hell, even if you have sold your soul to the devil as sorcerers do who practice black magic, and even if you are a heretic as obstinate as a devil, sooner or later you will be converted and will amend your life and save your soul, ifand mark well what I sayif you say the Holy Rosary devoutly every day until death for the purpose of knowing the truth and obtaining contrition and pardon for your sins."

Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort

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Unjustifiable superstition. No less idiotic than Mormon underwear

How is fulfilling biblical prophecy unjustifiable. From Luke 1:48 "Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed." Why would anyone think they would gain favor with Jesus by insulting his mother, or what she has asked of us. The Rosary is a gift from heaven to help us sinners obtain the beatific vision of the presence of God.

The Blessed Virgin Mary promised to Saint Dominic and to all who follow that "Whatever you ask in the Rosary will be granted." She left for all Christians Fifteen Promises to those who recite the Holy Rosary.
Imparted to Saint Dominic and Blessed Alan

[ol]

Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive signal graces.

I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the Rosary.

The Rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies.

The Rosary will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire for eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.

The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.

Whoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its sacred mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.

Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the sacraments of the Church.

Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plenititude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the saints in paradise.

I shall deliver from Purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary.

The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven.

You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the Rosary.

All those who propagate the Holy Rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities.

I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the Rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death.

All who recite the Rosary are my sons and daughters, and brothers and sisters of my only Son Jesus Christ.

Devotion of my Rosary is a great sign of predestination.

[/ol]

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Unjustifiable superstition. No less idiotic than Mormon underwear

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Certainly worked for me..Certainly worked at Hiroshima and Nagasaki...Certainly worked in Poland (RIP USSR).....

How Jim Caviezel's life was forever changed by Father Peyton and the Rosary

EVERYONE who starts meditating on the 20 biblical mysteries through the rosary will have their lives changed for the better...

SoulSlaveAG2005 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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SoulSlaveAG2005 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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Still doesnt address it.

When we get to heaven, are we going to be watching what's going on here? Will we have complete knowledge? Or being outside of time and in the presence of God, will we be so completely overwhelmed that's what's going on here is going to be so insignificant compared to being in the presence of God? I sure hope heaven is so amazing I'm not interested in peeking at people randomly at earth.

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Why not all of the above or yes, and, or both or all.

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I know when I call you and ask you to pray for me, you will. I know when I pray to God, he hears me. I dont have the same assurance that those who have gone before me can, nor do we have clear examples from Scripture of praying to the saints in glory to pray for us. Given that, I would rather stay with the 2 things I know are certain and not the one I have no certainty about.

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What assurance do you have that by calling me and asking me to pray for you that God will hear it and it be effective?

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The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. "James 5:16

Quote:

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Why does it hve to be specifically line itemed in scripture for you to believe in it?

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The scripture gives me everything I need to know for salvation, so not everything has to be in it to believe it outside of salvation. But I just dont think that heaven and the saints and our understanding of time means that they can hear my thoughts.

Pro Sandy said:

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SoulSlaveAG2005 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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SoulSlaveAG2005 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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Still doesnt address it.

When we get to heaven, are we going to be watching what's going on here? Will we have complete knowledge? Or being outside of time and in the presence of God, will we be so completely overwhelmed that's what's going on here is going to be so insignificant compared to being in the presence of God? I sure hope heaven is so amazing I'm not interested in peeking at people randomly at earth.

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Why not all of the above or yes, and, or both or all.

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I know when I call you and ask you to pray for me, you will. I know when I pray to God, he hears me. I dont have the same assurance that those who have gone before me can, nor do we have clear examples from Scripture of praying to the saints in glory to pray for us. Given that, I would rather stay with the 2 things I know are certain and not the one I have no certainty about.

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What assurance do you have that by calling me and asking me to pray for you that God will hear it and it be effective?

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The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. "James 5:16

Quote:

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Why does it hve to be specifically line itemed in scripture for you to believe in it?

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The scripture gives me everything I need to know for salvation, so not everything has to be in it to believe it outside of salvation. But I just dont think that heaven and the saints and our understanding of time means that they can hear my thoughts.

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Who is more righteous? Those in the church militant? Or those on the church triumphant that are now part of the beatific vision?

Where in scripture does it say that scripture contains all you need for salvation?

I dont understand your first question. I assume you are calling us protestants militants. Your righteousness is not of your church association but of Christ's righteousness imputed into us.

Thaddeus73 said:

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EVERYONE who starts meditating will have their lives changed for the better...

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There...all fixed

Quote:

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Quote:

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EVERYONE who starts meditating will have their lives changed for the better...

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There...all fixed

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Agreed - But the Rosary merely focuses your meditation on 20 events of the New testament...And adding the first words of Salvation from Gabriel in the NT - "Hail Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee" (Hail is a royal greeting - As in Hail Caesar or Hail King of the Jews) to your meditation time make it even more powerful. It certainly freed me from a lot of sinful habits...Still a work in Progress, but my confessions are certainly a lot shorter and less painful now than they were 20 years ago when I started meditating using the Rosary.

Disagree.

If our righteousness is Christ's righteousness imputed, not my own, then my physical state being on earth or in heaven doesn't change my righteousness. I remain righteous only because Christ's finished work was credited to me. If it is left to me to be righteous enough to enter into heaven, even if Christ gives me a head start, my one aw **** that I've pry already committed today will ruin my thousand attaboys that I'm striving after.

In heaven we will be glorified and no longer deal with sin, but the righteousness we will have in heaven is still only ours because Christ's work was credited to us.

My question to Thad as always been, how do I know the saints in heaven can hear me? I certainly believe that Christ is Lord of the living, not the dead, and that we pass into glory, I just don't understand what that means given we today are still living in the construct of time and space and unglorified bodies and in heaven we are outside of space and time. I know that God knows my every thought and deed and that he lovingly listens to the pleads of you and me, his children. I know you can hear me if I was to call and ask for prayer and I know God hears both of us. I know the Saints are alive and praying and God hears them. I just don't know if they can hear my thoughts or words anymore than we can for our fellow Christians around the world. We certainly pray for them and have some general understandings of their needs and cares, but cannot hear their thoughts and words. Thad has used the story of Saul going to the witch to conjure up Samuel, but I don't find it a good example for us to follow as Saul had already banned such practices as trying to conjure up spirits, Samuel is pissed at Saul for doing so, and Saul is a pretty shady character whose example may not be the best to follow.