He tore the fabric of existence and Death was brought into the world.

In Orthodoxy, sin is simply "missing the mark". Like on a target, becoming a little Christ (Christian) is the bullseye of our target and our decisions miss that standard. Sin.

Sin then was the choice to go against his nature and bite the apple. Available to him through free will! Although against his nature.

It wrenched death, both physical and spiritual death, into being.

This means we are not born sinful, we are born physically fallen/corrupt. Physical and spiritual death are a possibility.

Was Adam created immortal?

Agree.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death...

Rom. 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

This is the verse that came to mind when reading the title of the thread.

I like a lot more what Paul says after that about how Jesus erased that. And to put it in the context of Advent, that is why the Incarnation is so important. The older I get, the more important Advent and the Incarnation become.

Seems if that's the case you got some fossils to explain...

Quote:

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This means we are not born sinful, we are born physically fallen/corrupt. Physical and spiritual death are a possibility.

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Not sure I am understanding this. If we are born fallen/corrupt then how would physical death only be a possibility? Are you saying it is possible to live without sinning?

did the living cells in the food that adam and eve ate while in the garden keep living? how was it digested?

schmendeler said:

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did the living cells in the food that adam and eve ate while in the garden keep living? how was it digested?

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I have been told that sin can cause a world full of ****

Aggrad08 said:

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schmendeler said:

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did the living cells in the food that adam and eve ate while in the garden keep living? how was it digested?

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I have been told that sin can cause a world full of ****

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that's not the only thing that is FoS!

Adam had one commandment and failed. From missing this mark he sinned. This action brought sin into the world, the result of sin was a spiritual death. I feel like this is a set up to argue orginial sin all day.

Seems to me that initially Adam and Eve were created to be eternal, but only Adam and Eve. After all, they were specifically created in the image of God and one of God's attributes is being eternal. That's not true for the rest of creation. So the trees and birds and fish and animals were mortal and died. Sin corrupted Adam and Eve and made them susceptible to death as well.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Seems to me that initially Adam and Eve were created to be eternal, but only Adam and Eve. After all, they were specifically created in the image of God and one of God's attributes is being eternal. That's not true for the rest of creation. So the trees and birds and fish and animals were mortal and died. Sin corrupted Adam and Eve and made them susceptible to death as well.

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That is at least consistent with the text. Most people ignore the fact that the serpent was present, on earth, before the Fall. Therefore, there was most definitely sin on earth. As to its effects, the text isn't clear, but death would seem to be a natural consequence of the devil directing traffic.

Christian theology, from the beginning as noted in reference to Romans above, links the redemptive power of Jesus with the original sin in the creation narrative. How does the understanding of the early chapters of Genesis as myth or allegory change the theological role of Jesus as redeemer or conqueror of sin and death?

Christian theology isn't predicated on original sin. You could say that the need is based on the condition of man as mortal and subject to death. But to be honest, even the covenants of the Old Testament are based on God choosing a people from the world for Himself, and on their relationship with God. That relationship with humanity culminates in God Himself coming to die, and by His death He destroys death.

The theology of who God is and how He interacts with mankind works just as well if you cut the creation narrative out of it.

1. As pointed out above, the serpent seems to pre-exists Adam and Eve. Was creation (i.e., the Universe) corrupted by the angelic rebellion? Similarly, were Adam and Eve created into a world that was already corrupted by sin from the angelic rebellion?

2. Am I correct in understanding that Adam and Eve were created as immortal beings but not eternal beings?

Thanks. I'll hang up and listen.

peachbasket said:

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As a life long conservative Christian who can no longer ignore a more scientific explanation for the origin of man, I struggle with the significance of a literal interpretation of Genesis in explaining the devine nature of Jesus. I would appreciate thoughts of others who have experienced a similar crossroads.

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I'm with you PB, lifelong Christian but as I apply reason to the supernatural aspects of the Bible my doubt increases.

Try as I might to rely simply on faith, literal Genesis creation, talking serpents, Noah's worldwide flood, and several other supernatural tales; I can no longer believe the narrative.

How much can you "not believe" and still be a believer?

Think about it, why would God kick Adam and Eve out of the garden and set a Cherub at the gate with a flaming sword to keep them out? Because he was angry and could have no relationship with sinners? He didn't want Adam and Eve living to eternity because of punishment?

The tree of life is in the garden. If they ate the tree while corrupted by bodily and spiritual death, they would have remained in that state of death for eternity. A body continually decaying without death. He kicked them out to protect them, because He loves them and wanted redemption for them. He wanted to trample down death through his Son's sacrifice,

stbabs said:

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peachbasket said:

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As a life long conservative Christian who can no longer ignore a more scientific explanation for the origin of man, I struggle with the significance of a literal interpretation of Genesis in explaining the devine nature of Jesus. I would appreciate thoughts of others who have experienced a similar crossroads.

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I'm with you PB, lifelong Christian but as I apply reason to the supernatural aspects of the Bible my doubt increases.

Try as I might to rely simply on faith, literal Genesis creation, talking serpents, Noah's worldwide flood, and several other supernatural tales; I can no longer believe the narrative.

How much can you "not believe" and still be a believer?

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Exploring My Strange Bible is a great podcast by Tim Mackie, a teaching pastor whose focused on ancient near eastern cultures in seminary and wrote his dissertation on Ezekiel's transcription over the years. Guy is incredibly knowledgeable and always does great deep dives into context of the old testament.

He did one on Science and Faith that addresses a lot of the concerns both of you guys are mentioning.

Exploring My Strange Bible
Science and Faith: August 16th, 2017

https://podcasts.google.com/?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9yc3Muc2ltcGxlY2FzdC5jb20vcG9kY2FzdHMvMzM0MS9yc3M%3D&episode=YjJiZmZmOGMtNTMwMy00Y2UwLWI2N2MtZGVhMjNmNWM4NmI0

I would recommend immediately listening to his next three episodes that do a crash course on the old testament.

But long story short, there is nothing about Genesis 1 & 2 that points to it being held up as a literal or scientific document, or that religion and science are in contention with one another. Even the very first words of Genesis, 'In the beginning' use an ancient Hebrew word for 'a long long time ago' instead of the word for 'time zero.' (Which was known and used).

The incredible beauty of Genesis is partially lost due to the lack of contrasting context of the other origin stories also floating around by other religions at that time. We take for granted that God shares his rule with his creation out of love, he wants us to flourish and share in dominion over everything he's created. He spoke the world into existence. Contrast that to other prevailing origin stories where the god(s) are at war and through death in fighting out comes the universe as a dragon is torn in two.

I would caution you to not get hung up on things like, how are there 'days' before God makes night and day - hur de hurr hur.

God creates a world to share, Man was made perfect on Earth and walked with God in Eden. Given free choice, Adam and Eve chose to sin and introduced death into this world. God tells the serpent his/ours/and God's own fate, 'From man will come come a King. You will strike his heel but he will crush your head.' Jesus fulfills all the Old Testament prophecies and through his life, death, and resurrection he defeats death. One day, God will return to Earth and will make everything new again, and heal the wounds that sin and death have caused. Heaven is not this far place off in the stars where everyone has mansions and fast cars and everything you didn't get in this life. It is, at its core, redeeming what went wrong on page one.

Youtube the Bible Project as well if you want to watch some awesome videos about everything bible context related.

peachbasket said:

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As a life long conservative Christian who can no longer ignore a more scientific explanation for the origin of man, I struggle with the significance of a literal interpretation of Genesis in explaining the devine nature of Jesus. I would appreciate thoughts of others who have experienced a similar crossroads.

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Peachbasket, just wanted you also get a blue light up as well for my reply above.

one MEEN Ag said:

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stbabs said:

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peachbasket said:

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As a life long conservative Christian who can no longer ignore a more scientific explanation for the origin of man, I struggle with the significance of a literal interpretation of Genesis in explaining the devine nature of Jesus. I would appreciate thoughts of others who have experienced a similar crossroads.

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I'm with you PB, lifelong Christian but as I apply reason to the supernatural aspects of the Bible my doubt increases.

Try as I might to rely simply on faith, literal Genesis creation, talking serpents, Noah's worldwide flood, and several other supernatural tales; I can no longer believe the narrative.

How much can you "not believe" and still be a believer?

---

Exploring My Strange Bible is a great podcast by Tim Mackie, a teaching pastor whose focused on ancient near eastern cultures in seminary and wrote his dissertation on Ezekiel's transcription over the years. Guy is incredibly knowledgeable and always does great deep dives into context of the old testament.

He did one on Science and Faith that addresses a lot of the concerns both of you guys are mentioning.

Exploring My Strange Bible
Science and Faith: August 16th, 2017

https://podcasts.google.com/?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9yc3Muc2ltcGxlY2FzdC5jb20vcG9kY2FzdHMvMzM0MS9yc3M%3D&episode=YjJiZmZmOGMtNTMwMy00Y2UwLWI2N2MtZGVhMjNmNWM4NmI0

I would recommend immediately listening to his next three episodes that do a crash course on the old testament.

But long story short, there is nothing about Genesis 1 & 2 that points to it being held up as a literal or scientific document, or that religion and science are in contention with one another. Even the very first words of Genesis, 'In the beginning' use an ancient Hebrew word for 'a long long time ago' instead of the word for 'time zero.' (Which was known and used).

The incredible beauty of Genesis is partially lost due to the lack of contrasting context of the other origin stories also floating around by other religions at that time. We take for granted that God shares his rule with his creation out of love, he wants us to flourish and share in dominion over everything he's created. He spoke the world into existence. Contrast that to other prevailing origin stories where the god(s) are at war and through death in fighting out comes the universe as a dragon is torn in two.

I would caution you to not get hung up on things like, how are there 'days' before God makes night and day - hur de hurr hur.

God creates a world to share, Man was made perfect on Earth and walked with God in Eden. Given free choice, Adam and Eve chose to sin and introduced death into this world. God tells the serpent his/ours/and God's own fate, 'From man will come come a King. You will strike his heel but he will crush your head.' Jesus fulfills all the Old Testament prophecies and through his life, death, and resurrection he defeats death. One day, God will return to Earth and will make everything new again, and heal the wounds that sin and death have caused. Heaven is not this far place off in the stars where everyone has mansions and fast cars and everything you didn't get in this life. It is, at its core, redeeming what went wrong on page one.

Youtube the Bible Project as well if you want to watch some awesome videos about everything bible context related.

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Sound a lot like JPII's Fidei et Ratio. I would also highly recommend taking a look at Schroeder's The Science of God. He is an MIT astrophysicist and a Hebrew Bible scholar.

Thanks for sharing this podcast. I really am enjoying it.

This video does a great job using dna to prove Adam and Eve.

it's going to get good now.

Bio major here and have worked in the healthcare industry for 10+ years. So while my scientific background is not as technical as yours I do have a substantial understanding of biology, anatomy, and a healthy respect for science and here is how i handle it:

1) I don't believe the genesis story to be literal. The genesis story if read as a history makes zero sense. Day 1 God creates light and darkness. separates them and calls the light day and darkness light. Day 4 God puts lights in the heavens the greater (sun) to rule the day and the lesser (moon) to rule the night. We all know the sun is what gives us light during the day and the moon reflecting the sun gives us light at night. there could have been no night and day for the first day without the sun as the sun is the source of light on earth. Also we know the sun predates the earth. but the first verses of Genesis state in the beginning god created the heaven and the earth and then he separates night from day and then he doesn't create the sun til day 4. scientifically this is impossible because it implies the earth existed before the sun was created.

so for any scientist or person with a simple belief in science, the creation story cannot be literal because too many things are out of order.

This is the basis I start from.

2) The creation story in chapter 1 verse 26 is where God creates man and woman in "out image" and gives them dominion over the earth. note that the chapter does not mention Adam and Eve by name here. He calls them man- male and female. and puts them on the earth.

Chapter 2 begins with the 7th day when god rests. verse 1
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them..... so this concluded the initial creation but then we pick up with verse 4 which says
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew:
This implies that the first 7 days as described in chapter 1 did not constitute the entirety of creation. That the creation described in Chapter 1 was a separate creation.
for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So according to the chronology as I read it there was the i intial creation 6 days long where God creates everything and man, male and female but then afterward he creates the garden. And creates man and breathes life into his nostrils.

In the Garden there are two trees- Tree of Life and the Tree Of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The only fruit Adam and Eve are commanded not to touch is the Tree of Knowledge, so its safe to assume that Adam and Eve ate from the tree of life up to when they were expelled from the Garden. Once Adam eats from the tree he is expelled from the Garden and enters the world as we know it.

This reading implies that the Garden as was created was separate from the Earth. It also implies two separate creations of the earth, a spiritual creation and a physical creation. After the physical creation, the earth and the Garden coexisted and in this reading there were humans on the earth but not Adam. As in Chapter 1 man is created and placed on the earth but not named Adam. I would say these are the homonids and early humans.

While evolution was occurring and becoming the "modern" version of earth we know, Adam and Eve existed in the Garden, living an immortal like existence because they regularly consumed the tree of life. This was a perfect marriage of spiritual and physical creation akin to the rules of heaven amd the afterlife.

after they ate from the tree of knowledge, this caused a physical change in their bodies which changed the way their brains worked they were cast out of that plane of existence and were placed on the modern earth which was already inhabited by hominids which had been created by God as well, separately from Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve enter this physical world and procreate with the homonids.

It is at this point in the evolutionary tree we see the giant leap forward for hominid species where technology and societies form because up until the arrival of adam and eve the homonids were like monkeys- capable of using rudimentary tools but not capable of things like planning and preparing for the future, dictating morality, all the sorts of abstract thinking that is singularly human.

Adam and Eve had this because they partook of the Tree of Knowledge which changed their genetic makeup and allowed the abstract thinking. Then they brought this ability from the spiritual plane (Garden of Eden) and as their children intermarried with homonids this ability spread to all other homonids and thus the human race as we know it was born.

I know that alot of this explanation is probably heretical and this will get me some grief on here because i am a heretic.

But this is how I reconcile science with the creation story. I don't think the Genesis story is literal. If it is literal as conventionally read it makes zero sense. there is no reconciliation, but if you read it without dogmatic eyes, there is room there for science and for it to make sense.

My theory is that the tree of life caused a fundamental change in gene expression, which led to the change in human brain function we see today which separates us from chimps and other apes.

I find it fascinating that people doubt that an omnipotent God who clearly loves order would have trouble creating an "old" earth.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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I find it fascinating that people doubt that an omnipotent God who clearly loves order would have trouble creating an "old" earth.

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The Old Earth at creation idea hurts my brain. If God created an Earth with the appearance of a long history, then God must have imagined/remembered/invented that entire history and considered how that history would physically appear at the time of creation. But God is the ultimate reference frame for reality. So if He imagined/remembered/invented an entire history and put the evidence of that history into the physical creation, then how is that any different from it actually happening?

It also freaks me out for a lot of other reasons. What if God chose not to make the world material 6000 years ago? What if He made it material 100 years ago and made an entire history to go along? Or what about just before I was born? Or 5 minutes ago? What if I'm living the memories of an invented history that hasn't yet been made material?

Yikes.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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I find it fascinating that people doubt that an omnipotent God who clearly loves order would have trouble creating an "old" earth.

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The Old Earth at creation idea hurts my brain. If God created an Earth with the appearance of a long history, then God must have imagined/remembered/invented that entire history and considered how that history would physically appear at the time of creation. But God is the ultimate reference frame for reality. So if He imagined/remembered/invented an entire history and put the evidence of that history into the physical creation, then how is that any different from it actually happening?

It also freaks me out for a lot of other reasons. What if God chose not to make the world material 6000 years ago? What if He made it material 100 years ago and made an entire history to go along? Or what about just before I was born? Or 5 minutes ago? What if I'm living the memories of an invented history that hasn't yet been made material?

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Interesting. I've never really thought of it that way.

This is my same annoyance with Docetism. Like... if Christ only appeared to suffer, why would he suddenly let you figure out it was just for show?


I just imagine everything was made in a fast forward fashion. Shrug. It doesnt plague me the way it does some people. It seems like the most straightforward solution.