Salvation has always been by grace through faith alone and the key word is "believe".

Example Pre-Christ.
Genesis 15:5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Examples during the life of Christ:
John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Example Post Resurrection:
1 Cor. 15:1-4 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

The object of faith is always God and combined with a promise/words of God. You and I are sinners, Jesus died for your sins and my sins and 3 days later He rose from the dead. The moment one 'believe's that Jesus did this for them" then they receive the Holy Spirit. They are saved. Faith always has an object and the object of faith in the gospel is Jesus and Jesus saves through faith.

Intellectual 'faith' is believing that God exists and sent Jesus to die for the sins of the world. God saves through faith when one believes that Jesus died for the sins of me, and He alone is the object of my trust. It helps to think of this in it's opposite. The opposite of believe is to not-believe or to trust in something else other than Jesus.

Jesus is enough and the work is complete and sufficient.

DirtDiver said:

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Salvation has always been by grace through faith alone and the key word is "believe".

Example Pre-Christ.
Genesis 15:5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Examples during the life of Christ:
John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Example Post Resurrection:
1 Cor. 15:1-4 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

The object of faith is always God and combined with a promise/words of God. You and I are sinners, Jesus died for your sins and my sins and 3 days later He rose from the dead. The moment one 'believe's that Jesus did this for them" then they receive the Holy Spirit. They are saved. Faith always has an object and the object of faith in the gospel is Jesus and Jesus saves through faith.

Intellectual 'faith' is believing that God exists and sent Jesus to die for the sins of the world. God saves through faith when one believes that Jesus died for the sins of me, and He alone is the object of my trust. It helps to think of this in it's opposite. The opposite of believe is to not-believe or to trust in something else other than Jesus.

Jesus is enough and the work is complete and sufficient.

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Point of parliamentary procedure...If we focus on the term 'believe' by that definition...Doesn't Satan believe Christ died and rose again? My point is, doesn't it require a more robust definition that leans more toward a spiritual belief/hope...aka faith?

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A plain reading of the text

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Vs....

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1. Saved and Salvation: The mistake is made when a persons assumes that every time the word salvation or saved is used it's referring to salvation from hell or eternal life.

1 Peter 1:5 uses the word salvation to refer to a future salvation that these already saved believers should look forward to.

2. Baptism - when one assumes every reference to baptism is a water baptism we misunderstand most passages in the NT.
3. Dead - when one assumes that this always refers to Spiritual death then one will not understand the book of James.

Tools to prevent this:
1. Saved, Salvation - Who is the audience? Is it people who are already saved from hell because they put their faith in Jesus previously or is the audience people who need to hear the gospel and be saved for the very first time? What is the person being saved from in the context of the passage? Useless life, reward, violated conscious, etc.
2. Baptism - What is the person being baptized in, in the passage? With the Holy Spirit, or into Christ and his death?
3.. Dead - does the word mean spiritual death, physical death, or useless (as in dead weight). All 3 are found in the NT.

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You see, for 1500+ years all the people, including those who were reading the scriptures in their native tongues, and those to whom the letters were addressed, and those taught by the disciples and their immediate successive generations - they *all* forgot to ask these simple questions, and therefore made all kinds of regrettably silly mistakes.

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Point of parliamentary procedure...If we focus on the term 'believe' by that definition...Doesn't Satan believe Christ died and rose again? My point is, doesn't it require a more robust definition that leans more toward a spiritual belief/hope...aka faith?

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I clarified the difference above with a human example. Believe in biblical terms is not believing the set of facts that Jesus died and rose again. It's believing or trusting that Jesus died for the sins of me. It's a personal ownership of our sin and separation from God and an acceptance of the work of Jesus alone and not some other action.

Notice the key words and the personal ownership of sins below.

1 Cor. 15:1-4 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

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James 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

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Demons definitely believe that God is one, that they will be judged, and that Jesus rose from the dead.

1. We have zero evidence of salvation being made available to demons.
2. Demons live in active outright rebellion and there's no evidence that they are humbling themselves to the point in which they "Thank God" for dying for their sins.
3. There's no evidence that they receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of belief
4. Further more, James is speaking to believers (people already saved) encouraging them to be saved from living a useless life as a believer and encouraging them to have a perfected faith. This is not a book written on how to have eternal life.

A person is saved at one moment in time when they trust (believe) in Jesus through the gospel. At that time they are a new creation, filled with the indwelling Holy Spirit, and new babies in Christ. Most of the NT is written to these believers instructing them on ways to grow in their faith and press on to spiritual maturity. Fellowship, rewards, crowns, status in the future, reigning with Christ in the future kingdom are some of the rewards for pressing on to maturity and enduring persecution faithfully. One's eternity is secure at the moment of belief, one's experience of eternity is determined how well they 'walk by the spirit'.

Example of belief: Abraham Gen. 15:6 is the most quoted verse from the OT to the NT. God made Abraham a promise.

Genesis 15: 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Explained in Romans 4: (notice the personal ownership of sins again)
20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. 22 Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness. 23 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, 24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.

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You see, for 1500+ years all the people, including those who were reading the scriptures in their native tongues, and those to whom the letters were addressed, and those taught by the disciples and their immediate successive generations - they *all* forgot to ask these simple questions, and therefore made all kinds of regrettably silly mistakes.

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Or the disciples warned us of people who would distort the gospel to destroy our liberty in Christ. In the context of the entire book of Galatians, what are the different things that people attempted to add to the gospel that he refuted?

The warnings...
Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

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Example of belief: Abraham Gen. 15:6 is the most quoted verse from the OT to the NT. God made Abraham a promise.

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Psst no it's not. It's Psalm 110:1.

Aaaaand now we've move from saying everyone before the Reformation merely got it wrong to everyone before the Reformation taught a false gospel and are accursed.

k2aggie07 said:

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Aaaaand now we've move from saying everyone before the Reformation merely got it wrong to everyone before the Reformation taught a false gospel and are accursed.

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The great irony here is that the printing press made Patristic works available to the layman on a scale which was unthinkable before, yet simultaneously the aperture of Protestant attention narrowed almost exclusively to the New Testament, New Testament studies, New Testament commentaries, etc. in an intellectual vacuum.

It's as if the Church didn't exist for 1,500+ years.

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Migne's Ataliers catholiques employed 5 steam-powered presses, and by 1854 some 596 workers. On average, it published a book every ten days for thirty years. In summary these were:

• Patrologia Latina, 217 tomes in 218 volumes
• Patrologia Gaeca, 161 tomes in 166 volumes
• Greek Fathers in Latin, 81 tomes in 85 volumes
• Scripturae sacrae cursus completus, 25 volumes
• Theologia cursus completus, 25 volumes
• Dmonstration vangeliques des plus clbres dfenseurs du Christianism, 18 volumes
• Orateurs sacrs in two series, 66 and 33 volumes
• Premire encyclopdie thologique ou srie de dictionnaires sur toutes les parties de la science religieuse, 50 volumes
• Nouvelle encyclopdie thologique, 53 volumes
• Troisime et dernire encylopdie ecclsiastique, 66 volumes
• Summa aurea de laudibus B. Mariae virginis, 13 volumes
• Diverse works, 150 volumes

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Paul_Migne#Summary_of_publications

k2aggie07 said:

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Aaaaand now we've move from saying everyone before the Reformation merely got it wrong to everyone before the Reformation taught a false gospel and are accursed.

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This is why the Reformers worked so hard to make it clear that they were Reforming, not creating new.

Right, to the point that they come up with ridiculous theories like the Great Apostasy or the Trail of Blood.

It's kind of funny, if it wasn't so sad.

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Aaaaand now we've move from saying everyone before the Reformation merely got it wrong to everyone before the Reformation taught a false gospel and are accursed.

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Whoever adds conditions other than faith in Christ through the gospel (below) gets it wrong. Whether it's works, baptism, church attendance, etc. This is what the apostles taught.

1 Cor. 15 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

A person can be on death row having never done anything good, with no hope of water baptism, no money, no possessions to give away, and can put their faith in Jesus and His death and resurrection as payment for their sins and be killed in the next moment and can be saved.
*see also thief on the cross

Christians fill up what is deficient in Christ's afflictions.

You're still setting up the activity of God in a Christian as a condition that is "other than" instead of "part of" faith in Christ.

Note well St Paul says "of first importance" but obviously not "of only importance" because he doesn't end the letter there. And since you note that context is so important, we should remember that St Paul reiterated the gospel as a teaching moment, a rebuke to some who said there is no resurrection of the dead.

No one here has argued against the idea that God is sovereign and He saves whom He will by grace and mercy - the same way He saves all of us. In fact I literally said on the first page that no one has said baptism is required to be saved.

I think this all hinges on what you mean by "be saved." What do you mean by "be saved"?

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Christians fill up what is deficient in Christ's afflictions.

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Agree but this has nothing to do with Salvation.

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What do you mean by being saved?

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Yes! This is the question that must be asked every we read the word saved in the Bible. In other words, what is the person being saved from in this passage? sins, hell, punishment, suffering, physical death, loss of reward, a guilty conscious, etc.

In every post I've made I'm talking about a very specific salvation which is Justification in the Eyes of God which is the gift of eternal life that comes through faith alone in Christ. The very moment a person places their faith in Jesus, they receive the Holy Spirit, they are born again, they are a new creation, their sins and lawless deeds past, present and future, will be remembered no more, they have peace with God and are no longer enemies. [Christ definitely command holy living for the believer, baptism in water as a public identification in which one is telling the world, "I identify with Christ", is great and believers should do this, however these good things that we do, are NOT what saves us from our sins for the purpose of justification in the eyes of God).

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Then why do you keep making a misleading equivalence between justification and salvation? Justification is not salvation. They're not the same thing, there's a reason there's two words. This is scriptural - you can see both used in Romans 5:9, "having been justified...we will be saved."

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I 100 percent disagree. Notice the differing verb tenses. A person is declared righteous at the moment of faith in Jesus. In Romans 5:9 this person is justified - declared righteous in the eyes of God through faith. This person saved from the penalty of sin has a future salvation to look forward to as well and that is being saved from the future wrath of God which is poured out on those not justified by faith.

Justification in the eyes of God is the gift of eternal life which is salvation from hell and the penalty of sin.

9 Much more then, having now been justified- (declared righteous) by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified - as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

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When the Orthodox speak of salvation they view it as a complete redemption of the person to be human, in the context of eternity. Teleologically, eschatologically, to use the fancy words. It's a total act, not a moment.

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I understand that this is your view. My claim is that when the Bible speaks of salvation is can mean: salvation from sin, hell, a useless life as a believer, loss of reward, acknowledgement, physical death, sickness, etc. My 2nd claim is that the number 1 mistake in interpretation is assuming every time the word saved or salvation is used, it's referring to salvation from hell and eternal life. My 3rd claim is the Bible isolates salvation from hell, (justification) in the eyes of God to make sure people are clear that baptism, holy living, church membership or participation does not rescue a person from their sins. Only Jesus does this with the specific baptism of the Holy Spirit (which is NOT water baptism) at the moment of faith in Him,

Jesus is enough and saves a person eternally at one moment in time FROM the penalty of sin and Hell. At this moment they are born again. They SHOULD live a holy life, but if they do not, they are still saved from the penalty of sin and hell as they were declared righteous at the moment of faith and received the Holy Spirit.

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It's like marriage. When you are married, at the moment of the culmination of the marriage, you are truly married. But that's not the end of being married, and it isn't the fullness of staying married, even in a functional sense. And similarly, salvation is spoken of in the context of rebirth - being born, you are truly alive. But birth is the beginning of life not the totality of it.

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Agree! And if a husband doesn't do the dishes this does not mean that he's not married. Likewise a person who has placed their faith in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of his/her sins is saved if they are never baptized in water.

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You mention that Christ commanded "holy living." I do not think it is possible to make a cutoff between believing in Christ, believing who He is, and living as He commanded. It is not moralism, it's not about "goodness" even in a divine sense. It is a truth that He is the Way and the Life. You can't separate "follow Me" from "believe in the One He sent" from baptism from justification from sanctification. Denying a part denies the whole, because it is simply about Jesus. "Holy living" isn't just required moral action. Even atheist and pagan cultures had this. "Holy living" is relationship with the divine - it sanctification, it literally living in a holy way. And sanctification through obedience, humility, following Christ, is also salvation. As St Paul says, we have "salvation in the sanctification of the Spirit and by faith in the Truth." (2 Thess 2:13). This is something we do, we yield ourselves in slavery to righteousness unto sanctification - the fruit leads to sanctification, and the end is eternal life.(Romans 6:19,22).

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Justification in the eyes of God is a moment in time through faith alone (getting married). Salvation from hell and penalty of sin.
Obedience, Holy living, should be done by all believers. Believers will succeed at times and fail at times. These failures do not invalidate the marriage. Saves us from being useless, saves us from loss of eternal reward and recognition, saves us from guilt, and the natural consequences of sin, etc
Future salvation: Believers who are Justified in the eyes of God have a future salvation to look forward to as well, salvation from the wrath of God being poured out on those who don't believe (not conditional upon holy living), salvation from a perishable, weak, sin addicted physical body.

Which salvation is being referred to in every verse of the NT?

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To bring it back to the context of baptism, the scriptures also speak of baptism as a moment of justification - 1 Corinthians 6:11 says "but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." The word for wash away (apolouo, apo away + luou wash) used there appears only one other place in scripture, and that is Acts To bring it back to the context of baptism, the scriptures also speak of baptism as a moment of justification - "Get up, be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." The base word for wash, louo, is used several times in baptismal context - Titus 3:5, as I mentioned previously "through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit", Hebrews 10:22 "our body having been washed with pure water" and Ephesians 5:26 "having cleansed [the Church] by the washing of water by the word." The base word for wash, louo, is used several times in baptismal context - Titus 3:5, as I mentioned previously "through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit", Hebrews 10:22 "our body having been washed with pure water" and Ephesians 5:26 "having cleansed [the Church] by the washing of water by the word."

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1 Cor 6:11 assumes water baptism
Act: 16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'
"calling on His name" is a directly tied to wash away your sins and not baptism.
Be baptized could mean water, could mean Holy Spirit, could mean be 'identified".

Baptism in water doesn't wash sins away.

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You say what saves us from our sins is not what we do, and you imply that it is faith alone. But the scriptures say justified by faith, not by faith alone. And the truth is, we are not saved by justification but by Christ. Not by our belief, as if our belief alone can save us, our even our faith alone. Like the three holy youths in Daniel said, we know God can save us, we believe He can save us, but it is not our place to say if He will. We are saved by Christ Jesus. He is the who, what, where, when, and how of salvation - the beginning, the end, the middle, the process, the way. That's why I said, way back, that what must we do to be saved? Everything and nothing. Because there is nothing that we can do to save ourselves. Not even belief saves us apart from the action of God. And being saved, we must submit ourselves as slaves to righteousness, because being saved is the end, not the beginning.

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Faith alone in Jesus alone does save us from sin and hell.

The book of James is written to believers who are already saved from hell, instructing, motivating them to be saved from a useless or profitless life as a believer. Salvation from hell and the penalty of sin is not even on his mind. Justification in the eyes of God is not on his mind.

God saves us from the penalty of sin and hell and gives us eternal life at a single moment in time and seals the deal with the Holy Spirit. God's desire is that this believer presses onto maturity by living a holy life and sharing the gospel to all and offering it without cost. A believer not living a holy life has a lot to lose but losing eternity is not on the table.

DirtDiver said:

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The book of James is written to believers who are already saved from hell, instructing, motivating them to be saved from a useless or profitless life as a believer. Salvation from hell and the penalty of sin is not even on his mind. Justification in the eyes of God is not on his mind.

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James 2:24: You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

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Work out your salvation.

Phil 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure

Audience: Saved or unsaved?

To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, 4 always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all, 5 in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now. 6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. 7 For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me. 8 For God is my witness, how I long for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus. 9 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, 10 so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ; 11 having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

Notice the thanksgiving and goals for these believers in these verses:

• always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all, 5 in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now.
• He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
• I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment,
• so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ
• having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ,

12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Observations;

• these people have "always obeyed"
• it doesn't say they are saved by works.
• Salvation from what?
• How did God get "in them"

What works would a person who always obeyed need to do if this is saying works is saving them?

Alternate interpretive option. Be afraid and tremble because God is in you to both will and work for His good pleasure and not yours. Work out of your salvation (which you already have) not for your salvation.

You start with a presupposition and then force the text into your interpretative framework. The scriptures are quite clear that we work with God, so "He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus" is perfectly supporting of us working out our salvation. Since perfection is the process of salvation.

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Work out of your salvation (which you already have) not for your salvation.

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Except that isn't what it says, is it?

You disagree that salvation and justified are not the same thing? I can't understand this. They are two different words used in two different ways. This is about the opposite of a "plain reading of the text."

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baptism, holy living, church membership or participation does not rescue a person from their sins. Only Jesus does this with the specific baptism of the Holy Spirit (which is NOT water baptism) at the moment of faith in Him,

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This is a straw man. At no time has anyone ever claimed that baptism, holy living, or church membership saves a person from their sins, so arguing against is beside the point. And by the same token neither does faith save us - as you say, Christ saves us.

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Act: 16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'
"calling on His name" is a directly tied to wash away your sins and not baptism. Be baptized could mean water, could mean Holy Spirit, could mean be 'identified"..

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Again, not by a plan faced reading. Baptized and wash are certainly clearly much closer concepts (immersion and washing). And then perhaps more strongly not even grammatically. Be baptized and washed away are both in the same tense (aorist imperative middle - 2nd person singular), they're commands. Calling on his name is aorist participle middle-nominative masculine singular, it is a description of the baptismal act, not a separate event. In other words, being baptized in His name is calling on His name.

Could mean vs plain faced reading. You should pick which standard you're going to use.

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Baptism in water doesn't wash sins away.

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Assertion without scriptural support. You could make a similarly hollow argument to say "calling on the name of the Lord doesn't wash sins away" but adding the exact same implication you omitted - if it is done absent of faith and grace. "Calling on His name" is what baptism is, just as it is what repentance is, just as scripturally to "call on the name of the Lord" is a catch-all description of all worship.

Can't change your mind, and honestly not really trying to. Just trying to show that when pressed your interpretation is hardly simply what the scriptures say. If we open it up to what it "could" say or adding and subtracting words, we can make the scriptures say whatever we like.

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You start with a presupposition and then force the text into your interpretative framework. The scriptures are quite clear that we work with God, so "He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus" is perfectly supporting of us working out our salvation. Since perfection is the process of salvation.

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Work out of your salvation (which you already have) not for your salvation.

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Except that isn't what it says, is it?

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Work out your salvation from what? It doesn't say work for your salvation. Explain.

Answer this, "I know that I have eternal life and will be with Jesus forever because _______"?

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You disagree that salvation and justified are not the same thing? I can't understand this. They are two different words used in two different ways. This is about the opposite of a "plain reading of the text."

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Connect these dots...

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account."

What does it mean be declared righteous in the eyes of God in the passage above? What is the person saved from?

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baptism, holy living, church membership or participation does not rescue a person from their sins. Only Jesus does this with the specific baptism of the Holy Spirit (which is NOT water baptism) at the moment of faith in Him,

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This is a straw man. At no time has anyone ever claimed that baptism, holy living, or church membership saves a person from their sins, so arguing against is beside the point. And by the same token neither does faith save us - as you say, Christ saves us

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Quote: No, it's definitely you. There is no opposition between confession, good works, belief, faith, baptism, and grace in the scriptures. As for what is required to be saved, the answer is "yes." Everything and nothing. Nothing we do can save us. But likewise we are told to be pure, perfect, and sinless. These things also are not in opposition. Your entire approach creates a divide where there is none.

What must one do to be saved from hell?

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Again, not by a plan faced reading. Baptized and wash are certainly clearly much closer concepts (immersion and washing). And then perhaps more strongly not even grammatically. Be baptized and washed away are both in the same tense (aorist imperative middle - 2nd person singular), they're commands. Calling on his name is aorist participle middle-nominative masculine singular, it is a description of the baptismal act, not a separate event. In other words, being baptized in His name is calling on His name.

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16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.

Are you saying that if Paul was not baptized in water, then He's dead in his sins and that baptism in water is what washes are sins away?

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Baptism in water doesn't wash sins away.

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Assertion without scriptural support. You could make a similarly hollow argument to say "calling on the name of the Lord doesn't wash sins away" but adding the exact same implication you omitted - if it is done absent of faith and grace. "Calling on His name" is what baptism is, just as it is what repentance is, just as scripturally to "call on the name of the Lord" is a catch-all description of all worship.

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My support would be at the moment of faith in God/Jesus, a person is declared righteous in the eyes of God aka. saved from their sins..

Eph 2 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

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James 2:24: You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

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Justified in whose eyes in the following verses?
James 2:24: You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Romans 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Luke 10:29 But wishing to justify himself, he said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"


Reconcile:
James 2:24: You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Romans 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Eph. 2:8-9 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

James Entire book -

Is the audience believers or non-believers?
From the rest of the NT what is true of believers?

James 2: What are the people or person being saved from in James? Hell, sins, or something else?

Hypothetical: When a person says, "what must I do to be saved?" Can you within 5 minutes give them a clear presentation of the gospel and what they must believe to be saved?

If one answers 'everything and nothing' what do you tell them next? This answer alone is insufficient to introduce people to Jesus to.

DirtDiver said:

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Hypothetical: When a person says, "what must I do to be saved?" Can you within 5 minutes give them a clear presentation of the gospel and what they must believe to be saved?

If one answers 'everything and nothing' what do you tell them next? This answer alone is insufficient to introduce people to Jesus to.

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A life dedicated to following Christ is far stronger than a five minute elevator pitch.

Just follow Christ. That means having faith in Him. That means reading His teachings and following His commandments.

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Quote:

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Hypothetical: When a person says, "what must I do to be saved?" Can you within 5 minutes give them a clear presentation of the gospel and what they must believe to be saved?

If one answers 'everything and nothing' what do you tell them next? This answer alone is insufficient to introduce people to Jesus to.

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A life dedicated to following Christ is far stronger than a five minute elevator pitch.

Just follow Christ. That means having faith in Him. That means reading His teachings and following His commandments.

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Following Christ is something every believer should do. No argument there. Make a list of all that Christ taught and commanded. If you have done this perfectly then you are without sin and do not need Jesus. If you have failed to do this, then you need to (believe, trust, accept) what Jesus has done for you. This is the gospel. The good news. It's not an elevator speech as eternity is at stake.

Are you trusting in your obedience to a list of command that you and I fall way short of ever obeying?
If so, all you can do is hope at by the end of your life you obeyed enough. You have zero assurance of your salvation as you do not know if you will follow Jesus tomorrow, the next day, or the next.

The gospel is good news. Obeying a list of commands is not good news. Good news is that while i am dead or was dead in my sins, Jesus died for me. It was impossible for the thief on the cross to 'follow all of Jesus commands' but it was not impossible for Him to believe in Jesus.

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It's a strange thing to look at all the promises of the scriptures, which spend a great deal of time speaking about growing, being saved, looking forward to our hope, being perfected, being fulfilled, and so on, and focusing in on "don't go to hell" or "go to heaven" as the main focal point.

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I do this for the following reasons:
1. The bible talks about salvation (justification in the eyes of God) being absolutely free and costing us nothing because Christ paid it all
2. The books written about looking forward to our hope, being perfected, being fulfilled are all written to believers. There are people who have already believed in Jesus. These passages are not talking about how to have eternal life.
3. When the question is asked, "what must I do to be saved?" and your answer is everything and nothing and you fail to mention that we are separated from God because of our sin, Jesus died and rose again to pay for that sin, then you never give a person the opportunity to accept what Jesus has freely done for them.

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Further, even in the powerful justification language of Romans St Paul says - we ourselves, even having the firstfruit of the Spirit, also groan ourselves in ourselves, awaiting divine adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. For in this hope we were saved; but hope being seen is no hope; for does anyone hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we await in patience.

Who would argue that we are not Sons? Galatians 3:36 says For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. But how can this be if we are awaiting divine adoption? Because salvation is both finished and in process. We are saved, we are being saved, we will be saved.

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I feel like now we are getting somewhere. Yes, there are multiple "salvation" references in the scriptures as you just pointed out. A quick reference:

Salvation:
Justification in the eyes of God - salvation from hell and the penalty of sins - free gift through faith. Most often used in the past tense. Key word - believe
Sanctification - the process in which Christ works through the believer to set them apart, salvation from loss of reward, a useless or unprofitable life. Usually involves our participation or 'walking with Christ in obedience" key words: endure, abide, walk by. (Heaven and hell is not at stake)
Glorification - (your Romans 5 verse above) body is redeemed, adoption is realized, perishable body is exchanged for an imperishable body. most often in the future tense.

When some one asks, "What must I do to be saved." We start with the free gift of the gospel. If this is never accepted freely by faith, all of the other references to 'salvation' are worthless or meaningless. A cliche way to put it is, God doesn't want you do try and do anything for Him until you accept what He's done for you.

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What we shouldn't do is put scripture against scripture and make it say what it simply doesn't say. That is, some other kind of salvation apart from Christ. He is Life. He is the Way. He is the Resurrection. He is our Hope. He is our Salvation: Salvation quite simply is Christ, and any small-s instance of salvation is a portion of Him, and that includes justification. We should listen to His words on the meaning of salvation: He says He came to seek and save the lost, save the sick, bind up what was broken, to save the world. And He says in this that He is the Gate, and you must enter through Him. He came to give life, but not only to give life but to for us to have it abundantly.

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YES! This is it. Notice how this is all about how we are separated from God and what He has done for us in Jesus. He gets all of the credit. Yes Jesus came to give us life and abundant life. The point I've been trying to make all along is that some verses instruct us how to have life (justification in God's eyes by faith) and how to have the abundant life (abide, obey, walk by the spirit, confess, etc). If we do not offer the gospel freely to people so that they believe, they never have the opportunity to have the abundant life because God is not in them to work and to will for His good pleasure. One cannot walk by the Spirit if they do not have the spirit which is given at the moment of belief.

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We have assurance in our salvation because He died for us while we were still sinners, demonstrating His unilateral love for mankind.

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YES!

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All this focus on being saved from hell is like a young child saying he doesn't need to know or love or see his father because he's already born. Christianity is NOT about avoiding hell. It is about God - beautiful, amazing, wonderful, loving God. So little of the scriptures are about hell, but for some reason this theology turns everything into a single legalistic verdict. Our lives aren't about avoiding hell. They're about gaining God Himself - what could possibly by worth talking about or even thinking about by comparison?

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Until people accept what Jesus has done for them, they do not have the Spirit of God dwelling within them. A person giving their best effort to obey a list of commands is dead in their sins as they have not accepted what Jesus has done for them. If we do not make this clear distinction how will people believe so that they can receive the Holy spirit and then obey?

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1:13

Saw this video today seems relevant to the discussion on this thread.

k2aggie07 said:

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I have no idea who he is. Truthfully neither the Roman Catholic church nor the Orthodox teach a works based salvation. It is a lazy argument.

The scripture's don't actually say anything about a work of man, but they speak of works of the Law. To say that the work of a man is not salvific is also a theological problem: Jesus Christ is truly man and truly God. So we are saved by both God and Man, the theanthropos Jesus Christ.

There's this general trend in modern protestantism to have an implicit dualism. This rejects the material world in the role of salvation, denies that somehow any physical thing can be holy or used by God in salvation. It informs their views on baptism and the Eucharist.

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K2, this is one of my favorite posts from you. The implicit dualism as you call it seems at best to ignore the Incarnation (and all of its implications for true Christian soteriology) and at worst to denigrate it. Meanwhile, our risen Savior is in his glorified and resurrected BODY...

DirtDiver said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Hypothetical: When a person says, "what must I do to be saved?" Can you within 5 minutes give them a clear presentation of the gospel and what they must believe to be saved?

If one answers 'everything and nothing' what do you tell them next? This answer alone is insufficient to introduce people to Jesus to.

---

A life dedicated to following Christ is far stronger than a five minute elevator pitch.

Just follow Christ. That means having faith in Him. That means reading His teachings and following His commandments.

---

Following Christ is something every believer should do. No argument there. Make a list of all that Christ taught and commanded. If you have done this perfectly then you are without sin and do not need Jesus. If you have failed to do this, then you need to (believe, trust, accept) what Jesus has done for you. This is the gospel. The good news. It's not an elevator speech as eternity is at stake.

Are you trusting in your obedience to a list of command that you and I fall way short of ever obeying?
If so, all you can do is hope at by the end of your life you obeyed enough. You have zero assurance of your salvation as you do not know if you will follow Jesus tomorrow, the next day, or the next.

The gospel is good news. Obeying a list of commands is not good news. Good news is that while i am dead or was dead in my sins, Jesus died for me. It was impossible for the thief on the cross to 'follow all of Jesus commands' but it was not impossible for Him to believe in Jesus.

Quote:

---

It's a strange thing to look at all the promises of the scriptures, which spend a great deal of time speaking about growing, being saved, looking forward to our hope, being perfected, being fulfilled, and so on, and focusing in on "don't go to hell" or "go to heaven" as the main focal point.

---

I do this for the following reasons:
1. The bible talks about salvation (justification in the eyes of God) being absolutely free and costing us nothing because Christ paid it all
2. The books written about looking forward to our hope, being perfected, being fulfilled are all written to believers. There are people who have already believed in Jesus. These passages are not talking about how to have eternal life.
3. When the question is asked, "what must I do to be saved?" and your answer is everything and nothing and you fail to mention that we are separated from God because of our sin, Jesus died and rose again to pay for that sin, then you never give a person the opportunity to accept what Jesus has freely done for them.

Quote:

---

Further, even in the powerful justification language of Romans St Paul says - we ourselves, even having the firstfruit of the Spirit, also groan ourselves in ourselves, awaiting divine adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. For in this hope we were saved; but hope being seen is no hope; for does anyone hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we await in patience.

Who would argue that we are not Sons? Galatians 3:36 says For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. But how can this be if we are awaiting divine adoption? Because salvation is both finished and in process. We are saved, we are being saved, we will be saved.

---

I feel like now we are getting somewhere. Yes, there are multiple "salvation" references in the scriptures as you just pointed out. A quick reference:

Salvation:
Justification in the eyes of God - salvation from hell and the penalty of sins - free gift through faith. Most often used in the past tense. Key word - believe
Sanctification - the process in which Christ works through the believer to set them apart, salvation from loss of reward, a useless or unprofitable life. Usually involves our participation or 'walking with Christ in obedience" key words: endure, abide, walk by. (Heaven and hell is not at stake)
Glorification - (your Romans 5 verse above) body is redeemed, adoption is realized, perishable body is exchanged for an imperishable body. most often in the future tense.

When some one asks, "What must I do to be saved." We start with the free gift of the gospel. If this is never accepted freely by faith, all of the other references to 'salvation' are worthless or meaningless. A cliche way to put it is, God doesn't want you do try and do anything for Him until you accept what He's done for you.

Quote:

---

What we shouldn't do is put scripture against scripture and make it say what it simply doesn't say. That is, some other kind of salvation apart from Christ. He is Life. He is the Way. He is the Resurrection. He is our Hope. He is our Salvation: Salvation quite simply is Christ, and any small-s instance of salvation is a portion of Him, and that includes justification. We should listen to His words on the meaning of salvation: He says He came to seek and save the lost, save the sick, bind up what was broken, to save the world. And He says in this that He is the Gate, and you must enter through Him. He came to give life, but not only to give life but to for us to have it abundantly.

---

YES! This is it. Notice how this is all about how we are separated from God and what He has done for us in Jesus. He gets all of the credit. Yes Jesus came to give us life and abundant life. The point I've been trying to make all along is that some verses instruct us how to have life (justification in God's eyes by faith) and how to have the abundant life (abide, obey, walk by the spirit, confess, etc). If we do not offer the gospel freely to people so that they believe, they never have the opportunity to have the abundant life because God is not in them to work and to will for His good pleasure. One cannot walk by the Spirit if they do not have the spirit which is given at the moment of belief.

Quote:

---

We have assurance in our salvation because He died for us while we were still sinners, demonstrating His unilateral love for mankind.

---

YES!

Quote:

---

All this focus on being saved from hell is like a young child saying he doesn't need to know or love or see his father because he's already born. Christianity is NOT about avoiding hell. It is about God - beautiful, amazing, wonderful, loving God. So little of the scriptures are about hell, but for some reason this theology turns everything into a single legalistic verdict. Our lives aren't about avoiding hell. They're about gaining God Himself - what could possibly by worth talking about or even thinking about by comparison?

---

Until people accept what Jesus has done for them, they do not have the Spirit of God dwelling within them. A person giving their best effort to obey a list of commands is dead in their sins as they have not accepted what Jesus has done for them. If we do not make this clear distinction how will people believe so that they can receive the Holy spirit and then obey?

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1:13

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Having come from a long time growing up and studying the bible in a protestant church to studying the bible as a member of the Catholic denomination the past ten years....Here is what I think....That when you and K2 are standing before the Lord, you will learn where your interpretations were off, and where the were correct, and both of you will be welcomed into heaven. I choose to see "Faith" as both a one time initial expression of belief and also a commitment to open myself to the Holy Spirit to guide my continued faith during this lifetime. My walk with Christ is an action or work if you will. My walk isn't of my own effort without Christ.
From this post, it seems we all believe/have faith, can't we celebrate that instead of arguing?

Because some of these teachings lead to bad outcomes. We should always be willing to express the truth of our faith. This is most powerfully true when the people who hold these heterodox teachings have separated themselves from the Church because of them. The goal is union and communion, not victory.

k2,

You said "To bring it back to the context of baptism, the scriptures also speak of baptism as a moment of justification - 1 Corinthians 6:11 says "but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." The word for wash away (apolouo, apo away + luou wash) used there appears only one other place in scripture, and that is Acts 22:16 "Get up, be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." The base word for wash, louo, is used several times in baptismal context - Titus 3:5, as I mentioned previously "through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit", Hebrews 10:22 "our body having been washed with pure water" and Ephesians 5:26 "having cleansed [the Church] by the washing of water by the word." "

This is great. I immediately thought of Psalm 51, which I like to pray before and after receiving the Sacrament of Reconciliation and Healing (Confession). What does this concept of cleansing say about the idea of "imputed righteousness"?

Psalm 51
1 *Have mercy on me, O God, according to thy steadfast love; according to thy abundant mercy blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin!
3 For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in thy sight, so that thou art justified in thy sentence and blameless in thy judgment.
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward being; therefore teach me wisdom in my secret heart.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Fill* me with joy and gladness; let the bones which thou hast broken rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, and put a new and right* spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence, and take not thy holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of thy salvation, and uphold me with a willing spirit.
13 Then I will teach transgressors thy ways, and sinners will return to thee.
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness,* O God, thou God of my salvation, and my tongue will sing aloud of thy deliverance.
15 O Lord, open thou my lips, and my mouth shall show forth thy praise.
16 For thou hast no delight in sacrifice; were I to give a burnt offering, thou wouldst not be pleased.
17 The sacrifice acceptable to God* is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18 Do good to Zion in thy good pleasure; rebuild the walls of Jerusalem,
19 then wilt thou delight in right sacrifices, in burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings; then bulls will be offered on thy altar.