Happy Reformation Day

9,836 Views | 129 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by swimmerbabe11
Pro Sandy
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502 years of saying no to Johann Tetzel's pushy sales tactics for the church's capital campaign fundraiser.





SoulSlaveAG2005
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Quitters.
swimmerbabe11
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Great video!
AgLiving06
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Ironically Luther remained part of the Roman Catholic Church for nearly 4 more years before they kicked him out.
dermdoc
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swimmerbabe11 said:



Great video!
Agree. I could easily be a Lutheran. Grace, joy, and non condemning. As you know, I think at least all Christians should be able to partake in Communion but that is a small thing.

Thanks.
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Serotonin
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That is a good video, thanks for sharing.
swimmerbabe11
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He is a fantastic pastor with an infectious energy. He was the synod cantor, but just retired. Incredible musician with a love for the liturgy.It was fun to see.
chimpanzee
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No word on whether you get a free Pachamama idol with your purchase...

jrico2727
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500 years of schism is just sad. There is plenty of blame on all sides. One of Jesus's last prayers before his passion was for Christians to be one as he and the Father are one. All of us have disappointed our Lord and should sincerely try reconcile rather than multiply by dividing.
AgLiving06
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swimmerbabe11 said:

He is a fantastic pastor with an infectious energy. He was the synod cantor, but just retired. Incredible musician with a love for the liturgy.It was fun to see.

He just started a brand new podcast. Launched today called "The Word of the Lord endurs Forever"

Believe it will be a daily podcast going verse by verse through scripture.

He started today with an introduction into John.
Martin Q. Blank
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jrico2727 said:

500 years of schism is just sad. There is plenty of blame on all sides. One of Jesus's last prayers before his passion was for Christians to be one as he and the Father are one. All of us have disappointed our Lord and should sincerely try reconcile rather than multiply by dividing.
Step 1. The bishop of Rome is not the head of the church.
Ronnie
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Martin Q. Blank said:

jrico2727 said:

500 years of schism is just sad. There is plenty of blame on all sides. One of Jesus's last prayers before his passion was for Christians to be one as he and the Father are one. All of us have disappointed our Lord and should sincerely try reconcile rather than multiply by dividing.
Step 1. The bishop of Rome is not the head of the church.


Catholics believe Jesus is the head of the church.
chimpanzee
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Ronnie said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

jrico2727 said:

500 years of schism is just sad. There is plenty of blame on all sides. One of Jesus's last prayers before his passion was for Christians to be one as he and the Father are one. All of us have disappointed our Lord and should sincerely try reconcile rather than multiply by dividing.
Step 1. The bishop of Rome is not the head of the church.


Catholics believe Jesus is the head of the church.

Thank goodness the internet is finally on this question, it has been a sore bit for quite some time as I understand it.
Martin Q. Blank
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Ronnie said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

jrico2727 said:

500 years of schism is just sad. There is plenty of blame on all sides. One of Jesus's last prayers before his passion was for Christians to be one as he and the Father are one. All of us have disappointed our Lord and should sincerely try reconcile rather than multiply by dividing.
Step 1. The bishop of Rome is not the head of the church.
Catholics believe Jesus is the head of the church.
Good, so the bishop of Rome is not.
jrico2727
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Ronnie answered you correctly. Jesus is the founder and head of the Catholic Church. The Pope is his vicar.
Martin Q. Blank
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jrico2727 said:

Ronnie answered you correctly. Jesus is the founder and head of the Catholic Church. The Pope is his vicar.
No he's not.
Ronnie
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Ronnie said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

jrico2727 said:

500 years of schism is just sad. There is plenty of blame on all sides. One of Jesus's last prayers before his passion was for Christians to be one as he and the Father are one. All of us have disappointed our Lord and should sincerely try reconcile rather than multiply by dividing.
Step 1. The bishop of Rome is not the head of the church.
Catholics believe Jesus is the head of the church.
Good, so the bishop of Rome is not.
Yes that's correct, the Bishop of Rome is not the head of the Catholic Church.

What's step 2?
Ordhound04
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Martin Q. Blank said:

jrico2727 said:

Ronnie answered you correctly. Jesus is the founder and head of the Catholic Church. The Pope is his vicar.
No he's not.
When Christ gave the Keys to Peter (Matthew 16 :19) those were the keys of authority. This is a callback to Isaiah 22 when God gives the authority of the household of the King to Eliakim. (Vicar, Master of the House, Chamberlain of the House, etc)


Peter is not the King, he, however, is given authority. I mean if we care about scripture that is.
AgLiving06
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Martin Q. Blank said:

jrico2727 said:

500 years of schism is just sad. There is plenty of blame on all sides. One of Jesus's last prayers before his passion was for Christians to be one as he and the Father are one. All of us have disappointed our Lord and should sincerely try reconcile rather than multiply by dividing.
Step 1. The bishop of Rome is not the head of the church.

This is not the right first step.

The right first step is:

Step 1: The bishop of Rome does not have supreme power over the Church (i.e. Papal Supremacy).
Ronnie
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AgLiving06 said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

jrico2727 said:

500 years of schism is just sad. There is plenty of blame on all sides. One of Jesus's last prayers before his passion was for Christians to be one as he and the Father are one. All of us have disappointed our Lord and should sincerely try reconcile rather than multiply by dividing.
Step 1. The bishop of Rome is not the head of the church.

This is not the right first step.

The right first step is:

Step 1: The bishop of Rome does not have supreme power over the Church (i.e. Papal Supremacy).

Yeah, I see where you are going here. Do you reject the Pope's primacy among the Bishops or just the hierarchy in general?
AgLiving06
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Ronnie said:

AgLiving06 said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

jrico2727 said:

500 years of schism is just sad. There is plenty of blame on all sides. One of Jesus's last prayers before his passion was for Christians to be one as he and the Father are one. All of us have disappointed our Lord and should sincerely try reconcile rather than multiply by dividing.
Step 1. The bishop of Rome is not the head of the church.

This is not the right first step.

The right first step is:

Step 1: The bishop of Rome does not have supreme power over the Church (i.e. Papal Supremacy).

Yeah, I see where you are going here. Do you reject the Pope's primacy among the Bishops or just the hierarchy in general?

I'm sorry, but you're trying to change the topic. I did not mention primacy. Lets stay on topic.

Ronnie
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I respectfully disagree with this being the first step toward reunification. I am trying to unpack why that is your first step. Are you just trying to rephrase what someone else posted in a better way or do you really feel like that's the thing we have to start with?

If you don't agree there should be an organizational hierarchy or that Primacy among the bishops was established, I don't think the first step to reunification is to get the Pope to renounce supremacy that is derived from his place in the church. We have to start earlier or in a different area where we are closer together. There have been many ecumenical proclamations. Starting closer to where we agree would be helpful.
AgLiving06
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The problem with Martin's question is that it gave Roman Catholics a way to avoid the actual issue, as we saw occur. I wanted to make sure it was clear what will keep the Church separated and has since 1054.

Ronnie
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AgLiving06 said:

The problem with Martin's question is that it gave Roman Catholics a way to avoid the actual issue, as we saw occur. I wanted to make sure it was clear what will keep the Church separated and has since 1054.



Happy schism day?
AgLiving06
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Ronnie said:

AgLiving06 said:

The problem with Martin's question is that it gave Roman Catholics a way to avoid the actual issue, as we saw occur. I wanted to make sure it was clear what will keep the Church separated and has since 1054.



Happy schism day?

And this is why it has to be Step 1.

I suspect Catholics would bend on most doctrine, but the real wall will always be Papal Supremacy.
swimmerbabe11
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https://issuesetc.org/paths-to-lutheranism/

This has been a neat podcast series from Issues Etc. where they are having different pastors (and I believe most of these guys are converts but I'm not sure on each one) talk about the different paths from one faith to Lutheranism.
swimmerbabe11
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omg the muslim one.
seriously. Listen to that. He was in the Muslim Brotherhood.
Serotonin
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swimmerbabe11 said:

omg the muslim one.
seriously. Listen to that. He was in the Muslim Brotherhood.
I listened to the Orthodox convert to Lutheranism. Although he was baptized Lutheran and went to Lutheran school growing up, so does it really count?

He seems very humble and kind-hearted; I'd love to hear about the direction (if any) he was receiving from his Spiritual Father. Seems like he was trying to carry a heavy burden of spiritual practices without any moderation.
swimmerbabe11
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I looked for clarification on that because I was definitely confused on where/when he was Orthodox. Apparently throughout his youth into College... but I'm not really sure. I did enjoy his perspective and I wouldn't mind hearing more.
Redstone
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Ronnie! My old QB!

Been a long-time friend. Hope all is well with you and fam.

Ronnie
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I'm good man, family is great. Hope you and yours are well too.

I don't know why I post on R&P.
swimmerbabe11
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He did one for Orthodoxy too
Serotonin
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Cool, will have to watch.
Jaydoug
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One correction that I think the young man misunderstood. We do believe the Bible was written by Gods inspiration through the Holy Spirit. What is different is that original tradition, Liturgical practices, sacraments were also inspired by God through the Apostles and their successors. The Orthodox Church is the protector of that original inspiration.

One of the reason the Orthodox Patriarchs were taken aback by the Roman Pontiff's "revelation" over a 1,000 years after Pentecost and subsequent changes that continue to this day in the Roman Catholic Church. No need to change what was handed down by Christ's own Apostles. No changes necessary. The devil knows no new tricks. The heart of man is the same. Etc etc.

Also, Protestants (and I used to be one) point toward the sufficiency of the Bible compiled by an Ecumenical Council of Bishops but toss out everything else they agreed on for the first several hundred years. So, one would assume they felt the compilation of the book was inspired by God but that's it. They'd also assume Martin Luther tossing out books from the Bible 1,200 years later also to be God inspired.

Anyway, It was neat seeing his reaction to the physical aspects of worship in that space, visual and olfactory. Orthodox worship is a physical act, not just cognitive or emotive, just like will be in eternal glory.
AgLiving06
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Jaydoug said:


Also, Protestants (and I used to be one) point toward the sufficiency of the Bible compiled by an Ecumenical Council of Bishops but toss out everything else they agreed on for the first several hundred years. So, one would assume they felt the compilation of the book was inspired by God but that's it. They'd also assume Martin Luther tossing out books from the Bible 1,200 years later also to be God inspired.



I think you have to be careful here. The True Reformers (and since you specifically mentioned Luther) did not toss out Ecumenical Council decisions nor remove any books from the Bible.

Lutherans, at least, recognize all 7 of the first Ecumenical Councils that the East does. Roman Catholics obviously hold to many more Ecumenical Councils.

Certainly the later Christian groups tended to hold a less historical view, but that was not something encouraged by the Reformers.
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