In the "No one is suprised" section of the News, Pew Forum has another survey/dataset to look at:

https://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/

It's not as in-depth as the 2014 one, but still interesting nonetheless.

The erosion of the Catholicism is always particularly interesting to me due to the cultural affiliation that people have. I know many Catholics who aren't Catholics in belief or practice, but identify as such culturally.

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The erosion of the Catholicism is always particularly interesting to me due to the cultural affiliation that people have. I know many Catholics who aren't Catholics in belief or practice, but identify as such culturally.

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I think this applies to protestants too. I know a lot of people who would probably fill out a survey saying "Christian" or "Baptist" or whatever out of cultural affiliation that don't actually do any of the things that come alone with that and don't seem to actually believe in it all that much. At least not to the degree of it impacting their actions and choices. It's just what they're used to saying and what they're comfortable with.

I also wonder how much these polls reflect a genuine change in belief vs. an increased comfort level in saying none instead of doing like the people above because that's how they feel they're "supposed" to answer, regardless of what they actually think?

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I think this applies to protestants too

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True. I do believe their's is stronger though. I don't say it like it's a bad thing.

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I also wonder how much these polls reflect a genuine change in belief vs. an increased comfort level in saying none instead of doing like the people above because that's how they feel they're "supposed" to answer, regardless of what they actually think?

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I think there's always been an artificial "high" in the data the whole time that's now being stripped out as people are more comfortable revealing how they truly feel.

Ironically, the political landscape might even make it go the other way a bit - people who are Christian aren't identifying as such to avoid the silliness with Trump.

One of the things that I find interesting is that although affiliation in specific forms of religiosity are declining. The % of atheists has remained fairly steady. So while people are not "Catholic" or "Christian" in a religious sense, they certainly have maintained a "spirituality".

It reminds me of the term "moralistic therapeutic deism". A term coined in the early 2000s if I remember correctly. It's almost as if they are taking a more Joseph Campbell type of view to religion. Their is some truth out their, but we all see it, perceive it, approach it through our own cultural lenses, so to speak.
(The Blind Men and the Elephant)

While a loss for the side of "Christianity" it shows, in my view, that we still have a longing for God. Even if our own cultural lens obscures who God really is.

I think while they're lumped together, for many there's a difference between "none" and "atheist." For the same reasons people still put down "Christian" out of some sense of obligation, I think a lot of folks are scared to check the "atheist" box. "Unaffiliated" or "none" is a safer-feeling middle ground for some.

It would depend on how you want to classify the "don't care" crowd. I would agree that they are atheist in practice, but truly would not ascribe to atheism as it's means you care to be one.

Macarthur said:

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That's not what Pew says.

The religious landscape of the United States continues to change at a rapid clip. In Pew Research Center telephone surveys conducted in 2018 and 2019, 65% of American adults describe themselves as Christians when asked about their religion, down 12 percentage points over the past decade. Meanwhile, the religiously unaffiliated share of the population, consisting of people who describe their religious identity as atheist, agnostic or "nothing in particular," now stands at 26%, up from 17% in 2009.

https://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/

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There is a clear distinction between the "religiously unaffiliated" and "Nothing in particular" crowd with the atheist crowd. The agnostic/atheist still makes up less than 10%. Some may consider religiosity unimportant, but they are still theists or deists on some level.

I would be willing to bet many of the non atheist/agnostic unaffiliated with classify themselves as "spiritual but not religious". They may have a disdain for religion, but they certainly hold to some level of the metaphysical.

The church will survive because God is real. And I am not a big believer in polls. In my anecdotal experience, Christianity is very much alive in rural America. And even if I was not a believer, I would be an encourager of belief. Having moved to CS, after living in Houston and Beaumont for years, the Christian influence makes everything better. People are nicer, work harder, etc.

Guess that's where we differ. Growing up in rural Texas I've found college station and then the cities Ive lived in after to be much friendlier even as religion has become less and less important to the people around me.

Beer Baron said:

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I think while they're lumped together, for many there's a difference between "none" and "atheist." For the same reasons people still put down "Christian" out of some sense of obligation, I think a lot of folks are scared to check the "atheist" box. "Unaffiliated" or "none" is a safer-feeling middle ground for some.

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I think the word "atheist" has a connotation of "You have to be a dick to everyone who doesn't agree with you" (attributed to Richard Dawkins in South Park) that a lot of people want to avoid.

"Christian" certainly has more of that connotation too these days. Combine those things and I think it explains some of the migration to the "none" category.

The only thing changing this fast is the obesity rate. The only conclusion I can reach is that people are leaving the church and becoming fat. Correlation = causation, amirite?

I think there's something to this.

dermdoc said:

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The church will survive because God is real. And I am not a big believer in polls. In my anecdotal experience, Christianity is very much alive in rural America. And even if I was not a believer, I would be an encourager of belief. Having moved to CS, after living in Houston and Beaumont for years, the Christian influence makes everything better. People are nicer, work harder, etc.

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God is real? How do you know that? "Anecdotal evidence" ? Christians are nicer? work harder? I think you are confusing what you wish with what is true.

mesocosm said:

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dermdoc said:

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The church will survive because God is real. And I am not a big believer in polls. In my anecdotal experience, Christianity is very much alive in rural America. And even if I was not a believer, I would be an encourager of belief. Having moved to CS, after living in Houston and Beaumont for years, the Christian influence makes everything better. People are nicer, work harder, etc.

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God is real? How do you know that? "Anecdotal evidence" ? Christians are nicer? work harder? I think you are confusing what you wish with what is true.

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Agree. W all due respect, Dr, that's kinda nonsense.

I live in a suburbia type of area and it's as Jesusy as it gets. I don't care...doesn't bother me...people are very nice...

94chem said:

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The only thing changing this fast is the obesity rate. The only conclusion I can reach is that people are leaving the church and becoming fat. Correlation = causation, amirite?

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when's the last time you looked at the average pastor?

mesocosm said:

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dermdoc said:

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The church will survive because God is real. And I am not a big believer in polls. In my anecdotal experience, Christianity is very much alive in rural America. And even if I was not a believer, I would be an encourager of belief. Having moved to CS, after living in Houston and Beaumont for years, the Christian influence makes everything better. People are nicer, work harder, etc.

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God is real? How do you know that? "Anecdotal evidence" ? Christians are nicer? work harder? I think you are confusing what you wish with what is true.

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We can know God is real through several ways. Divine revelation is one of them. We can also come to the rational conclusion as well. Bonaventure and Al-Ghazali used the Kalam cosmological Argument. Aquinas used other arguments in his 5 ways. Even Aristotle's "un-moved mover" all point to the existence of God.

Moreover, if one is more behaviorist in their viewpoint. Christians are called to practie what they preach "Faith without works is dead" as an apostle once said. So the habituation of acting in a "good" way because Christians are tethered to a firm ground of morality, in theory, would also lead to Christians being "Nicer".

It seems the movement is going from some sort of religious affiliation to total indifference to spiritual beliefs. It's not that people are outright rejecting God, they are simply not even thinking or caring about it.

Just feels like we are so busy that we are losing the meaning and value of everything.

Macarthur said:

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mesocosm said:

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dermdoc said:

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The church will survive because God is real. And I am not a big believer in polls. In my anecdotal experience, Christianity is very much alive in rural America. And even if I was not a believer, I would be an encourager of belief. Having moved to CS, after living in Houston and Beaumont for years, the Christian influence makes everything better. People are nicer, work harder, etc.

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God is real? How do you know that? "Anecdotal evidence" ? Christians are nicer? work harder? I think you are confusing what you wish with what is true.

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Agree. W all due respect, Dr, that's kinda nonsense.

I live in a suburbia type of area and it's as Jesusy as it gets. I don't care...doesn't bother me...people are very nice...

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No offense taken at all. If you are not a believer, it seems foolish. But I can tell the difference. On the whole, believers impart somewhat of a sacrificial spirit. They are nicer, at least seem to care, etc. My staff and I have noticed a change for the better since we started offering prayers to our patients. The whole atmosphere is better/

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Agree. W all due respect, Dr, that's kinda nonsense.

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I don't think derm was making any crazy statements. When we talk about something like this, sometimes it can be done in such a way by believers that it makes it seem like God doesn't exist. Derm was just stating the obvious, in a way.

I think this is great news. I know a lot of "cultural" Baptists, Methodists, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, etc who are what they are purely due to circumstances of birth. But most denominations received their start because of spiritual crises and were energized by opposition. Sooner rather later we will find out what it means and what it costs to be Christians.

UTExan said:

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I think this is great news. I know a lot of "cultural" Baptists, Methodists, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, etc who are what they are purely due to circumstances of birth. But most denominations received their start because of spiritual crises and were energized by opposition. Sooner rather later we will find out what it means and what it costs to be Christians.

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Agree. Wheat and chaff.

dermdoc said:

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The church will survive because God is real. And I am not a big believer in polls. In my anecdotal experience, Christianity is very much alive in rural America. And even if I was not a believer, I would be an encourager of belief. Having moved to CS, after living in Houston and Beaumont for years, the Christian influence makes everything better. People are nicer, work harder, etc.

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That is not true and you know it. Why do you say crap like that for? If you say it over and over and over again does that make it true for you?

Well, your post helps prove doc's point.

America has a long history of religious booms and busts. Before WW2 Christianity was in complete decline (and in the midst of the fundamentalist-modernist debate), and in 1920 less than 50% of the country "attended any church".

In 1929 Literary Digest noted that only one man out of nine regularly attended church:
http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/1920s_church_attendance_declines_1920s_church-attendance_records#.XcIvKy2ZOqA

If you don't like the current trends just wait a few decades and they'll be going back the other way.