If you don't hear from me again, look up the meaning of "natsal" (H5337).

How long until we need to learn more about National Attitudes on Sex?

Don't know about that, but Yom Kippur starts tomorrow evening.

https://www.morfix.co.il/%D7%A0%D7%A6%D7%9C

Hey, WAL, I can't remember... where are you from?

I'm trying to figure out where someone worships in the Dallas area and their beliefs seem somewhat similar to yours. I'm wanting to learn more about exactly what this person believes, but I'm struggling a little.. kinda delicate situation.

I'm in Houston. I think it was Bracy who used to post on here as well, but he had some Rabbinic teachings that we disagree with. I believe his synagogue was Sar Shalom in the Fort Worth area.

Correction: It looks like Sar Shalom is north of Dallas.

Google shows these two others in the Dallas area that have brief statements about what they believe:

http://baruchhashemsynagogue.org/?page_id=4

https://batzion.org/about-us/

However, I'm sure these statements of faith probably won't answer a lot of your specific questions about their beliefs. The best Messianic Apologetic source I know of is this book here:

https://www.amazon.com/These-Things-Should-Have-Done/dp/1457558998

It probably explains a lot of what your Messianic friend believes better than they can explain it themselves.

We find two frequent themes among the "Messianic" community that we disagree with. The first is called the "Two House" or "Ephraim" movement. This has its roots in British Israelism and Herbert Armstrong's World Wide Church of God splinter groups in the US. The premise is that Europeans (British and Danes in particular) came from descendants of the 10 lost tribes of Israel and are, therefore, "people of the promise" in scripture. These people tend to be slightly anti-Semitic. The scriptural reasoning for their beliefs are tenuous at best and fall completely apart now that we have DNA testing and can prove the British and Dan's, while possibly having some Jewish intermarriages from the diaspora, are not of Semitic origins. Given that, it's astonishing to me that people can still continue to believe this. (a corollary to this is the whole Black Israelite movement, which fails the same DNA test).

The second problem we frequently encounter is one of Jewish Rabbinic elitism. And from reading Baruch HaShem's web page, they probably fall under that category. My congregation accepts many Jewish traditions as long as they don't contradict scripture and especially when Yeshua and the Apostles taught against such Rabbinic practices. One example of this is where the Rabbinic Messianic community observers the Passover on the 15th of Nisan as most Jews do instead of the 14 of Nisan as scripture says and as Yeshua clearly did in His "Lord's Supper."

Earlier this year I was having a conversation with a leader of a Rabbinic Messianic congregation (a Spanish one, although that has no bearing on the point), and I asked him the following:

If I presented to you someone who denied the divinity of Yeshau (if not his actual existence as a real historical person), believed most, if not all, the miracles attributed to him were made up later by his followers, and believed that much of what is attributed to his teachings was in error according to the Torah, would you put that person up as a teacher in your congregation?

His answer was "Of course not." But I said that's exactly what the Rabbis of the Talmud are, so why do you cling to their teachings and use those as instructions over your congregation? That seemed to stun him for a bit and he had no response. Maybe I planted a seed there.

Quote:

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The second problem we frequently encounter is one of Jewish Rabbinic elitism. And from reading Baruch HaShem's web page, they probably fall under that category. My congregation accepts many Jewish traditions as long as they don't contradict scripture and especially when Yeshua and the Apostles taught against such Rabbinic practices. One example of this is where the Rabbinic Messianic community observers the Passover on the 15th of Nisan as most Jews do instead of the 14 of Nisan as scripture says and as Yeshua clearly did in His "Lord's Supper."

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I've noticed this a bit as well. I think it stems from the very nature of Rabbinism and Judaism. You can read the Mishnah and the Talmud and find all kinds of contradictory opinions on Scripture and practice. However, that contradiction does not percolate down into Jewish observances. For instance, not working on the Sabbath. Determining the definition of work is a philosophical question, and that sort of discussion is seen in the Oral Torah. However, there ends up a practical consensus about what is work and what is not work. The observance is not seen as completely right or completely wrong, but it is seen as completely Jewish. In that the commandment could have any number of legitimate fulfillments, but this is the Jewish way to observe the commandment. So the Written Torah teaches the commandments, and the Oral Torah teaches how the Jewish people interpret and follow those commandments. That particular observance becomes part of the Jewish identity. And since Jewish identity is more ideologic than ethnic, these specific interpretations and observances become the foundation of what it means to be Jewish.

So now you get into Messianic Judaism, which is supposedly Judaism that confirms the Messiah as Jesus. As long as the movement wants to identify with Judaism, it will be attached to Jewish interpretations and observances. That is the core of what it means to be Jewish. Once you start to break from the traditions then the link to Judaism becomes more and more tenuous

I find the whole subject fascinating to be honest. I didnt know it was a thing until you and agie.. then we have yet another type(?) In what this family believes. I know they are very anti "church" so I don't think they have a set aside building, but I could be wrong.. and the lead guy's name is Michael Thigpen (no idea on his preferred title)

Christians and Jews


I was listening to Amir tsarfati speak about how as Christians we should be teaching Jesus to the Jews.

his message concerning the time we are living now is on the verge of the first Gog and Magog war but he really gets into the time span between Daniel 69 and 70 week and the time of the gentile being fulfilled. Once the rapture happens, the 70 week begins with God dealing with Israel.

Take a look, u might enjoy it.

Not to be too picky, but I believe we should not preach Jesus to the Jews, because Jesus is described by his followers as a Torah breaking sinner who violated the Sabbath, declared all foods clean, waived away the Law against adultery and violated many other Old Testament commands. We should be preaching Yeshua to the Jews, because Yeshua was a perfect keeper of the Torah.

As for Gog and Magog, he seems to accept that Revelation 20 occurs later, which it does if you believe in a real 1000 year reign of Yeshua (which I do), when in verse "when the thousand years were complete". That is, the God and Magog war is at the end of the millennial kingdom, not at the beginning.

However, he asserts that the Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38 is another event involving them at the beginning of the millennial kingdom. While, I see many repeating patterns in scripture, I don't see this one as he asserts.

He claims Ezekiel 37 is already fulfilled in our day, so that the Gog and Magog war of Ezekiel 38 must be in our near future. However, Ezekiel 37 clearly speaks of the resurrection, which hasn't happened yet. It also claims the Israeli people will recognize their Messiah, which they haven't.

Ezekiel 37:24 says "My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them" This points to Yeshau ruling over them, which I believe will happen in the millennial kingdom; but not before. It also says His sanctuary (i.e. temple) will be in the midst of them, which has not happened.

Then Ezekiel 38 say Israel is living in a land of peace with unguarded cities, and he claims that is already happening. I just don't see that. And this doesn't fit the "Time of Jacob's trouble" that would be happening before the beginning of the millennial kingdom (i.e. the time he claims we're in now).

So, to me, both Ezekiel 37-38 and Revelation 20 are speaking of the same Gog and Magog "thing" that occurs at the end of the thousand year period just as Revelation 20 says.

I believe there may be some prophetic fulfilments in possibly a few generations timeframe, but the God and Magog wars are not one of them.

Win At Life said:

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Not to be too picky, but I believe we should not preach Jesus to the Jews, because Jesus is described by his followers as a Torah breaking sinner who violated the Sabbath, declared all foods clean, waived away the Law against adultery and violated many other Old Testament commands. We should be preaching Yeshua to the Jews, because Yeshua was a perfect keeper of the Torah.

As for Gog and Magog, he seems to accept that Revelation 20 occurs later, which it does if you believe in a real 1000 year reign of Yeshua (which I do), when in verse "when the thousand years were complete". That is, the God and Magog war is at the end of the millennial kingdom, not at the beginning.

However, he asserts that the Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38 is another event involving them at the beginning of the millennial kingdom. While, I see many repeating patterns in scripture, I don't see this one as he asserts.

He claims Ezekiel 37 is already fulfilled in our day, so that the Gog and Magog war of Ezekiel 38 must be in our near future. However, Ezekiel 37 clearly speaks of the resurrection, which hasn't happened yet. It also claims the Israeli people will recognize their Messiah, which they haven't.

Ezekiel 37:24 says "My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them" This points to Yeshau ruling over them, which I believe will happen in the millennial kingdom; but not before. It also says His sanctuary (i.e. temple) will be in the midst of them, which has not happened.

Then Ezekiel 38 say Israel is living in a land of peace with unguarded cities, and he claims that is already happening. I just don't see that. And this doesn't fit the "Time of Jacob's trouble" that would be happening before the beginning of the millennial kingdom (i.e. the time he claims we're in now).

So, to me, both Ezekiel 37-38 and Revelation 20 are speaking of the same Gog and Magog "thing" that occurs at the end of the thousand year period just as Revelation 20 says.

I believe there may be some prophetic fulfilments in possibly a few generations timeframe, but the God and Magog wars are not one of them.

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U r being picky but I understand the message and would agree with that thought process per their mindset. Names matter.

Ezekiel 37 speaks of the resurrection of the nation of Israel. Clearly that has happened and in just 71 years, the nation of Israel has become one of the most powerful nations on earth. not sure how u can ignore the scattering of the Jews and their 2000 yrs of wandering the earth plus the Holocaust just before 1948 where millions were executed. Dry bones represent the return of the Jews to their homeland.

I tend to believe that Imir has a pretty good argument per the clip I posted. I also believe Trump is pulling us out of the Middle East and that includes protecting Israel. Now, we know Israel has stood on its on for decades but we were always on stand by if needed, not anymore.

What is your churches stand on the rapture of the church?

Alright I have a lot to write here. However -

Question for R&P Staff:
Can I post my opinions, which are 100% aligned with very long-standing Catholic doctrine?

I would like to do the following:

1). Define the terms "Jewish," "Semitic," and "the people Israel."
2). Discuss the massive importance of 70 AD.
3). Discuss the prophecy of Jesus Christ concerning the Temple, as recorded in the Gospel.
4). Discuss the post-70 (re-)definitions of the following, from the perspective of the Apostolic (Catholic-Orthodox) faith: Temple, Sacrifice, priesthood, Ark.

Politics Staff strongly advised me to stay away from such topics. In my opinion, it would be appropriate to state my opinions concerning these issues on this thread.

Please advise.

And to again be very clear, I will NOT deviate from Catholic doctrine.

um doing so on the Religion and Philosophy board is v different than on politics.. I'm guessing it wasn't the doctrine that was the issue, but the deviation.

Not sure about that. I've emailed Staff.

Ubitag said:

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Win At Life said:

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Not to be too picky, but I believe we should not preach Jesus to the Jews, because Jesus is described by his followers as a Torah breaking sinner who violated the Sabbath, declared all foods clean, waived away the Law against adultery and violated many other Old Testament commands. We should be preaching Yeshua to the Jews, because Yeshua was a perfect keeper of the Torah.

As for Gog and Magog, he seems to accept that Revelation 20 occurs later, which it does if you believe in a real 1000 year reign of Yeshua (which I do), when in verse "when the thousand years were complete". That is, the God and Magog war is at the end of the millennial kingdom, not at the beginning.

However, he asserts that the Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38 is another event involving them at the beginning of the millennial kingdom. While, I see many repeating patterns in scripture, I don't see this one as he asserts.

He claims Ezekiel 37 is already fulfilled in our day, so that the Gog and Magog war of Ezekiel 38 must be in our near future. However, Ezekiel 37 clearly speaks of the resurrection, which hasn't happened yet. It also claims the Israeli people will recognize their Messiah, which they haven't.

Ezekiel 37:24 says "My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them" This points to Yeshau ruling over them, which I believe will happen in the millennial kingdom; but not before. It also says His sanctuary (i.e. temple) will be in the midst of them, which has not happened.

Then Ezekiel 38 say Israel is living in a land of peace with unguarded cities, and he claims that is already happening. I just don't see that. And this doesn't fit the "Time of Jacob's trouble" that would be happening before the beginning of the millennial kingdom (i.e. the time he claims we're in now).

So, to me, both Ezekiel 37-38 and Revelation 20 are speaking of the same Gog and Magog "thing" that occurs at the end of the thousand year period just as Revelation 20 says.

I believe there may be some prophetic fulfilments in possibly a few generations timeframe, but the God and Magog wars are not one of them.

---

U r being picky but I understand the message and would agree with that thought process per their mindset. Names matter.

Ezekiel 37 speaks of the resurrection of the nation of Israel. Clearly that has happened and in just 71 years, the nation of Israel has become one of the most powerful nations on earth. not sure how u can ignore the scattering of the Jews and their 2000 yrs of wandering the earth plus the Holocaust just before 1948 where millions were executed. Dry bones represent the return of the Jews to their homeland.

I tend to believe that Imir has a pretty good argument per the clip I posted. I also believe Trump is pulling us out of the Middle East and that includes protecting Israel. Now, we know Israel has stood on its on for decades but we were always on stand by if needed, not anymore.

What is your churches stand on the rapture of the church?

---

We might be getting crossed messages here. I believe the re-establishment of Israel as a nation is very important and a fulfillment of many biblical prophecies. I also believe there are numerous prophecies that will be fulfilled during the "time of Jacob's trouble" leading up to the return of Messiah, but I'm just saying I'm not convinced the God and Magog war is one of them as Revelation clearly says it's after the 1000 year Kingdom.

As for the Natsal (rapture, or snatching away), scripture clearly speaks of it. What are you asking specifically? As for the pre-trib, post trib debate, I believe Yeshua's pointing to Noah is significant. Noah was "snatched away" seven days prior to the flood, which would be consistent with a natsal happening at the beginning of the last 7-year period. Another example from Yeshua's pointing to Noah is how few there were who took part in the "snatching away" and how the world went on for seven days without noticing according to Yeshua. That would seem to contradict the "Left Behind" frenzy and most other predictions about it.

Win At Life said:

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Redstone, please give me the wheel settings on your enigma machine so I can decipher your posts.

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also, I'm guessing the name Michael Thigpen doesn't ring any bells for you?

No. Redstone. We are not allowing you to 'hold forth' on your very special position regarding 'the Jews' - we've been clear about that. You may have noodled out some specific nuance in your position, but it sure stinks like anti-semitism to most everyone else. We aren't allowing it. We won't be a community who allows that kind thing on any of our boards.

You emailed the moderator and received the same answer.

Gig 'em!

Thank you for the reply.

I replied, asking again for clarity regarding my specific question:

Is it permissible to post the (clear and easily verifiable) definitions and positions of the Catholic Church?

Stay on that topic and you will be fine. Check your email.

I'll say this..no matter what forum Redstone is on, he sure makes a memorable impression.

Permission granted to proceed!

From the perspective of the Apostolic faith (Catholic / Orthodox) :

"Jewish" is a theological term, NOT a racial one. Racism is anti-Christian - to be condemned. Likewise, "Semitic" is primarily an ethnic term of language (ethnicity being shared characteristics).
This is not to say that a definition of "Jewish" could never be "racial," especially if race is understood as "extended family partly inbred," (diseases, for example, can be better understood via population genetics) only that the understanding here is THEOLOGICAL CONSTRUCT.

70 AD is the essential date. Apostolic Christianity understands itself, therefore, to be older than Judaism.

So, the life of Israel Zolli, chief rabbi of Rome until becoming a Catholic in 1946, is instructive...More tomorrow when not on mobile.

Thank you Staff.

AgLiving06 said:

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I'll say this..no matter what forum Redstone is on, he sure makes a memorable impression.

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He totally cracks me up. Very, very different posts depending on the forum number.

Red, You are not going to find many supporters for your take on this subject, brother, but I do want to hear you out. Again.

In you opinion:
Is the rebirth of the nation of Israel in 1948 the parable Christ spoke of per Mathew 24:32-34?
Is Psalms 90:10 speaking of the life span of that generation?

Mathew24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
24:23 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
say unto you,
24:34 This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Psalms90:10 Our days may come to seventy years, or eighty, if our strength endures;yet the best of them are but trouble and sorrow. (only psalms Moses wrote).

The Gog and Magog war happens after the rapture, that we agree on.

I believe, as many believe, that there are 2 wars, and currently the world stage is set for the first one involving the main players against Israel......the nations of Turkey, Iran, and Russia. These evil countries are currently on the border of Israel. Damascus is not a place u want to invest in real estate, it soon will be no more.


Along with Noah, there will be many of us in heaven.

Jesus was convicted and hung on a cross for 3 things:
Claiming to be the son of God.
Hanging out with sinners.
Healing on the Sabbath.

I cant move a mountain with my faith therefore my faith is less than a mustard seed yet I am saved by the grace of my lord Jesus Christ....how great is that.

I am suppose to love my neighbor as myself and Christ described "love" in a parable with the good Samaritan yet each day I pass the homeless. There is no way I can love my neighbor like a "good Samaritan" should, there are too many needing help. I would put my family on the street if I did that. Yet I am saved by the cross...that is the amazing truth.





Exciting times we live in.

Some shorter posts

All from the GENERAL Apostolic Churches point of view, as colored by my personal preterism (there are ambiguities and some room for interpretation, and obviously plenty of disagreement among Catholic / Orthodox):

"The people Israel" refers to those - spiritually - in the Kingdom of Christ, a spiritual kingdom. The "best" way to participate is through the Sacraments, although Christ (LOGOS) granted His graces before Incarnation and responds to all those who cry out to Him.

Therefore, when Christ calls the physically short, rich man down from the tree, so that He may dine with him.....a Kingdom member.

When some Temple leaders called themselves holy, as members of the "seed of Abraham" (a racial claim imo) .... and Christ rebuked them, saying they must know Him .....

We see this all throughout the Gospel of St. John in particular, and in 1 Thessalonians ch. 2.....

So, who are the people Israel? Those - OF ANY BACKGROUND - who accept the Incarnate Logos ..... as St. John preached to the Greeks (St. Paul didn't do so well there as a preacher, being steeped so heavily in Temple Judaism).

Israel is not a country or kingdom, and not a racial claim (a claim very strongly rebuked by Christ).
The people Israel, the followers of Abraham and Isaac, are those who follow the Incarnate Logos.

Therefore,

who has the Temple, the Sacrifice, the priesthood, the Ark?

The Apostolic .... the body, the Eucharist, Apostolic priesthood, St. Mary

70 AD - when blood literally filled the streets of Jerusalem and the Temple was decimated, after a 3 year siege - is a massively important religious date, for many reasons.

One reason is the radical re-definitions of terms that came about. To take one essential religious term:

Judaism

- before Christ, who was born and died a Jew, we can see the contours and definitions in the Torah. In my opinion, these point toward Christ, who is the fulfillment of the law - He is literally the Law.

- from baptism to His death and resurrection - the term was in flux. Thus the awkward phrasings of the Gospels in this context, such as Jews writing and saying "for fear of the Jews."

- at the foot of the Cross - a decision.....Barabbas, the revolutionary leader against the Romans, or Jesus of Nazareth?

After 70 - the decision is stark. The definition threads are no longer "in flux", as from 33 to 70.
Christians - many Jews and many pagans - unite to worship Christ.

Judaism....becomes, by necessary response to Titus and his destruction - which Christ predicted exactly -
the beginnings of what we see today, for all its great diversity as a religion.

How, "Hal Lindsey" of you. He's been counting generations and ticking clocks from 1948 since the 70's. Although I see 1948 as a monumental date in history and prophesied by scripture, I don't see strong scriptural support for any generational "clock" to start ticking at that moment.

Frankly, if you want to look for a clock to start ticking, this is the most direct one given in scripture.

Daniel 9:25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

This relatively accurately predicted Yeshua's first coming, so why not His second as well?

Balfour Decree to Restore Israel in 1917

Of course, that would put His return far enough in our future so as to be not very entertaining for us (or profitable for those peddling the Word of God).

Not only that verse.....

The Sad Reality of our spirit health not only in this country but around the world.


Keep walking with God and be prepared.

Seed of the woman


In Dec of 1976, a friend of mine was convinced that Christ was coming in the spring of '77. I told him to read Hal's book, we were decades away. Didn't convince him.

In the spring of 1977, he was killed in a car wreck......

I am Leary about predicted dates but I watch the current world events dealing with Israel quite amazing.