Who can endure the heat of his anger?

4,268 Views | 75 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Zobel
gordo97
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Win At Life said:

gordo97 said:

Damn y'all are depressing.... here I keep thinking about the parable of the prodigal son where both kids turn out to be jerks, but the father loves them dearly anyway.... and y'all just keep saying how God may crush me in the end after all cause He will do what He will do


Did the prodigal son repent and return to the father? Was that the son's decision and action? Or did the father send out an army to find the son and drag him back against his will?



Calvinism is dead!!!! Thank you!!!!
dermdoc
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gordo97 said:

Win At Life said:

gordo97 said:

Damn y'all are depressing.... here I keep thinking about the parable of the prodigal son where both kids turn out to be jerks, but the father loves them dearly anyway.... and y'all just keep saying how God may crush me in the end after all cause He will do what He will do


Did the prodigal son repent and return to the father? Was that the son's decision and action? Or did the father send out an army to find the son and drag him back against his will?



Calvinism is dead!!!! Thank you!!!!


Nope. They will say that God made the Prodigal Son repent.
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chimpanzee
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dermdoc said:

gordo97 said:

Win At Life said:

gordo97 said:

Damn y'all are depressing.... here I keep thinking about the parable of the prodigal son where both kids turn out to be jerks, but the father loves them dearly anyway.... and y'all just keep saying how God may crush me in the end after all cause He will do what He will do


Did the prodigal son repent and return to the father? Was that the son's decision and action? Or did the father send out an army to find the son and drag him back against his will?



Calvinism is dead!!!! Thank you!!!!


Nope. They will say that God made the Prodigal Son repent.
If theology involves analyzing a 4-D parable, I don't think I'm cut out for it.
diehard03
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Quote:

Nope. They will say that God made the Prodigal Son repent.

No, no, no. Clearly, God created him such a way that he was always going to repent.
dermdoc
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You are correct sir.
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ramblin_ag02
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It seems to me that a lot of the OSAS, free will, and semi-Pelagian arguments based in the NT pretty much disappear with one minor change in understanding of the word salvation. After all, what are we being saved from if not eternal punishment (however you wish to define that). And at what point do we suffer eternal punishment? At death or just after. So logically, you are not saved until death. If you look at salvation is something that doesn't happen until you die, then nearly all the contradictions fall away. You just have to scrap the idea that you are saved at any specific point during your life. Which makes some sense. After all, I am not in immediate peril of eternal punishment, so saying that Christ has already saved me from eternal punishment doesn't really make any sense. He won't save me until I am in peril of the thing He is saving me from.

If you look at NT wording, nearly all the times salvation is something that will happen or is currently happening and will continue. For instance "those who endure to the end will be saved" or "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God". Again, this makes sense if you are saved at death, but it doesn't make any sense if you think salvation happens at the time of conversion or confirmation. All of the "no one can snatch them out of my hand" versus start to match up with the "endure till the end" verses if they are both referencing salvation at death. It also lines up pretty seemlessly with the OT, like Ezekiel talking about wicked men repenting or righteous men breaking bad.
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Zobel
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dermdoc said:

And I guess my problem is when Scriptures about the wrath of God are posted without context. Jesus's blood has protected us from that wrath and I think it is sinful and harmful to not believe that. Now, are we supposed to keep sinning after the gift of grace, of course not. But we are always in the palm of hand.


I think this is a tough understanding, based on some presuppositions.

The wrath of God is love and is always chastisement for the purpose of reconciliation. Both wrath and renewal come from the face or presence of God in the scriptures. He is a consuming fire, and the difference is on our end, not His. Jesus blood protecting us from the wrath of God is nonsense - that's saying Jesus is protecting us from the love of God, or illogically from God Himself. Jesus is God; the very same essence and divinity of the Father, the exact icon of the Father. How can God protect us from Himself?? Or as Christ put it "How can you say "show us the Father"? If you have seen Me you have seen the Father. I and the Father are one."

The act of the Cross, the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ is not a vicarious punishment, it's not a wrath sponge. It's a total expiation, that by His righteousness He becomes sin, and in His righteousness sin is destroyed. By His righteousness we become the righteousness of God.

That last bit is the key to this. It's ontological, not juridical. We aren't (merely) reckoned righteous, it's not a game. We don't get (merely) declared righteous, the unrighteous cannot be in the presence of God. He teaches us that to enter the kingdom our righteousness has to exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees and when St Peter says who can do it Jesus says "no one." That's the point. No one can be saved alone but only through grace and participation in His righteousness. But that participation and participation in sin are exclusive. As St John says, you will know by what they do, a person who loves sin, who doesn't love others, doesn't love God or even know Him. So through His righteousness we become righteous, really actually righteous.

So then where is wrath? On what? But also, then where is work? What act is required? Everything and nothing. And that's the end of it.
 
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