Nahum 1:5 The mountains quake before him;
the hills melt;
the earth heaves before him,
the world and all who dwell in it.
6 Who can stand before his indignation?
Who can endure the heat of his anger?
His wrath is poured out like fire,
and the rocks are broken into pieces by him.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Nahum 1:5 The mountains quake before him;
the hills melt;
the earth heaves before him,
the world and all who dwell in it.
6 Who can stand before his indignation?
Who can endure the heat of his anger?
His wrath is poured out like fire,
and the rocks are broken into pieces by him.

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We can because we have been cleansed by the blood of Christ. Now we can be purged, regenerated, etc. but Christ is our salvation. By the Cross we are saved. God promised us that and I believe Him.

Romans 10:13
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love for us, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Jer. 33:8 I will cleanse them from all the guilt of their sin against me, and I will forgive all the guilt of their sin and rebellion against me.

And then? Vs. 9 They shall fear and tremble because of all the good and all the prosperity I provide for it.

Amen.

I think that fear and tremble there means awe and thankfulness at God's abundant grace. To me, the OT is a repetitive reminder of God's redemptive love.

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I think that fear and tremble there means awe and thankfulness at God's abundant grace.

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I think fear and tremble means fear and tremble. I think there's too many direct teachings of Christ remove the "actual fear" element from it.

I think we also undersell what it means to be "in Christ".

diehard03 said:

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I think that fear and tremble there means awe and thankfulness at God's abundant grace.

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I think fear and tremble means fear and tremble. I think there's too many direct teachings of Christ remove the "actual fear" element from it.

I think we also undersell what it means to be "in Christ".

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Fair enough. Why would one fear and tremble when God blesses them like the verse says. And I partially agree with you at the laxity in interpreting fearfulness of God, however, I also think one can be biased the other way because they are afraid of portraying God as without wrath, Difficult interpretation for me.

diehard03 said:

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I think that fear and tremble there means awe and thankfulness at God's abundant grace.

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I think fear and tremble means fear and tremble. I think there's too many direct teachings of Christ remove the "actual fear" element from it.

I think we also undersell what it means to be "in Christ".

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And how are we underselling what it means to be "in Christ"? Sounds like you are saying that grace alone is not enough for salvation? Are or you talking about sanctification?

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Why would one fear and tremble when God blesses them like the verse says.

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His majesty, his presence shines a light onto darkness and we realize what we are (Job 42:5), it is a proper response (Ps. 2:11).

And I partially agree with you at the laxity in interpreting fearfulness of God, however, I also think one can be biased the other way because they are afraid of portraying God as without wrath,

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Difficult interpretation for me.

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I know. Thank you for grappling with tough Scripture with me. (not against me, we are on the same team)

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Why would one fear and tremble when God blesses them like the verse says.

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I just think we get pulled in a few different directions here because we box ourselves in corners with trying to understand the nature of God. In the end, i think it's merely a matter of holding seemingly-conflicting views on our heads, and being ok with that. It's ok that God is good, and is for us, and wants to bless us...and that he has a wrath that must be contended with.

I think we should not lose heart in the end. The Disciple on whom God built his Church was once called "Satan" (get behind me, Satan), denied him 3 times in his hour of need, and fell asleep while he should have been praying.

I rest in the finished work of Christ.

chuckd said:

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Why would one fear and tremble when God blesses them like the verse says.

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His majesty, his presence shines a light onto darkness and we realize what we are (Job 42:5), it is a proper response (Ps. 2:11).

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I feel more love and awe but that is just me. And not meaning to be argumentative. I believe God is omniscient and unknowable with our human minds but I believe Jesus is the revelation of His character so that we may at least partly understand,

And remember this is the same God who rejoices over us with singing Zephaniah 3:17.

dermdoc said:

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And remember this is the same God who rejoices over us with singing Zephaniah 3:17.

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rejoice with trembling. Ps. 2:11

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I rest in the finished work of Christ.

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I'm just trying to go by he said and what he did.

chuckd said:

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dermdoc said:

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And remember this is the same God who rejoices over us with singing Zephaniah 3:17.

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rejoice with trembling. Ps. 2:11

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So I am curious, how do you rejoice with trembling? Serious question. I need to go look at the translation and will post later.

dermdoc said:

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chuckd said:

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dermdoc said:

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And remember this is the same God who rejoices over us with singing Zephaniah 3:17.

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rejoice with trembling. Ps. 2:11

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So I am curious, how do you rejoice with trembling? Serious question. I need to go look at the translation and will post later.

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For if God shall come to you indeed, and visit you with the forgiveness of sins, that visit removeth the guilt, but increaseth the sense of thy filth, and the sense of this that God hath forgiven a filthy sinner, will make thee both rejoice and tremble. -John Bunyan

chuckd said:

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dermdoc said:

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chuckd said:

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dermdoc said:

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And remember this is the same God who rejoices over us with singing Zephaniah 3:17.

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rejoice with trembling. Ps. 2:11

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So I am curious, how do you rejoice with trembling? Serious question. I need to go look at the translation and will post later.

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For if God shall come to you indeed, and visit you with the forgiveness of sins, that visit removeth the guilt, but increaseth the sense of thy filth, and the sense of this that God hath forgiven a filthy sinner, will make thee both rejoice and tremble. -John Bunyan

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Sure, but it is still joyful. I know some folks who never get past the guilt stage. And that is sad. Wonderful grace. God loves all of us,

Roman 8:1

And I prefer George MacDonald to Bunyan but neither are writers of Scripture.

diehard03 said:

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I rest in the finished work of Christ.

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I'm just trying to go by he said and what he did.

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So what did Christ say that disagrees with what I said?

Do y'all feel like you have a personal relationship with Christ? Because the Christ I know sure seems different than the Christ y'all portray. I feel accepted, loved, redeemed, free of guilt, joyful, and peace. What do y'all feel? I am very curious.

Though, as I have studied and tried, I don't think I'll ever figure it all out or fully understand so I've resigned myself to live in faith and trust what he has spoken to enjoy this life I have been blessed with and look forward to going to a place that will leave us all in awe...What no eye has seen, no ear has heard,
and no human heart has conceived
God has prepared these things for those who love him.

Amen. I think it is good to discuss these things as members of the body of Christ. No anger or acrimony, just discussion. Iron sharpens iron.

And edited to add that when I went through scrupulosity, depression, and anxiety, I decided I was going to read and study everything I could. After much struggle and worsening depression, fear of Hell, and anxiety, the Lord came to me and just said Rest in me, I love you. Best feeling ever. Now I talk freely with Him and He has made me realize I do not have to do anything to earn anything. I do not have to have the exact right theology or read the exact right Bible. All I have to do is trust and obey. And I felt the fear leaving and replaced with love and awe. But that is my testimony. Yours may be different. And that is okay.

dermdoc said:

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chuckd said:

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dermdoc said:

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chuckd said:

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dermdoc said:

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And remember this is the same God who rejoices over us with singing Zephaniah 3:17.

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rejoice with trembling. Ps. 2:11

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So I am curious, how do you rejoice with trembling? Serious question. I need to go look at the translation and will post later.

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For if God shall come to you indeed, and visit you with the forgiveness of sins, that visit removeth the guilt, but increaseth the sense of thy filth, and the sense of this that God hath forgiven a filthy sinner, will make thee both rejoice and tremble. -John Bunyan

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Sure, but it is still joyful. I know some folks who never get past the guilt stage. And that is sad. Wonderful grace. God loves all of us,

Roman 8:1

And I prefer George MacDonald to Bunyan but neither are writers of Scripture.

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2 Cor. 7:1 Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

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So what did Christ say that disagrees with what I said?

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Beatitudes, Sermon on the Mount, many of his parables. I have a hard time looking at his warnings and saying "well, these won't affect me because of Christ's work". (else, why say them at all?)

diehard03 said:

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So what did Christ say that disagrees with what I said?

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Beatitudes, Sermon on the Mount, many of his parables. I have a hard time looking at his warnings and saying "well, these won't affect me because of Christ's work". (else, why say them at all?)

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So you think we have to do works for salvation? And we are not saved by grace and faith alone? Are you Orthodox or Catholic?

And I have found when I rest in Christ I automatically do what the Beatitudes talk about. Not because of me but because of Christ dwelling in me.

dermdoc said:

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diehard03 said:

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So what did Christ say that disagrees with what I said?

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Beatitudes, Sermon on the Mount, many of his parables. I have a hard time looking at his warnings and saying "well, these won't affect me because of Christ's work". (else, why say them at all?)

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So you think we have to do works for salvation? And we are not saved by grace and faith alone? Are you Orthodox or Catholic?

And I have found when I rest in Christ I automatically do what the Beatitudes talk about. Not because of me but because of Christ dwelling in me.

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All the verses above were written by men who were saved by grace through faith.

Ps. 86:11 Teach me your way, O Lord,
that I may walk in your truth;
unite my heart to fear your name.

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So you think we have to do works for salvation? And we are not saved by grace and faith alone? Are you Orthodox or Catholic?

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I think focusing on salvation misses the point. I don't believe I was called to "merely" be saved.

diehard03 said:

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So you think we have to do works for salvation? And we are not saved by grace and faith alone? Are you Orthodox or Catholic?

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I think focusing on salvation misses the point. I don't believe I was called to "merely" be saved.

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Oh I do not either. But I believe salvation is through Christ's blood alone. The problem with any other theology to me brings in man's judgement of what works and how many works are needed. I see this all the time in churches where members judge other members. And that is a very slippery slope and at least to me brings anxiety, uncertainty, and fear.

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Oh I do not either. But I believe salvation is through Christ's blood alone. The problem with any other theology to me brings in man's judgement of what works and how many works are needed. I see this all the time in churches where members judge other members. And that is a very slippery slope and at least to me brings anxiety, uncertainty, and fear.

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Then I guess I don't understand why you brought up salvation then.

Also, Christ himself sowed some of this "anxiety, uncertainty and fear". He told people to gouge out their eyes if it caused them to sin. He told people to follow him without reservations, even if they were delayed by good things (honoring mother and father). He told people that not everyone who followed him would be with him in heaven. He warned people to be ready whenever he comes back because there are consequences for not being ready.

And yes, he said his yoke is easy and his burden is light. And that if you ask, he will give.

I don't pretend to know how it all works together. I just don't think we can explain it all away by changing "fear and trembling" to something else.

I brought up salvation because I was curious if you believe that we are saved by grace alone or not. And you do not have to respond if you do not want to. Just curious. I look at salvation as a completely different thing than works of any sort. I believe Christ did all the work necessary. And also curious if you are Orthodox?

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I brought up salvation because I was curious if you believe that we are saved by grace alone or not. And you do not have to respond if you do not want to. Just curious. I look at salvation as a completely different thing than works of any sort. I believe Christ did all the work necessary. And also curious if you are Orthodox?

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I maybe heading for Orthodox in views, but I reject a lot of the authority claims that seem to be made. I am not a fan of liturgy either.

I, too, believe that Christ did all the work. However, all the warnings of Christ make little sense (to me) if we stop there. I find myself agreeing with Bonheoffer on the cheap grace concept.

I am increasing unsatisfied with trying to parse through my salvation or not because repentance and obedience don't concern themselves with it. While logically I still believe in OSAS, it doesn't seem like Christ is wanting me to be wasting time on it. Either I believe he is good or I do not.

Thanks

And I guess my problem is when Scriptures about the wrath of God are posted without context. Jesus's blood has protected us from that wrath and I think it is sinful and harmful to not believe that. Now, are we supposed to keep sinning after the gift of grace, of course not. But we are always in the palm of hand.

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And I guess my problem is when Scriptures about the wrath of God are posted without context. Jesus's blood has protected us from that wrath and I think it is sinful and harmful to not believe that.

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One cannot remove Romans 5 nor Matthew 25 from the Scriptures. I think it's sinful and harmful to ignore the promises of God AND the warnings he gave us.

So which one is it? Does God love me or does God want to burn me to a crisp?

He wants you to love how much you burn to a crisp.

-Michael Scott