Skillet's John Cooper Reacts to Christian Leaders Renouncing Faith

5,102 Views | 79 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by aggiedad20
Frok
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I thought this reaction from John Cooper was refreshing. And I'll add that I don't think it is shocking that a leader from Hillsong renounced their faith.
https://cogentchristianity.com/2019/08/13/skillets-john-cooper-on-apostasy-among-young-christian-leaders/

Quote:

"Thirdly, there is a common thread running through these leaders/influencers that basically says that "no one else is talking about the REAL stuff." This is just flatly false. I just read today in a renown worship leader's statement, "How could a God of love send people to hell? No one talks about it." As if he is the first person to ask this? Brother, you are not that unique. The church has wrestled with this for 1500 years. Literally. Everybody talks about it. Children talk about it in Sunday school. There's like a billion books written on the topic. Just because you don't get the answer you want doesn't mean that we are unwilling to wrestle with it. We wrestle with scripture until we are transformed by the renewing of our minds.


Amen.


powerbelly
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Quote:

"My conclusion for the church (all of us Christians): We must STOP making worship leaders and thought leaders or influencers or cool people or "relevant" people the most influential people in Christendom.
I think this is very important.
Win At Life
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powerbelly said:


Quote:

"My conclusion for the church (all of us Christians): We must STOP making worship leaders and thought leaders or influencers or cool people or "relevant" people the most influential people in Christendom.
I think this is very important.


Keeping YHWH's Torah has never been popular. It's recorded so all the way back from the beginning of scripture until the present day. There is nothing new under the sun.
AGC
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This is the correct response and best response. Rod Dreher talked about it on AmCon yesterday and posted the lyrics to one of the songs Sampson wrote. They're vapid to say the least. His formation was deficient. Christianity has 'wrestled with' and will continue to 'wrestle with' these things and proper formation will engage it.
powerbelly
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Texaggie7nine
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AGC said:

This is the correct response and best response. Rod Dreher talked about it on AmCon yesterday and posted the lyrics to one of the songs Sampson wrote. They're vapid to say the least. His formation was deficient. Christianity has 'wrestled with' and will continue to 'wrestle with' these things and proper formation will engage it.
They do not wrestle with it except in back rooms and small circles. Whenever I tried to bring the subjects up to fellow Christians of all denominations, most would put up vapid excuses "people choose hell, God doesn't send them" and would stop wanting to talk about it anymore.

It is a comfort issue. They do not want to ever question the thing they believe gives them the most comfort. All religions do this.
7nine
ramblin_ag02
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Many Christians have a somewhat shallow, uncritical faith. Which is fine, not everyone needs to be a theologian, and many of those "shallow" Christians are the most motivated for charity and good works. Nothing wrong with being a "hand" and not an "eye" of the body of Christ. However, it still shouldn't be hard to find someone in pretty much any congregation willing to have a deep discussion on the issue.
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AGC
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Texaggie7nine said:

AGC said:

This is the correct response and best response. Rod Dreher talked about it on AmCon yesterday and posted the lyrics to one of the songs Sampson wrote. They're vapid to say the least. His formation was deficient. Christianity has 'wrestled with' and will continue to 'wrestle with' these things and proper formation will engage it.
They do not wrestle with it except in back rooms and small circles. Whenever I tried to bring the subjects up to fellow Christians of all denominations, most would put up vapid excuses "people choose hell, God doesn't send them" and would stop wanting to talk about it anymore.

It is a comfort issue. They do not want to ever question the thing they believe gives them the most comfort. All religions do this.


The regular attendees that volunteer, run or join community/life groups, and lead at home talk about it and don't shy away (back rooms and small circles as you call them). The ones who only show up for Sundays and outsource teaching their kids to professional Christians struggle and flounder on their own. This is not new, nor does it contradict my point at all. Christianity is 2000 years old. It has been wrestled with. It is being wrestled with. It will be wrestled with. But it has also been conquered through no help of ours.
dermdoc
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Texaggie7nine said:

AGC said:

This is the correct response and best response. Rod Dreher talked about it on AmCon yesterday and posted the lyrics to one of the songs Sampson wrote. They're vapid to say the least. His formation was deficient. Christianity has 'wrestled with' and will continue to 'wrestle with' these things and proper formation will engage it.
They do not wrestle with it except in back rooms and small circles. Whenever I tried to bring the subjects up to fellow Christians of all denominations, most would put up vapid excuses "people choose hell, God doesn't send them" and would stop wanting to talk about it anymore.

It is a comfort issue. They do not want to ever question the thing they believe gives them the most comfort. All religions do this.
CS Lewis believed people choose Hell and he was not a shallow thinker imho.
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Aggrad08
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dermdoc said:

Texaggie7nine said:

AGC said:

This is the correct response and best response. Rod Dreher talked about it on AmCon yesterday and posted the lyrics to one of the songs Sampson wrote. They're vapid to say the least. His formation was deficient. Christianity has 'wrestled with' and will continue to 'wrestle with' these things and proper formation will engage it.
They do not wrestle with it except in back rooms and small circles. Whenever I tried to bring the subjects up to fellow Christians of all denominations, most would put up vapid excuses "people choose hell, God doesn't send them" and would stop wanting to talk about it anymore.

It is a comfort issue. They do not want to ever question the thing they believe gives them the most comfort. All religions do this.
CS Lewis believed people choose Hell and he was not a shallow thinker imho.
He wasn't a shallow thinker he was a clever and thoughtful man, but he did try to justify some shallow beliefs rather unsuccessfully. This is a prime example.
dermdoc
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Or it could be an uncomfortable thought for a non believer. I agree with Lewis.
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Aggrad08
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Nah, it just doesn't hold up to scrutiny, its really one of his weaker attempts. To believe it you have to be able to choose heaven freely anytime after you are dead. To his credit, he at least abandons the notion that people of other religions are necessarily destined for hell, as that's utterly indefensible.

He tries to raise defenses to other objections as well which don't work, he admits that if eternity is defined "as a mere prolongation of time, hell is disproportionate. But then he is running from the definition of eternity used throughout the bible and commonly understood.
dermdoc
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Aggrad08 said:

Nah, it just doesn't hold up to scrutiny, its really one of his weaker attempts. To believe it you have to be able to choose heaven freely anytime after you are dead. To his credit, he at least abandons the notion that people of other religions are necessarily destined for hell, as that's utterly indefensible.

He tries to raise defenses to other objections as well which don't work, he admits that if eternity is defined "as a mere prolongation of time, hell is disproportionate. But then he is running from the definition of eternity used throughout the bible and commonly understood.
It all comes down to whether you believe in a supernatural God who can do anything. Even save people after death. I think the supernatural part is what non believers have a problem with.
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Texaggie7nine
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ramblin_ag02 said:

Many Christians have a somewhat shallow, uncritical faith. Which is fine, not everyone needs to be a theologian, and many of those "shallow" Christians are the most motivated for charity and good works. Nothing wrong with being a "hand" and not an "eye" of the body of Christ. However, it still shouldn't be hard to find someone in pretty much any congregation willing to have a deep discussion on the issue.
The problem is salvation and who is saved is the absolutely most important thing a church could ever be involved in if an actual Hell exists. It should be the number 1 subject at all times. Not just for the most studied to address with a few with questions on it. It should be up front and center.

7nine
Texaggie7nine
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dermdoc said:

Texaggie7nine said:

AGC said:

This is the correct response and best response. Rod Dreher talked about it on AmCon yesterday and posted the lyrics to one of the songs Sampson wrote. They're vapid to say the least. His formation was deficient. Christianity has 'wrestled with' and will continue to 'wrestle with' these things and proper formation will engage it.
They do not wrestle with it except in back rooms and small circles. Whenever I tried to bring the subjects up to fellow Christians of all denominations, most would put up vapid excuses "people choose hell, God doesn't send them" and would stop wanting to talk about it anymore.

It is a comfort issue. They do not want to ever question the thing they believe gives them the most comfort. All religions do this.
CS Lewis believed people choose Hell and he was not a shallow thinker imho.
I held onto his explanation for a long time, too. However, the problem I now see is that he approaches it as an axiom.

The question he is addressing is "why do non believers suffer such a horrible fate as hell?" when the real question should be, "Does an actual place like hell even exist in reality, or is it made up completely?"
7nine
Frok
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Quote:

Whenever I tried to bring the subjects up to fellow Christians of all denominations, most would put up vapid excuses "people choose hell, God doesn't send them" and would stop wanting to talk about it anymore.


This is what my bolded comment is addressing. Is it that people don't talk about it or that you didn't get the answer you like?
Texaggie7nine
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dermdoc said:

Aggrad08 said:

Nah, it just doesn't hold up to scrutiny, its really one of his weaker attempts. To believe it you have to be able to choose heaven freely anytime after you are dead. To his credit, he at least abandons the notion that people of other religions are necessarily destined for hell, as that's utterly indefensible.

He tries to raise defenses to other objections as well which don't work, he admits that if eternity is defined "as a mere prolongation of time, hell is disproportionate. But then he is running from the definition of eternity used throughout the bible and commonly understood.
It all comes down to whether you believe in a supernatural God who can do anything. Even save people after death. I think the supernatural part is what non believers have a problem with.
I have no problem believing in supernatural things, if there is good evidence for it.

To me there is good evidence that this universe and life as we know it must have been designed in some higher way.

The problem many who I know, as well as myself who have fallen out of faith in Bible believing Christianity is usually one of the notion of contradiction in the idea of a God that is "love" and an eternal hell that is suffering. Of course some also fall out because they have a problem with evil and suffering existing here on earth, but I don't see an issue with that and I think the church has good explanations for that as man being in a fallen state.
7nine
Texaggie7nine
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Frok said:

Quote:

Whenever I tried to bring the subjects up to fellow Christians of all denominations, most would put up vapid excuses "people choose hell, God doesn't send them" and would stop wanting to talk about it anymore.


This is what my bolded comment is addressing. Is it that people don't talk about it or that you didn't get the answer you like?
The most common answer was "I can't pretend to know who will be saved and who isn't". It was generally a cop out. It leaves room for the possibility that people of other faiths might make it to heaven. The few that did try to answer with a logical reason followed along the lines of several on this board that try to explain it as that God is unmeasurably good and holy, and those that refuse his salvation must be purged and cannot exist near him, therefore their only other place to go is Hell.

I would say the CS Lewis type approach was the closest to a logical answer as I could find, but generally the times I felt emboldened enough to address these questions where when I was at churches that would have a yearly showing of Heavens Gates and Hells Flames, and pushed the idea of repent and be saved or go to hell.
7nine
Aggrad08
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dermdoc said:

Aggrad08 said:

Nah, it just doesn't hold up to scrutiny, its really one of his weaker attempts. To believe it you have to be able to choose heaven freely anytime after you are dead. To his credit, he at least abandons the notion that people of other religions are necessarily destined for hell, as that's utterly indefensible.

He tries to raise defenses to other objections as well which don't work, he admits that if eternity is defined "as a mere prolongation of time, hell is disproportionate. But then he is running from the definition of eternity used throughout the bible and commonly understood.
It all comes down to whether you believe in a supernatural God who can do anything. Even save people after death. I think the supernatural part is what non believers have a problem with.


I disagree completely. I make no appeal to naturalism in my criticism of hell. And I have believed in the supernatural in fact I was a Christian when this problem with hell among other issues came to a front. The problem of hell is a moral and logical failing, not one predicated on belief in the supernatural or any particular deity.

Saving people after death is fine. But that probably would go down as greatest possible omission in the universe.
dermdoc
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Aggrad08 said:

dermdoc said:

Aggrad08 said:

Nah, it just doesn't hold up to scrutiny, its really one of his weaker attempts. To believe it you have to be able to choose heaven freely anytime after you are dead. To his credit, he at least abandons the notion that people of other religions are necessarily destined for hell, as that's utterly indefensible.

He tries to raise defenses to other objections as well which don't work, he admits that if eternity is defined "as a mere prolongation of time, hell is disproportionate. But then he is running from the definition of eternity used throughout the bible and commonly understood.
It all comes down to whether you believe in a supernatural God who can do anything. Even save people after death. I think the supernatural part is what non believers have a problem with.


I disagree completely. I make no appeal to naturalism in my criticism of hell. And I have believed in the supernatural in fact I was a Christian when this problem with hell among other issues came to a front. The problem of hell is a moral and logical failing, not one predicated on belief in the supernatural or any particular deity.

Saving people after death is fine. But that probably would go down as greatest possible omission in the universe.
If I thought God capriciously sent people to Hell just for the hell of it, I would not worship that God either. It sounds like because of the Hell theology you transmute that to an awful vindictive Hitler like God which I reject.
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dermdoc
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And you can be a believing Christian and reject the concept of Hell as eternal torment.
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Texaggie7nine
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dermdoc said:

And you can be a believing Christian and reject the concept of Hell as eternal torment.
If I'm ever christian again, it will be as a Universalist. .
7nine
Aggrad08
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You make it sound as though I'm corrupting Christian teaching. I'm not. I'm responding to standard dogma as old as the church, the most commonly found beliefs on the subject.

I understand your views are atypical and provide for a more gracious god. As were CS Lewis's, though to a lesser extent, but he was trying to defend some aspects of the "hitler god" interpretation, and did so miserably.
gordo97
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Frok said:

I thought this reaction from John Cooper was refreshing. And I'll add that I don't think it is shocking that a leader from Hillsong renounced their faith.
https://cogentchristianity.com/2019/08/13/skillets-john-cooper-on-apostasy-among-young-christian-leaders/

Quote:

"Thirdly, there is a common thread running through these leaders/influencers that basically says that "no one else is talking about the REAL stuff." This is just flatly false. I just read today in a renown worship leader's statement, "How could a God of love send people to hell? No one talks about it." As if he is the first person to ask this? Brother, you are not that unique. The church has wrestled with this for 1500 years. Literally. Everybody talks about it. Children talk about it in Sunday school. There's like a billion books written on the topic. Just because you don't get the answer you want doesn't mean that we are unwilling to wrestle with it. We wrestle with scripture until we are transformed by the renewing of our minds.


Amen.






There absolutely are things that a lot of believers do not want to discuss. For example, do young kids that pass away tragically "go to heaven or hell". There is this thing called "age of accountability" that someone came up with, but I never saw much scripture clearly defining it.

And I have heard from Calvinist people I know that it's definitely possible that some of them might be destined for hell because of predestination..... It makes me sick to my stomach just writing that.
Frok
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Do you expect to get a solid satisfactory answer to that question other than we don't really know?
Texaggie7nine
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Frok said:

Do you expect to get a solid satisfactory answer to that question other than we don't really know?


Do you expect a truly loving God to supply an obvious answer to that? Do you expect followers of a God that is LOVE to accept that perhaps 3 year olds go to hell?
7nine
mazag08
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Texaggie7nine said:

Frok said:

Do you expect to get a solid satisfactory answer to that question other than we don't really know?


Do you expect a truly loving God to supply an obvious answer to that? Do you expect followers of a God that is LOVE to accept that perhaps 3 year olds go to hell?


Here we are, talking about it.

And you haven't posted a fact, merely a bunch of "I believe".
Texaggie7nine
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What fact do you want? That a place of punishment awaits non believers according to the Bible?
7nine
Aggrad08
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Frok said:

Do you expect to get a solid satisfactory answer to that question other than we don't really know?


It's so curious that Christianity is a religion with extreme focus on the afterlife, yet offers almost no knowledge of the afterlife whatsoever. It's hardly surprising that people examining the very focus of the religion should expect satisfactory answers.
mazag08
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Texaggie7nine said:

What fact do you want? That a place of punishment awaits non believers according to the Bible?


Your belief is just as strong as mine. Yet you provide no proof of yours while demanding proof of mine.
Texaggie7nine
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I dont demand "proof" of yours. I ask for explanation of a "loving God" that created the dichotomy you believe in.
7nine
94chem
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Skillet is the Petra of this generation. Glad to see them defe ding the faith. Their lyrics aren't as powerful as Petra's, but Jen Ledger is awesome. Incredible voice.
BusterAg
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Texaggie7nine said:

dermdoc said:

And you can be a believing Christian and reject the concept of Hell as eternal torment.
If I'm ever christian again, it will be as a Universalist. .


I thought you were leaning Eastern Orthodox? It sounded from the JP thread that you were starting to get that worldview, where the salvation status Protestant thing is not as important as the journey.
Frok
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Texaggie7nine said:

Frok said:

Do you expect to get a solid satisfactory answer to that question other than we don't really know?


Do you expect a truly loving God to supply an obvious answer to that? Do you expect followers of a God that is LOVE to accept that perhaps 3 year olds go to hell?


I take comfort in the fact that God is just and Jesus said the kingdom of God belongs to those like children. But it's not clear in scripture so I can only speculate.




gordo97
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Frok said:

Do you expect to get a solid satisfactory answer to that question other than we don't really know?


Been going to Baptist and Baptist-like churches for the past 22 years. Lately I have been more and more frustrated with how quickly we go to "we don't know" type of answers to questions that demand deeper thought and discussion.

I am not here to "start a fire and then watch the place burn down" by asking controversial questions. I wish I had more outlets for these thoughts and questions I have.

The Bible does not give straight answers to a lot of life questions that I find important. And that's why I wrestle with them and have a hard time just accepting the "we don't know" approach and just moving on.
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