Didn't do much research into the actual case as I don't buy into it having actually happened, at least not the demon possession part of it.
From what little I know, it happened in Germany back in the 70's. I have little faith in supernatural things I hear from that side of the world. I have seen and read of regular magicians, especially from the US, that have experienced a lot of negative receptions when traveling on the eastern side of Europe and in the more rural areas. Being called practitioners of witchcraft and the like.
Saw this movie in college.. creepy as hell and definitely one of the scariest movies I've seen. The movie cites multiple times that the witching hour is 3:00 am. Well HBO got me good, as the night I watched it, I look at the clock as the credits started rolling and it was 3:00 am. Had a hard time sleeping that night.. and I'm usually not one to spook easy.
God is the creator of all things, "... visible and invisible."
It would follow that there is a world that exists, not outside our own, but not perceptible by our senses. This is the realm of angles. Would follow that some of them are fallen yet still have real power.
So, I do believe that possessions are real. Thankfully Jesus has taught us how to overcome this evil.
Haven't seen the movie. Will check it out some time. Thx!
The movie cites multiple times that the witching hour is 3:00 am.
3:00 AM is opposite of the time in which Christ traditionally died on the cross (3:00 PM) so in the film it was stated this was the time demons are often active in order to mock Christ's sacrifice (or something along those lines, it has been a very long time since I've seen the film). I have to admit when I wake with a start and look over at the clock and see it is close to three, I still get a chill because of this film.
God is the creator of all things, "... visible and invisible."
It would follow that there is a world that exists, not outside our own, but not perceptible by our senses. This is the realm of angles. Would follow that some of them are fallen yet still have real power.
So, I do believe that possessions are real. Thankfully Jesus has taught us how to overcome this evil.
Haven't seen the movie. Will check it out some time. Thx!
Not to detail the thread, but I saw an interview with a former New Ager turned Christian and he really goes into his experience this "realm" and astral projection. Not sure I believe but it's some creepy stuff.
I researched after seeing the film, and in my absolutely amateurish estimation, this was a young girl who was driven indirectly by her family to experience this. The family had some true anger about the moves the Church was making away from traditionalism.
Also, the 3am thing in the film was actually, IIRC, something like 5am IRL.
My mother told me a story about my grandfather assisting in an exorcism. I want to say he was around 10 to 12 years old when he doing one. His job was to hold the hold the hands of the person possessed and to make sure the ropes they used to tie their hands to the bed stayed knotted.
He said this one woman who they were performing the exorcism on would shake violently, and stare at the ropes and untie them somehow just by staring at them. He said he would tie them over and over and she would simply look at them and untie them. Pretty scary stuff. I believe demons are real, and do not watch or even read about them.
The thing that strikes me as questionable is how we are to believe that Demons are eternal beings that used to be angels. They are able to manipulate and coerce rational man with dubious deceptions. Satan is supposed to be beautiful if you were to see him.
Yet, whenever these supposed spirits happen to completely possess a human, they act as if they are 2 year olds throwing fits or mentally ill people who have no control over their thought.
You would think if a demon, especially the likes of Satan himself took over someone and controlled them, he would seem completely rational and convincing and would try to talk people into doing bad things.
What purpose would a demon have in just making someone act like a crazy person?
What makes more sense, a person who is either mentally ill or trying to act like they are "possessed" and they exhibit behavior that they imagine looks to be "evil and monstrous", or an eternal entity that exists in a higher realm takes over a human body and acts in this manor?
We have many hundreds of testimonies, and plenty of audio and video, to the following proofs, which are metrics the Church uses, alongside rigorous psychological evaluation, in seeking Bishop's approval for the rite of exorcism ("exorcism" is prayer):
Knowledge of ancient language(s) Revulsion to holy objects Extraordinary strength Knowledge of hidden, unconfessed sin
The thing that strikes me as questionable is how we are to believe that Demons are eternal beings that used to be angels. They are able to manipulate and coerce rational man with dubious deceptions. Satan is supposed to be beautiful if you were to see him.
Yet, whenever these supposed spirits happen to completely possess a human, they act as if they are 2 year olds throwing fits or mentally ill people who have no control over their thought.
You would think if a demon, especially the likes of Satan himself took over someone and controlled them, he would seem completely rational and convincing and would try to talk people into doing bad things.
What purpose would a demon have in just making someone act like a crazy person?
What makes more sense, a person who is either mentally ill or trying to act like they are "possessed" and they exhibit behavior that they imagine looks to be "evil and monstrous", or an eternal entity that exists in a higher realm takes over a human body and acts in this manor?
"Beauty is the glitter of truth" - one of my favorite quotes by Antoni Gaudi, Architect from Spain. You bring up a number of aspects, beauty and rational thinking - all of which point to God. My understanding of Lucifer, is that he hates God. This hate has eroded what was once the highest angelic being ever created by God. A priest friend of mine likened sin to plutonium. You could probably hold it in your hand, but over time, it will erode at a molecular level. Given enough time, it will kill you.
I have often wondered the same thing - you know "Chicken foot." My mom tells us the time in Laredo, she grew up there in the 40's and 50's, when there was a big dance at the local hall. All the gals and guys went. There was a dashing man who asked a girl to dance. Well, folks began to suspect something was going on the way he wooed her so quickly. As they we getting ready to leave, someone noticed the man's feet.. sure enough, he had one chicken foot and one goat foot -AHH!!
So, that was probably, a cautionary tale - but there are quite a few other stories my mom would tell us as kids. They centered on the reality of the devil and the extent he will go to possess you. Some real scary shat!!
Was told early on to fill your heart with the love of Jesus and you need not worry!
So, I am not playing that for the reason I was told is that evil can leave a mark. It can mark objects and it can transcend time and place. Don't ask me how, was informed of this by a certain Friar Guajardo. A Dominican priest from Mexico City who studied quantum physics at UNAM.
We were talking about ghost and graveyards. Fr. Guajardo said, oh yeah.. very real and dangerous (to the soul). He was telling me about a particularly evil work of art that can continue to curse. Makes sense, as Catholic we believe in a sacramental (a blessed object, like a crucifix) why not cursed objects? So he said, it is very possible to die in excruciating pain and sin - be buried and be a curse to the ground, thus inviting even more evil.
Catholic funeral rites involve blessing the ground prior to burial. When I was 12, I lived close to the church, and was on speed dial for the parish priest as his go to altar boy. I did a bunch of weddings, baptisms, quinceneras, and funerals. I didn't like the funerals.
So, Fr. Guajardo told me about him "canceling out" evil with prayer. He did this to objects, houses, people, and works of art (music, film, you name it). You are probably weirded out by now, but it gets better - he did it with a pendulum! Sometimes he did it over the phone. Sometimes with dousing rods. For him, being a real scientist, he said it was natural. Nothing odd to his very scientific mind. He left before I could ask more, but I saw him do some crazy shat!! Like move things.
Agree with you. Back in my younger days I thought fear of this stuff was crazy. As i have gotten older I have seen what evil and sin can do to people.My wife and I never watch stuff like that.
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3:00 AM is opposite of the time in which Christ traditionally died on the cross (3:00 PM) so in the film it was stated this was the time demons are often active in order to mock Christ's sacrifice (or something along those lines, it has been a very long time since I've seen the film). I have to admit when I wake with a start and look over at the clock and see it is close to three, I still get a chill because of this film.
so in the last weeks of my drinking days (four years sober next month), i had this issue of passing out between 1:00-2:00 am but waking up every night for almost a week at 3:00 or 3:30 am. wide awake despite having passed out an hour earlier and very aware of the time. never happened to me before and i would down a bunch of booze to pass back out. the weird part is that i would be extremely clear headed and lucid and this was the time my actions weighed heaviest on me.
i went to my first meeting a few weeks afterwards with this occurrence (the clarity i experienced and the odd hour every night) definitely playing a part in my seeking help. a very heavy push from an unseen force that was pushing hard.
what's crazy is i think this is the first time i've ever expressed those moments to anyone.
All religions require a sacrifice. 100% of them...including the secular religion of "social justice."
Satanism tends to a LARP for the cameras. Much of the organizations around the term are atheistic.
Luciferianism, however, is a better descriptor of the theistic, because it is the worship - including a sacrifice - of the preternatural (demonic). It is "illumination." It is the subjugation of the human will for fame/money/power/sex. I've detailed this quite a bit on the Q stuff threads on Politics, but the bottom line here is that a Black Mass will be at 3am, is backwards of the Latin Rite, includes sodomy, and includes the murder of "innocence," including the very worst of that.
I personally believe this has happened at least once in the Vatican (St. Paul's chapel close to the Sistine, about 50 years ago).
So, as a Catholic, what is the solution? Allowing Christ to torture and humiliate the demons through your life of repentance....including good confessions and regular Sacraments.
The thing that strikes me as questionable is how we are to believe that Demons are eternal beings that used to be angels. They are able to manipulate and coerce rational man with dubious deceptions. Satan is supposed to be beautiful if you were to see him.
Yet, whenever these supposed spirits happen to completely possess a human, they act as if they are 2 year olds throwing fits or mentally ill people who have no control over their thought.
You would think if a demon, especially the likes of Satan himself took over someone and controlled them, he would seem completely rational and convincing and would try to talk people into doing bad things.
What purpose would a demon have in just making someone act like a crazy person?
What makes more sense, a person who is either mentally ill or trying to act like they are "possessed" and they exhibit behavior that they imagine looks to be "evil and monstrous", or an eternal entity that exists in a higher realm takes over a human body and acts in this manor?
"Beauty is the glitter of truth" - one of my favorite quotes by Antoni Gaudi, Architect from Spain. You bring up a number of aspects, beauty and rational thinking - all of which point to God. My understanding of Lucifer, is that he hates God. This hate has eroded what was once the highest angelic being ever created by God. A priest friend of mine likened sin to plutonium. You could probably hold it in your hand, but over time, it will erode at a molecular level. Given enough time, it will kill you.
I have often wondered the same thing - you know "Chicken foot." My mom tells us the time in Laredo, she grew up there in the 40's and 50's, when there was a big dance at the local hall. All the gals and guys went. There was a dashing man who asked a girl to dance. Well, folks began to suspect something was going on the way he wooed her so quickly. As they we getting ready to leave, someone noticed the man's feet.. sure enough, he had one chicken foot and one goat foot -AHH!!
So, that was probably, a cautionary tale - but there are quite a few other stories my mom would tell us as kids. They centered on the reality of the devil and the extent he will go to possess you. Some real scary shat!!
Was told early on to fill your heart with the love of Jesus and you need not worry!
+Pablo
and yeeeeet.... When you think about how a human would act if they were under the "delusion" that they were possessed, and acting as an "evil spirit" they would act similar to a wild animal. Make growling sounds like a predator. The "evil" things we think of are evolutionarily burned in sights and sounds that we subconsciously are alerted for.
It makes far more sense that this is feeble human attempts to make something scary and seem "evil" than actual powerful beings from another dimension that posses knowledge far beyond our own and have existed for thousands of years, tricking and deceiving people.
It makes far more sense that this is feeble human attempts to make something scary and seem "evil" than actual powerful beings from another dimension that posses knowledge far beyond our own and have existed for thousands of years, tricking and deceiving people.
And yet, superhuman strength, knowing which objects are blessed or not, and speaking in unknown languages says that this theory of yours is wrong...
I have actual footage of WW2. I have 2 relatives who were in it. One that lived and told me about it, one that died. I have toured the actual grounds in Europe, seen the destruction still left behind. Seen thousands of WW2 artifacts. Read countless stories from those there.
There were way too many witnesses to the actual occurrence of WW2 and the objective fact that it happened for it to be a fabrication.
Now with a select few people who have great interest in making others believe in the reality of demonic possession, be it for their own usefulness or to sway religious belief in others, to be the only ones that have witnessed actual proof, leaves a lot to be desired.
For a demonic possession to be an objective fact, it is nearly impossible. Because it is a "spiritual" occurrence, one can only assume it is real, because there is no way to objectively observe the spirit world.
As a priest witnessing something like a child or person reciting a language they "should not know", the priest would have to assume the family is correct in telling them that there is no way for them to have known the language. When in fact, there is no objective way for the priest to know that. The family could be lying. The family could be ignorant to the fact that someone taught the person the words to say, or that the person learned the words of their own volition previously.
All you can have, as far as empirical fact, with something like demonic possession is coming to a theorized conclusion, still riddled with personal bias.
