Why Pentecostalism Dominates Growth in Christianity Today

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UTExan
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Quote:

It was the summer of 1906 and something extraordinary was taking place in a tumble-down shack in the industrial outskirts of Los Angeles. Crowds gathered day and night at the Apostolic Faith Mission to be part of the Azusa Street revival, a charismatic Christian renewal movement led by a black minister from Louisiana named William Seymour.

The Los Angeles Times took notice of the unusual spiritual awakening on Azusa Street, describing ecstatic attendees "breathing strange utterances and mouthing a creed which it would seem no sane mortal could understand," adding that "devotees of the weird doctrine practice the most fanatical rites, preach the wildest theories, and work themselves into a state of mad excitement."

The Times may have scoffed, but for the thousands of believers who traveled cross-country to join Seymour's grassroots spiritual movement, there was real power and Biblical truth in all of that "madness." Their spontaneous and euphoric expressions, known as "speaking in tongues," were a clear sign that they had been baptized in the Holy Spirit, just as Jesus's disciples were "filled with the Holy Ghost" and "began to speak with other tongues" during the Jewish feast known as the Pentecost.
Word of the spiritual storm on Azusa Street quickly spread across the country and eventually around the world, launching the wildly popular Christian movement now known as Pentecostalism. Pentecostal worship is famous for its spontaneous outpourings of the Holy Spirit through singing, speaking in tongues and divine healing. Today, just 113 years after the Azusa Street revival, Pentecostals number about 300 million believers worldwide, ranking second only to Catholics as the world's most practiced Christian denomination.

In the United States, two of the largest Pentecostal churches are The Church of God in Christ whose 6.5 million members are mostly African-American, and the Assemblies of God with 3.2 million members across more than 13,000 congregations.

Pentecostalism and related charismatic Christian movements are among the fastest-growing religious denominations in the world. In 1980, 6 percent of all global Christians were Pentecostals. By 2015, 25 percent of global Christians were Pentecostal with the greatest concentrations in what's referred to as the "Global South" largely impoverished regions in Africa, Latin America and Southeast Asia.
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What Pentecostals Believe
Martin Mittelstadt is a New Testament professor at Evangel University in Missouri, and president of the Society for Pentecostal Studies. He describes Pentecostalism as a "renewal" or "restoration" movement within Christianity. Such movements have sprung up now and again when Christians feel like something important about Christ's original teachings and church has been lost and needs to be recovered.

In the case of Pentecostals, what was lost were the impressive spiritual powers and prophetic callings bestowed upon Christ's 11 remaining apostles in the New Testament book of Acts, says Mittelstadt. After Jesus was crucified and resurrected, he appeared to his disciples and told them to wait in Jerusalem "until ye be endued with power from on high" (Luke 24:49). That power arrived during the Jewish festival of Shavuot, known in Greek as Pentecost ("fiftieth") because it takes place 50 days after Passover.

While the apostles and more than 100 other early Christians were gathered together for the Pentecost feast, "there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting," reports Acts 2. "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

Pentecostal pioneer William Seymour and others came to understand this original biblical Pentecost experience as an example of "baptism in the Holy Spirit," or "Spirit baptism." Such a Spirit baptism occurs after someone has already converted to Christianity in their hearts by accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Savior (also known as being "saved"), and is separate from a water baptism. To be baptized in the Holy Spirit is to be baptized "with the Holy Ghost and with fire," as promised by John the Baptist in Matthew 3:11.

Pentecostals believe that the same transformative spiritual baptism experienced by the original 11 apostles is available to all and is necessary to align your life and personal mission with Jesus Christ's.
"The goal is to reenact 1st-century Christianity," says Mittelstadt. "They want to relive the book of Acts. And the events on the Day of Pentecost are central to the character of the Pentecostal worldview."

Pentecostals and Charismatic Worship

In the early Pentecostal movement, Mittelstadt says that church services used to run for four or five hours straight and include a lot of singing and space for spontaneous expressions of praise through dancing, clapping, shouting and speaking in tongues. Leaders may also ask people to come to the front of the church for healing, where they might anoint them with oil and pray over them.

"One of the great contributions of Pentecostals was this new emphasis on praise, on worship, spontaneity and freedom," says Mittelstadt. "The service is not taking place in front of you, but you are full participants within it."

Many Pentecostal practices have found their way into other Christian denominations, in what is referred to as the charismatic movement. There are charismatic Catholic, Methodist and evangelical churches.
Modern Pentecostal worship services in larger congregations aren't quite as spontaneous and ecstatic as their predecessors, says Mittelstadt, who laments the "performance element" that has taken over.

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Mittlelstadt cites several reasons for Pentecostalism's explosive growth in the Global South. For starters, even non-Christians are accustomed to highly experiential forms of religious worship and practice.

"You're talking about people that are already living in a spiritual dynamic that believes in the supernatural," says Mittelstadt. "The idea of 'God versus the powers' is an everyday reality for these folks."

A second reason for Pentecostalism's rapid spread in the Global South is related to what's often derogatorily called "the prosperity gospel," the belief that living a certain kind of Christian life will not only bring spiritual blessings, but monetary reward. Mittelstadt doesn't agree that all Pentecostals in the Global South want to buy a new BMW, but he recognizes that baptism in the Holy Spirit often brings with it a noticeable "lift."

"You have this profound spiritual experience and all of a sudden fidelity to your spouse becomes important, education becomes important, you give up alcohol, you hold down a job, your family winds up being transformed and your communities are transformed," says Mittelstadt. "There's a social lift that comes with the Pentecostal experience."



https://people.howstuffworks.com/pentecostal.htm

Actually, as the 20th century dawned, Charles Parham and some students had a pentecostal experience in Kansas predating William Seymour, who first heard about this at a meeting in Houston, TX. And John Wesley's 1739 experience at Fetter Lane in London was so powerful that he records the following:

Quote:

About three in the morning, as we were continuing instant in prayer, the power of God came mightily upon us, insomuch that many cried our for exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground.

As soon as we were recovered a little from that awe and amazement at the presence of his Majesty, we broke out with one voice, 'We praise thee, O God; we acknowledge thee to be the Lord.' [iii]
Whitefield, writing of the same occasion, said, 'O that our despisers were partakers of our joys!'

https://lexloiz.wordpress.com/tag/fetter-lane/
Martin Q. Blank
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You can't deny the Spirit is upon them.






Yes, that last one was from Ferris Bueller.
AGC
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AG
Why are we thumbs upping this?
UTExan
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AGC said:

Why are we thumbs upping this?
We are not. I certainly am. Pentecostalism is such a powerful force and just as the establishment Anglicans made fun of the early Methodists, the declining mainstream churches deride the pentecostal/charismatic movement today. The Catholic charismatic movement is one of bright spots:
Quote:

Catholic from the outset
The worldwide charismatic movement, which now includes an estimated 700 million people around the world, of which an estimated 160 million are Catholics, has its origins in the events of January 1, 1901, when a young girl began speaking in tongues after the prayer and invocation of the Holy Spirit by a lay evangelist of Methodist extraction. This took place in Topeka, Kansas; from there the movement grew and gradually spread to the established churches in the Protestant and Orthodox traditions, and lastly to the Roman Catholic Church.
Although customs and terminology were grafted onto the Catholic Charismatic Renewal from these Pentecostal sources, the Catholic Church had its own part to play in the January 1, 1901 beginning. On that morning, in Rome, before young Agnes Ozman started speaking in tongues in Topeka, Pope Leo XIII ushered in the new century by solemnly invoking the Holy Spirit over all of Christendom.

https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2013/05/18/the-charismatic-renewal-and-the-catholic-church/
Serotonin
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AG
UTExan, have you ever seen A River Runs Through It? There is a scene where the father (Presbyterian minister) says something like "Methodists are Baptists who can read" with contempt.
Duncan Idaho
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There is a HUGE " "Pentecostal" church in my area. I mean HUGE 20+ campuses, average weekly attendance of more than 50k.

I put Pentecostal in quotes because they go put of their way to say "we dont use labels, so we dont call our church Pentecostal....but we are." The really strange part is that they are almost mormon in their efforts to hide what they believe during sunday services and outreach efforts.

I had no idea they were Pentecostal, until I made a "well at least they aren't handling snakes" comment and a very active member informed me "no. We aren't that kind of Pentecostal "

They keep the speaking in tongues, laying of hands, prophesying, etc secret or at least not discussed until you have been around long enough and vetted to be invited to the off the books small groups. IF this happens at all, it can happen years after you have been baptized and a member, the next week, or never depending on whether you are deemed faithful enough to be brought in to the fold.

I've attended sunday services many many times over the last 5 years and they never mention anything about tongues, laying of hands, zero prophecy other than the most milquetoast "cant wait for jesus to return"

The Wednesday night services offer a bit of peek behind the curtain but nothing too shocking.
UTExan
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Duncan Idaho said:

There is a HUGE " "Pentecostal" church in my area. I mean HUGE 20+ campuses, average weekly attendance of more than 50k.

I put Pentecostal in quotes because they go put of their way to say "we dont use labels, so we dont call our church Pentecostal....but we are." The really strange part is that they are almost mormon in their efforts to hide what they believe during sunday services and outreach efforts.

I had no idea they were Pentecostal, until I made a "well at least they aren't handling snakes" comment and a very active member informed me "no. We aren't that kind of Pentecostal "

They keep the speaking in tongues, laying of hands, prophesying, etc secret or at least not discussed until you have been around long enough and vetted to be invited to the off the books small groups. IF this happens at all, it can happen years after you have been baptized and a member, the next week, or never depending on whether you are deemed faithful enough to be brought in to the fold.

I've attended sunday services many many times over the last 5 years and they never mention anything about tongues, laying of hands, zero prophecy other than the most milquetoast "cant wait for jesus to return"

The Wednesday night services offer a bit of peek behind the curtain but nothing too shocking.

I now attend a similar church. It isn't secret----they are open about their denominational affiliation on their website (Assembly of God), but they are evangelizing a largely unchurched population, or a population which have largely been alienated by their Mormon church experience. For that reason, they know that many might be put off by a hyper-moralistic sermonizing style, so the sermons tend to be challenging, but encouraging as well. The real growth takes place in small groups which meet throughout the week. This is the same model used by Wesley in his Methodist classes, bands and societies.
Duncan Idaho
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I get having a "seeker friendly" sermon and worship experience (even if that style of worship keeps me in the lobby until it over) but even the vast majority of small groups are nothing more than a trip to the shooting range/bike path/fishing hole/bowlin lane/etc. that starts with a prayer and at some a 15min bible study.

Again things like speaking in tongues are not mentioned/displayed at all until one day you are at someone's house/a retreat/a service event and someone you have known for a while who has never mentioned any spiritual gifts before starts doing it and then they all start doing it.
UTExan
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Duncan Idaho said:

I get having a "seeker friendly" sermon and worship experience (even if that style of worship keeps me in the lobby until it over) but even the vast majority of small groups are nothing more than a trip to the shooting range/bike path/fishing hole/bowlin lane/etc. that starts with a prayer and at some a 15min bible study.

Again things like speaking in tongues are not mentioned/displayed at all until one day you are at someone's house/a retreat/a service event and someone you have known for a while who has never mentioned any spiritual gifts before starts doing it and then they all start doing it.

These are actual small groups engaged in Bible study, generally at someone's home. There are activity groups, such as mountain bikers, but they put that information up front so you know.
Martin Q. Blank
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Have you ever spoken in tongues?
Serotonin
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AG
UTExan (and MQB and others),

I'd be interested in your perspective on Protestant history and how that's contributed to the rise of Pentecostalism.

My general take (which may be ill-informed), is that for most of Protestant history they were far more likely to be from the merchant or trading classes of their European societies. They were smart, industrious, and very serious about theology. Expository preaching, Bibles studies, Biblical names for children (unlike Saint names for Catholic and Orthodox kids), etc.

There's a good excerpt from Chariots of Fire (linked below) where Eric Liddell reads from Isaiah to a congregation. It evokes the classic Protestant church setting.

I think the view (from Protestants) was that Catholics had a whiff of the central European masses. Uneducated, drunk, not serious about theology. Way too many dubious "spiritual" encounters with God or Mary.

As a result Protestant services and culture became pretty stifling and buttoned-up.

So now there's been a counter-reaction with a rejection of anything related to traditional church.

At the Orthodox parish I attend there are congregants who will show up 45 minutes or an hour into Divine Liturgy, they'll pull out cell phones to film or snap photos, people mill around in aisles, kids are running around. Not at all the environment I've experienced in Episcopalian or Reformed churches. Not. At. All.


UTExan
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Have you ever spoken in tongues?

Yes, but it is a private prayer language, and a lesser gift. There are occasions when it is appropriate for public, but Paul lays down the stipulations for this and predictably, such admonitions are often ignored for sensationalism. The pursuit of charismatic gifts can become idolatry in itself in that their purpose is to edify the church, not to mark a particular believer as being superior in any way.
Texaggie7nine
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I spoke in tongues in full gospel churches, as many did. We were not Pentecostal.
7nine
UTExan
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Quote:

I'd be interested in your perspective on Protestant history and how that's contributed to the rise of Pentecostalism.

My general take (which may be ill-informed), is that for most of Protestant history they were far more likely to be from the merchant or trading classes of their European societies. They were smart, industrious, and very serious about theology. Expository preaching, Bibles studies, Biblical names for children (unlike Saint names for Catholic and Orthodox kids), etc.
The early break from the Roman church was because of perceived corruption and excesses of the clergy as well as a general inability of the population to read the scriptures personally. What that meant psychologically cannot be underestimated, because in my opinion, salvation did not come via a corporate church but rather from an individual perceiving and knowing God and making an individual decision to become part of the body of believers on earth.

But western Europe also greatly benefited from vast revenues pouring in from the American colonies. The western and Texas historian Walter Prescott Webb deals with this extensively in his works. And the acquisition of that financial independence along with the psychological break from the Roman church is what I personally believe informed Christian experience in at least part of Protestant Europe. For Germany and central Europe I would defer to historians of those areas.

Edit to say that the English-Scottish border areas had what were called Holy Fairs, which author Leigh Eric Schmidt says were the forerunners to American frontier camp revival meetings.
Woody2006
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AG



Cyprian
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AG
When overly emotional people get zealous and decide to play theology, things can certainly get "interesting"

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Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.
Zobel
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AG
Quote:

The early break from the Roman church was because of perceived corruption and excesses of the clergy as well as a general inability of the population to read the scriptures personally. What that meant psychologically cannot be underestimated, because in my opinion, salvation did not come via a corporate church but rather from an individual perceiving and knowing God and making an individual decision to become part of the body of believers on earth.

You know the bolder point is true for the vast majority of Christians ever...where does that leave you?

Also, no Christian denomination that I know of teaches that salvation comes via corporate church as opposed to individual choice. Including medieval Roman Catholicism.
Serotonin
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AG
Yeah, I think this is a big blind spot for most Protestants. An economist I follow made this comment in his review of the Bible Museum in DC:
Quote:

6. The museum bends over backwards to be non-denominational, that said the intended neutrality imposes biases of its own. The big losers are the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, because this is indeed a museum about a book, not about a church community. The connection between this book, and the communities it has spawned, is precisely the murky angle here and it seems almost deliberately obscured. The Amish also are not prominent in the displays. Imagine if people really just read and worshiped the book. This truly is a museum about a book.
https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2018/12/museum-bible-washington-d-c.html
Serotonin
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AG
UTExan said:

Quote:

I'd be interested in your perspective on Protestant history and how that's contributed to the rise of Pentecostalism.

My general take (which may be ill-informed), is that for most of Protestant history they were far more likely to be from the merchant or trading classes of their European societies. They were smart, industrious, and very serious about theology. Expository preaching, Bibles studies, Biblical names for children (unlike Saint names for Catholic and Orthodox kids), etc.
The early break from the Roman church was because of perceived corruption and excesses of the clergy as well as a general inability of the population to read the scriptures personally. What that meant psychologically cannot be underestimated, because in my opinion, salvation did not come via a corporate church but rather from an individual perceiving and knowing God and making an individual decision to become part of the body of believers on earth.

But western Europe also greatly benefited from vast revenues pouring in from the American colonies. The western and Texas historian Walter Prescott Webb deals with this extensively in his works. And the acquisition of that financial independence along with the psychological break from the Roman church is what I personally believe informed Christian experience in at least part of Protestant Europe. For Germany and central Europe I would defer to historians of those areas.

Edit to say that the English-Scottish border areas had what were called Holy Fairs, which author Leigh Eric Schmidt says were the forerunners to American frontier camp revival meetings.
Regarding reading scripture, k2 already touched on that. I doubt most Christians worldwide owned a Bible until the last 50 years.

Yeah, the Scots-Irish (and I have a lot of that blood) are extremely individualistic. But were they really an integral part of the Roman Catholic Church to begin with?

The English are an interesting story because there is a pretty persuasive argument that England and it's people would have happily remained Catholic if not for Edward VIII. I think parish/village life was pretty strong there and maybe they avoided some of the excesses of other Catholic churches in Germany and Northern Europe.
Zobel
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AG
It's even more interesting to view the invasion of 1066 in the context of 1054 and Peter's pence (ecclesial tax to Rome), as a Rome-sanctioned war.

Essentially Roman Catholic France conquered Orthodox England.
Serotonin
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AG
k2aggie07 said:

It's even more interesting to view the invasion of 1066 in the context of 1054 and Peter's pence (ecclesial tax to Rome), as a Rome-sanctioned war.

Essentially Roman Catholic France conquered Orthodox England.
Yeah that's right. The new Frankish/Gothic wave that took over the Roman Church stamped out the old Orthodoxy in various places in Western Europe.

When you look at the St Augustine Gospels which brought the Faith to the British Isles, their illustrations look like Coptic or proto-Byzantine iconography.

Of course, there were Anglo Saxons who left England after the Norman conquest and went on to serve in Byzantium. Pretty cool stuff:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Guard
UTExan
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Quote:

You know the bolder point is true for the vast majority of Christians ever...where does that leave you?
But they were recipients of oral testimony by those who were generally sincere, unlike the corrupted medieval church. And the Roman church sought to suppress widespread dissemination of the Bible as demonstrated in their suppression of those such as Wycliffe. It leaves me personally convinced that church hierarchy should be viewed with extra vigilance, because, like most human hierarchical organizations, those in charge tend to value the preservation of the status quo as being the highest priorities.

And that is the challenge that charismatics/pentecostals as emergent faith groups tend to pose to long established ecclesiastical groups even as Jesus posed a threat to the Sanhedrin and its constituent groups. Note that missionary evangelical groups in the west have prioritized distribution of Bibles in native languages, especially during the Cold War in eastern Europe and Asia, so in the current literate era, the Bible as a means of evangelization is seen as primary.
Zobel
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AG
I think your view of the medieval church is overly simplistic. Was there corruption in the clergy? Yes, and the political rulers too, and it was hard to find where one corruption ended and the other began, and they were certainly interrelated.

In the other hand to suggest that the faith as such was being represented in a generally insincere fashion day in and day out is a condemnation and judgment of every parish priest, deacon, every bishop, every monk. It's a slur.

I think there were devout churchgoers and habitual ones, atheist priests and fervent believers. Corrupt bishops and pious ones. Just like today, and just like there have always been.
UTExan
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My opinion of the medieval church is based on their history: their political power taught them to rely on instruments of the flesh to battle what they viewed as heresy. But since you are Orthodox, I thought you might find this interesting:

Quote:

Fr. George Nicozisin
Speaking in Tongues, "Glossolalia," a popular practice with many Churches today, is a phenomenon which can be traced to the days of the Apostles. A decade ago, Speaking in Tongues was encountered only in Pentecostal Churches, Revival Meetings, Quaker gatherings and some Methodist groups. Today, Glossolalia is also found in some Roman Catholic and Protestant Churches.
The Greek Orthodox Church does not preclude the use of Glossolalia, but regards it as one of the minor gifts of the Holy Spirit. If Glossolalia has fallen out of use it is because it served its purpose in New Testament times and is no longer necessary. However, even when used, it is a private and personal gift, a lower form of prayer. The Orthodox Church differs with those Pentecostal and Charismatic groups which regard Glossolalia as a pre requisite to being a Christian and to having received the Holy Spirit.
Serapion of Egypt, a fourth century contemporary of St. Athanasios summarized Eastern Orthodox theology:
Quote:

"The Anointing after Baptism is for the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, that having been born again through Baptism and made new through the laver of regeneration, the candidates may be made new through the gifts of the Holy Spirit and secured by this Seal may continue steadfast."
Bishop Maximos Aghiorghoussis, Greek Orthodox Diocese of Pittsburgh and world-renowned Orthodox theologian on the Holy Spirit states it this way: "For Orthodox Christians, Baptism is our personal Paschal Resurrection and Chrismation is our personal Pentecost and indwelling of the Holy Spirit."

https://www.goarch.org/-/speaking-in-tongues-an-orthodox-perspective
Zobel
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AG
To think of the Roman church as a monolithic bloc throughout the medieval period is a gross oversimplification. It does you a disservice.


What about it, particularly?
UTExan
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k2aggie07 said:

To think of the Roman church as a monolithic bloc throughout the medieval period is a gross oversimplification. It does you a disservice.


What about it, particularly?
It is not that it was monolithic, but that local ecclesiarchs ruled with such authoritarianism.

But back to an Orthodox interpretation of glossolalia or speaking in tongues:

Quote:

Specifically, Corinthian Glossolalia was an activity of the Holy Spirit coming upon a person and compelling him to external expressions directed to God, but not understood by others. In Pentecost Glossolalia, while speaking in several different tongues, both the speaker and the listener understood what was uttered. The Glossolalia manifested in Corinth was the utterance of words, phrases, sentences, etc., intelligible to God but not to the person uttering them. What was uttered needed to be interpreted by another who had the gift of interpretation.

When the person spoke, his soul became passive and his understanding became inactive. He was in a state of ecstasy. While the words or sounds were prayer and praise, they were not clear in meaning and gave the impression of something mysterious. The phenomenon included sighs, groanings, shoutings, cries and utterances of disconnected speech, sometimes jubilant and some times ecstatic. There is no question-the Church of Corinth had Glossolalia; St. Paul attests to that and makes mention of it. But he also cautions the Corinthian Christians about excessive use; especially to the exclusion of the other more important gifts.

It appears St. Paul was questioned about the working of the Holy Spirit through the Gifts. Corinth was greatly influenced by Greek paganism which included demonstrations, frenzies and orgies, all intricately interwoven into their religious practices. In post Homeric times, the cult of the Dionysiac orgies made their entrance into the Greek world. According to this, music, the whirling dance, intoxication and utterances had the power to make men divine; to produce a condition in which the normal state was left behind and the inspired person perceived what was external to himself and the senses.


again--from: https://www.goarch.org/-/speaking-in-tongues-an-orthodox-perspective
swimmerbabe11
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Texaggie7nine said:

I spoke in tongues in full gospel churches, as many did. We were not Pentecostal.


So... what was that like? What was the motivation behind it? How was it then vs how is your hindsight on it?
Zobel
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AG
Local ecclesiarchs? Cmon. How many medieval bishops can you name? What percent do you think that represents?

///

Again, why are you quoting the article? I don't understand what you're trying to say by it.
Quad Dog
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AG
Quote:

They keep the speaking in tongues, laying of hands, prophesying, etc secret or at least not discussed until you have been around long enough and vetted to be invited to the off the books small groups. IF this happens at all, it can happen years after you have been baptized and a member, the next week, or never depending on whether you are deemed faithful enough to be brought in to the fold.

I've attended sunday services many many times over the last 5 years and they never mention anything about tongues, laying of hands, zero prophecy other than the most milquetoast "cant wait for jesus to return"

The Wednesday night services offer a bit of peek behind the curtain but nothing too shocking.
Is this a religious bait and switch? If you're going to believe in something and practice it, you should do it loud and proud despite the perceived consequences, right?
PabloSerna
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AG
UTExan said:

Quote:

You know the bolder point is true for the vast majority of Christians ever...where does that leave you?
But they were recipients of oral testimony by those who were generally sincere, unlike the corrupted medieval church. And the Roman church sought to suppress widespread dissemination of the Bible as demonstrated in their suppression of those such as Wycliffe. It leaves me personally convinced that church hierarchy should be viewed with extra vigilance, because, like most human hierarchical organizations, those in charge tend to value the preservation of the status quo as being the highest priorities.

And that is the challenge that charismatics/pentecostals as emergent faith groups tend to pose to long established ecclesiastical groups even as Jesus posed a threat to the Sanhedrin and its constituent groups. Note that missionary evangelical groups in the west have prioritized distribution of Bibles in native languages, especially during the Cold War in eastern Europe and Asia, so in the current literate era, the Bible as a means of evangelization is seen as primary.

Brother or Sister? Hard to tell by your handle there. I can appreciate your enthusiasm for your faith, however, I will remind you of the commandment about bearing false witness against thy neighbor. In my brief reading of some of the things you believe to true (I presume) about the history of the Roman Catholic Church - there are errors, over simplifications and a summary judgement of a faith that numbers in the billions (me included).

I think the nature of this thread and forum is to "share" without "sheep stealing" (the P word). Let's keep it like that OK?

+Pablo
PabloSerna
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AG
My opinion of why people are gravitating to newer christian religions that run counter to traditional liturgical oriented praise and worship services (i.e., mass for Catholics) is two fold:

1. Welcoming/Feels Good :
This is an important aspect of a person's initial faith journey. It would seem that people don't want to be put on the spot about knowing chapter and verse, dogmatic constitutions, or many other magisterial level aspects of belief. It would seem that it should be a simple matter of "feels right" or "not complicated". Understanding the Bible shouldn't require a basic college course in theology or philosophy in order to keep up right?

Maybe not a first, this is why Jesus used parables right? But as many on here can attest, the words that Jesus spoke then still run deep. If you want to put into the deep, you will need a bigger net. If you just want to be fed, not a problem, have a seat, there is plenty. I have a feeling you can stay right there your whole life and do incredible work to build up the Kingdom of God. Hope to see y'all in heaven!

But then again.. what is this whole Trinity thing? Eat my flesh?? Drink my blood???!!! Better buckle up.

2. Scandalous Clergy/Pastors:
Without a doubt, the sexual abuse by many clergy and pastors of churches has undermined the good that many others have paid with their blood for the spreading of the good news. This has led many who erroneously held such clergy in a saintly position to question the veracity of a faith - if even its leaders are capable of such evil. Never mind the truth of the words of Jesus or the the heroic example of many of the Saints, even giving their lives for the name of Jesus.

I try to tell as many people as I meet that I apologize on behalf of the Roman Catholic Church for the great scandal brought on by the numerous sex abuses, stealing, or outright racism - wrought by individual members (Priest, Nuns, Church Leaders, etc.). I then tell them (as it was told to me) to build your "house" on the "rock" - the word of God and his Church.

I can already hear you guys typing about Peter/Petras/Kephas/ etc... But the difference here is on the Church as a whole and not some perverted ya-hoo.

+Pablo

Texaggie7nine
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At the time, it was something that I really only did in private or when it was loud enough in the church that my voice would not really be noticeable over others.

To describe the experience, I would say the best description would be that it was a result of confirmation bias in a loop back type of scenario. I grew up in churches where laying of hands and speaking in tongues was normal, not an every Sunday thing but still pretty regular. So it was not something that unusual to me. The first time it happened was not really different than any other of the many times I experienced it.

Your mind looks for any type of confirmation that something is different when you are expecting a supernatural experience. I would guess that the expectation combined with the excitement creates an environment in your brain where endorphins or dopamine gets released and because you feel the difference from that initial release, you accept it as proof that the Holy Spirit is moving you. That in turn makes you more excited, which gives you more chemical release and the cycle continues. I have no doubt in the power of belief and the power of group behavior. The power of music, the power of emotional release when you truly believe that the all powerful creator of the universe is communing directly with you and moving you to a state of bliss.

I had no idea what the words I was uttering meant, but I had no doubt in my mind that it was exactly what my soul needed to tell God.

Even then I could spot the ones that used speaking in tongues as more of a show for others and I was skeptical of how many people were authentic doing it, but I witnessed many who struck me as 100% sincere and obviously in an altered state.

All that has really changed is that now I see that altered state as a result of chemistry, not supernatural interference.
7nine
UTExan
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k2aggie07 said:

Local ecclesiarchs? Cmon. How many medieval bishops can you name? What percent do you think that represents?

///

Again, why are you quoting the article? I don't understand what you're trying to say by it.

Quote:

The medieval church also had control over the state and the people, regardless of status. Most peasants worked for free on most church lands, producing crops and food for the church clergies instead of their own families. Those who belong to the lower class such as peasant workers and farmers paid 10% of their earnings to the Church. This was called tithes and could be paid in goods or money. The goods were usually kept in tithe barns. If they failed to pay their tithes, they were told that their souls would go to hell when they died. These tithes made the church very wealthy and according to historians, the very reason why King Henry VIII wanted to reform the church was to get hold of this kind of wealth.

Aside from tithes, people also needed to pay for church services such as baptism, marriage and burial. The church during the medieval period also did not need to pay taxes. This has saved them a lot of money and made the institution wealthier than the Kings.
https://www.medievalchronicles.com/medieval-life/medieval-religion/medieval-church/
I could quote other historians, such as William Manchester from his book A World Lit Only By Fire regarding ecclesiastical abuse but I think you get the idea. If there had not been abuses (such as indulgence selling) then there would have been no Protestant Reformation.
PabloSerna
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AG
Never experienced that personally, however, I remember a time when I attended a "healing service" by a traveling Priest who was credited with this "gift from God". I went up like the others and stood with my arms slightly raised and kind of peeking through my closed eyes as he approached. While he was praying over a friend of mine, standing to my right, I felt a heat wave, like somebody blew an air dryer at me. My friend, Margaret, immediately fell backwards to the floor. Fortunately there were ushers standing behind to catch her body. She kept her arms up the whole time. The Priest kept praying, in tongues no less, over Margaret then turned towards me. I was kind of scared that those two guys couldn't catch me as easily (5-11, 225). So - nothing happened.

PabloSerna
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AG
UTExan said:

k2aggie07 said:

I could quote other historians, such as William Manchester from his book A World Lit Only By Fire regarding ecclesiastical abuse but I think you get the idea. If there had not been abuses (such as indulgence selling) then there would have been no Protestant Reformation.

Indulgence selling? Please go on. You have my complete attention on this topic. As a lay Dominican, the same order accused of such practices, I can assure you it may surprise you to know that this is an often misunderstood aspect of the RCC.

Now if you were to go the Crusade route.. well there were quite a few abuses that warrant the "mea culpe" Pope John Paul II offered years ago. Indulgences.. not so much.

+Pablo

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