He is one of my favorite saints....

"The story is told of a client of Saint Thomas of Canterbury, who being sick, went to the saint's tomb to obtain a cure. He returned home cured. But then he thought to himself: "Suppose it would be better for my soul's salvation if I remained sick, what point then is there in being well?" In this frame of mind he went back and asked the saint to intercede with God that he grant what would be best for his eternal salvation. His illness returned and he was perfectly content with the turn things had taken, being fully persuaded that God had thus disposed of him for his own good. "

-- St. Alphonsus Liguori

So I am confused. Didn't Jesus always heal people?

dermdoc said:

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So I am confused. Didn't Jesus always heal people?

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No, not always.

I assume you are talking about then he went back home and nobody accepted Him for who He was? That seems different than the OP.

And edited to add Paul and his "thorn". But that was after the Resurrection. And I do not believe God gives us diseases like cancer but I sure know some Christians who do.

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And I do not believe God gives us diseases like cancer but I sure know some Christians who do.

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This. It's why I hate hearing the line "it's all part of God's plan" with stuff like cancer or death. No, one's child dying of cancer isn't God's plan. He can absolutely work through a situation, but He doesn't desire tragedy and death.

Yep. And as a doc if that is the case, why should I go against God's will and try to cure anybody? And why should Christians go to the doctor if it is God's will that they are sick(and I actually know some people like that).

dermdoc said:

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Yep. And as a doc if that is the case, why should I go against God's will and try to cure anybody? And why should Christians go to the doctor if it is God's will that they are sick(and I actually know some people like that).

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Not the mindset of the OP. He didn't ask for the disease back, but rather "that he grant what would be best for his eternal salvation."

dermdoc said:

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I assume you are talking about then he went back home and nobody accepted Him for who He was? That seems different than the OP.

And edited to add Paul and his "thorn". But that was after the Resurrection. And I do not believe God gives us diseases like cancer but I sure know some Christians who do.

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You think he healed every person in which he encountered on earth? Always, without exception?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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I assume you are talking about then he went back home and nobody accepted Him for who He was? That seems different than the OP.

And edited to add Paul and his "thorn". But that was after the Resurrection. And I do not believe God gives us diseases like cancer but I sure know some Christians who do.

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You think he healed every person in which he encountered on earth? Always, without exception?

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I don't know. Do you? And when he went home to Nazareth, from my reading of Scripture, it was because of the lack of belief of the folks who lived there that He did not do as much healing. Maybe you read it differently?

Do you believe God gives us diseases? And if so, am I sinning by trying to heal them?

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In this frame of mind he went back and asked the saint to intercede with God that he grant what would be best for his eternal salvation.

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The guy shows the right eternal perspective in that his desire is to chase what grows him in spiritual maturity the most however the sad news is that he seems a lost. He doesn't know that eternal salvation is a free gift from God on the basis of faith in Him.

For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day. John 6:40

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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I assume you are talking about then he went back home and nobody accepted Him for who He was? That seems different than the OP.

And edited to add Paul and his "thorn". But that was after the Resurrection. And I do not believe God gives us diseases like cancer but I sure know some Christians who do.

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You think he healed every person in which he encountered on earth? Always, without exception?

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I don't know. Do you? And when he went home to Nazareth, from my reading of Scripture, it was because of the lack of belief of the folks who lived there that He did not do as much healing. Maybe you read it differently?

Do you believe God gives us diseases? And if so, am I sinning by trying to heal them?

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You said always. I see no Biblical support for that.

And yes, God is in control of this world, including diseases and your ability to heal them.

I think St. Alphonsus is highlighting the meaning of suffering. Jesus said to pick up our cross (suffering) daily, and follow him, to Calvary. The man who was healed of his disease wondered if his suffering would be more beneficial to his gaining heaven than being healed was. Maybe he thought that the likelihood of sinning was greater if he was healed of his infirmity, than if he had the infirmity?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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I assume you are talking about then he went back home and nobody accepted Him for who He was? That seems different than the OP.

And edited to add Paul and his "thorn". But that was after the Resurrection. And I do not believe God gives us diseases like cancer but I sure know some Christians who do.

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You think he healed every person in which he encountered on earth? Always, without exception?

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I don't know. Do you? And when he went home to Nazareth, from my reading of Scripture, it was because of the lack of belief of the folks who lived there that He did not do as much healing. Maybe you read it differently?

Do you believe God gives us diseases? And if so, am I sinning by trying to heal them?

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You said always. I see no Biblical support for that.

And yes, God is in control of this world, including diseases and your ability to heal them.

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So you believe God gives people cancer? And that is His will?

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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I assume you are talking about then he went back home and nobody accepted Him for who He was? That seems different than the OP.

And edited to add Paul and his "thorn". But that was after the Resurrection. And I do not believe God gives us diseases like cancer but I sure know some Christians who do.

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You think he healed every person in which he encountered on earth? Always, without exception?

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I don't know. Do you? And when he went home to Nazareth, from my reading of Scripture, it was because of the lack of belief of the folks who lived there that He did not do as much healing. Maybe you read it differently?

Do you believe God gives us diseases? And if so, am I sinning by trying to heal them?

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You said always. I see no Biblical support for that.

And yes, God is in control of this world, including diseases and your ability to heal them.

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So you believe God gives people cancer? And that is His will?

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Of course. Cancer is not some entity that he can't control. Is he unable to heal it? Why has he given doctors the ability to heal some cases, but not others?

Thaddeus73 said:

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I think St. Alphonsus is highlighting the meaning of suffering. Jesus said to pick up our cross (suffering) daily, and follow him, to Calvary. The man who was healed of his disease wondered if his suffering would be more beneficial to his gaining heaven than being healed was. Maybe he thought that the likelihood of sinning was greater if he was healed of his infirmity, than if he had the infirmity?

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Rom. 5:3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Thaddeus73 said:

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I think St. Alphonsus is highlighting the meaning of suffering. Jesus said to pick up our cross (suffering) daily, and follow him, to Calvary. The man who was healed of his disease wondered if his suffering would be more beneficial to his gaining heaven than being healed was. Maybe he thought that the likelihood of sinning was greater if he was healed of his infirmity, than if he had the infirmity?

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Rom. 5:3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

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Agree. But that is totally different than God giving us cancer. Why then do we pray for healing if it is His will to give it to us?

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Thaddeus73 said:

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I think St. Alphonsus is highlighting the meaning of suffering. Jesus said to pick up our cross (suffering) daily, and follow him, to Calvary. The man who was healed of his disease wondered if his suffering would be more beneficial to his gaining heaven than being healed was. Maybe he thought that the likelihood of sinning was greater if he was healed of his infirmity, than if he had the infirmity?

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Rom. 5:3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

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Agree. But that is totally different than God giving us cancer. Why then do we pray for healing if it is His will to give it to us?

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Why pray if he's not in control of it?

God does bring evil to the world, according to Jeremiah...

Jeremiah 32:42

"For thus says the Lord: Just as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so I will bring upon them all the good that I promise them.

Because God loves us and does not want us to have cancer or anything else. Now does He allow it? Sure, I can go along with that as that is the story of Job. But I do not think God actively gives people diseases. Even though that would be great for my business.

dermdoc said:

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Because God loves us and does not want us to have cancer or anything else. Now does He allow it? Sure, I can go along with that as that is the story of Job. But I do not think God actively gives people diseases. Even though that would be great for my business.

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Does he actively take it away?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Because God loves us and does not want us to have cancer or anything else. Now does He allow it? Sure, I can go along with that as that is the story of Job. But I do not think God actively gives people diseases. Even though that would be great for my business.

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Does he actively take it away?

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Sure because He loves us and that is His character.

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Because God loves us and does not want us to have cancer or anything else. Now does He allow it? Sure, I can go along with that as that is the story of Job. But I do not think God actively gives people diseases. Even though that would be great for my business.

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Does he actively take it away?

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Sure because He loves us and that is His character.

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Why do people still have cancer then?

Because of evil and Satan. There is a difference between allowing evil and being the author of it.

Isaiah 45:5 I am YHVH, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am YHVH, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHVH do all these things.

While certainly no one likes to think of our loving God causing suffering, it's abundantly clear on several levels that He does so. Just read about Sodom, the end of Deut 29, or the plague on Israel after David's census. Not to mention the single most important one, the fact that Christ suffered and it was explicitly God's Will. We have consistent Old and New Testament textual evidence that suffering is God's Will and part of His overarching plan.

On a more theological level, who else would be responsible for suffering and illness? God created everything. If He wanted suffering to be gone it would be. There's no other entity that can make the world contrary to the way God wants it. You could argue that suffering is a result of sin, but that still leaves God as the one who set up a system where suffering results in sin.

I really like the Saint's quote in the OP. It shows a clear understanding that suffering has a purpose, and God knows what is better for our souls than we do. That's no to confuse God's prerogatives with ours. We are called to comfort, relieve suffering if possible, and not to inflict harm on each other.

dermdoc said:

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Because of evil and Satan. There is a difference between allowing evil and being the author of it.

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Cancer is amoral. How can it be evil?

dermdoc said:

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Because of evil and Satan. There is a difference between allowing evil and being the author of it.

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There really isn't a difference. If you have the power to stop evil, but let it continue, then you might as well be creating it.
Besides, who created evil and Satan and let them flourish?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Because of evil and Satan. There is a difference between allowing evil and being the author of it.

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Cancer is amoral. How can it be evil?

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Maybe so. It sure seemed evil when it destroyed my sister and one of my best friends.

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Because of evil and Satan. There is a difference between allowing evil and being the author of it.

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Cancer is amoral. How can it be evil?

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Maybe so. It sure seemed evil when it destroyed my sister and one of my best friends.

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The cancer that killed my grandmother had no evil intent. But I'm glad God was in control of it and the doctors who cared for her. Otherwise, it was some other entity that God has no control over.

It may be more nuanced than that. Man asks for healing and it is granted. Man asks for what is best for him and disease returns.

Both events could be seen as for his salvation, the healing, and the change in his mind.

Pffft. What a position to put God in. Assuming the story is true:

God does miracle! Yay! Go team God!
Guy starts doubting which is better for him and does the reversal request.
God.. scratches head..now which is better for the guy? Keep Him healthy, which God originally agreed to because He thought it was a good plan. However, keeping guy healthy is going to make guy say "ah! God thinks I deserve to be healthy! Look at me all righteous enough to be free from disease!" Which is clearly not good for the dude's health.

Or! He returns the disease. Guy feels self righteous because he knows he asked for it and look athim being all pious and becoming a story to be told throughout the ages, but at least it humbles him and hey, the guy has to eventually die somehow.


Kind of put God in a tight spot. The only good option is to give the disease back.

Or choose neither and run the guy over with a bus for being an ungrateful lout, but that's why I'm not God.

The two requests are different. One is specific - remove my disease. The other is humble - your will be done.

The first response could be seen as strengthening the man's faith that God is real, in control, and answers prayer. Armed with that knowledge the man is capable of asking for God's will to be done, and not his own.

The man's disease, or struggle, could be seen in a totally new light by him. The disease may always have been a path for his salvation. Prior to the first event, perhaps he could not see it that way.

But, yeah, probably just a story.

Pfft again.
If you are praying correctly, you will always pray that everything be done according to God's will. If this guy is as pious as all that, his original prayer would have been "Lord, if it be your will, heal me from my infirmity"

The guy second guessed God's will and thats why he got smallpox. It's his fault.

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Because of evil and Satan. There is a difference between allowing evil and being the author of it.

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When you define yourself as the Great I Am, it becomes a distinction without a difference.

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The cancer that killed my grandmother had no evil intent. But I'm glad God was in control of it and the doctors who cared for her. Otherwise, it was some other entity that God has no control over.chose not to control.

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FIFY. If God is omnipotent, then he can control cancer. So God is choosing not to control cancer, or choosing to use it to infect and/or kill people.