A realization

5,670 Views | 72 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Texaggie7nine
dds08
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The thought just occurred to me that, in this reality, this world we live in, the way things are set up; sin costs something. (pause and just let that sink in)

It costs.


The way justice itself is set up, sin costs something.


The act of sinning costs something that can only be truly remedied by the shedding of blood. Someone or something has to shed blood and maybe even die. That's the way it is. One may ask why it is this way but all the while, it's not going to change. It is what it is.


When the first sin was committed on earth, no one factored in how humans were going to pay for it, or fix it, or atone for it ( or what they were going to do with it at all. this kinda reminds me of our national debt) .
No one said, okay I plan on committing X sin and paying for it by doing _________ . (This got lost somewhere. )

It can almost be described as a transaction: You do ________ (sin) and you pay by doing _____ .


Having said all that, any action that is not sin costs relatively nothing. No blood must be shed for righteous actions initially, on the front end, per se.


Just thinking out loud.
Texaggie7nine
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Quote:

The act of sinning costs something that can only be truly remedied by the shedding of blood.
This is a concept made up and passed on by blood sacrifice religions thousands of years older than Christianity and even before Judaism. It makes no sense with today's knowledge of how the universe works, but it is a strong culturally passed on concept.
7nine
BusterAg
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I disagree with the OP.

Sin does cost something. It creates pain and suffering for you and for the human race. The blood sacrifice thing is just an allegory for the destruction that sin causes.
Tramp96
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dds08 said:


When the first sin was committed on earth, no one factored in how humans were going to pay for it, or fix it, or atone for it ( or what they were going to do with it at all.


Because we are unable to pay for it. We can do nothing to pay for our sins. NOTHING.

This is why Christ had to pay our debt for us. There was no other way. This is why in Genesis 3 God made a covenant to Adam & Eve and all of their descendants that we would be redeemed through their offspring. That offspring was Christ...the 2nd person of the Trinity who was incarnate and made man.

So to make a correction to your statement....when you say no one factored in how humans were going to pay for it...well, that's wrong. God factored in how sin would be paid. The wages of sin is death. God knew then this was the only way to redeem his creation. The entire Old Testament points to Christ and God's covenant. Christ, the perfect lamb, took on our sins, died, and then defeated death so that we may live.
DeSantis 2024
PabloSerna
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I think it is great that you are really thinking this through. First, for me, is to define a couple of terms:

1. What is sin? When you miss the mark? That which was intended maybe? Do some research on that topic. I have come to the understanding (Aquinas) that sin, is a morally bad act. It separates us from God and harms us not just physically, but spiritually as well. That is why, masturbation is a harmful.. where some may say it hurts no one - it does great damage to your soul.

2. It cost something. Indeed you have come across a basis for the "treasure of grace" and taking that road you will come upon the doctrine of indulgences.

3. The blood thing - yeah JC did away with that when he died on the cross once and for all. But you are staring down "this is my body, given up for you" - "this is my blood, shed for you" - great stuff!

+Pablo
dds08
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Tramp96 said:

dds08 said:


When the first sin was committed on earth, no one factored in how humans were going to pay for it, or fix it, or atone for it ( or what they were going to do with it at all.


Because we are unable to pay for it. We can do nothing to pay for our sins. NOTHING.

This is why Christ had to pay our debt for us. There was no other way. This is why in Genesis 3 God made a covenant to Adam & Eve and all of their descendants that we would be redeemed through their offspring. That offspring was Christ...the 2nd person of the Trinity who was incarnate and made man.

So to make a correction to your statement....when you say no one factored in how humans were going to pay for it...well, that's wrong. God factored in how sin would be paid. The wages of sin is death. God knew then this was the only way to redeem his creation. The entire Old Testament points to Christ and God's covenant. Christ, the perfect lamb, took on our sins, died, and then defeated death so that we may live.
Okay well, of course, God had a solution, but humans on their own did not.
dds08
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Just trying to take an objective, yet different, perspective on human behavior when it comes to sin....

It seems rare with human actions that a cost/benefit analysis to weigh options (whether righteous or sinful) occurs; of course, this type of analysis is not always convenient or even possible due to time restrictions.



Edit: But aside from all that, there is something spiritually significant and dynamic that takes place when sin occurs that piques my curiosity.

As soon as any being somewhere commits a sin, there is a need for a remedy that must be met. It occupies space and exists and takes life in and of itself. Kinda sorta like the US national debt in laments terms. It accrues interest in a way as well till it's paid off. Interest in the form of bad patterns/habits that may arise in a being if one doesn't turn around and pay it off some kind of way(if it can be paid off and IF the whole debacle is not already beyond a point of no return).

Edit: Sin can kinda sorta be compared to pollution in this realm of ours as well as the spiritual realm (since we know that God knows about it and abhors it).
dds08
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PabloSerna said:

I think it is great that you are really thinking this through. First, for me, is to define a couple of terms:

1. What is sin? When you miss the mark? That which was intended maybe? Do some research on that topic. I have come to the understanding (Aquinas) that sin, is a morally bad act. It separates us from God and harms us not just physically, but spiritually as well. That is why, masturbation is a harmful.. where some may say it hurts no one - it does great damage to your soul.

2. It cost something. Indeed you have come across a basis for the "treasure of grace" and taking that road you will come upon the doctrine of indulgences.

3. The blood thing - yeah JC did away with that when he died on the cross once and for all. But you are staring down "this is my body, given up for you" - "this is my blood, shed for you" - great stuff!

+Pablo

I ponder on the Adam and Eve story and wonder how informed Eve was before she made her decision. Even with sin today, we are not given all the facts. Sin is like the snake-oil salesman who withholds information and doesn't give you all the facts. What are the costs/benefits with eating of this tree/NOT eating of this tree? What is the cost/benefit of telling this white lie/being honest, frank?
Texaggie7nine
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She was told "don't do it because I said so". That is the point of a lot of the bible. It's a way to push a morality that cannot be questioned. If our made up god says to do it, we do it. Don't question why we do it.
7nine
PabloSerna
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dds08 said:

PabloSerna said:

I think it is great that you are really thinking this through. First, for me, is to define a couple of terms:

1. What is sin? When you miss the mark? That which was intended maybe? Do some research on that topic. I have come to the understanding (Aquinas) that sin, is a morally bad act. It separates us from God and harms us not just physically, but spiritually as well. That is why, masturbation is a harmful.. where some may say it hurts no one - it does great damage to your soul.

2. It cost something. Indeed you have come across a basis for the "treasure of grace" and taking that road you will come upon the doctrine of indulgences.

3. The blood thing - yeah JC did away with that when he died on the cross once and for all. But you are staring down "this is my body, given up for you" - "this is my blood, shed for you" - great stuff!

+Pablo

I ponder on the Adam and Eve story and wonder how informed Eve was before she made her decision. Even with sin today, we are not given all the facts. Sin is like the snake-oil salesman who withholds information and doesn't give you all the facts. What are the costs/benefits with eating of this tree/NOT eating of this tree? What is the cost/benefit of telling this white lie/being honest, frank?
The creation narrative is a great example of God's love, mercy, and justice in action.

1. By his love he gave them a rule, if you will, but more importantly a boundary. This was to preserve the order of The Garden of Eden, if you will. More importantly, God did not remove man's freewill. However, he cautioned him (only Adam from what I can tell) about the consequences of eating of the fruit - namely death. Understand that in this case, death is not what we think of it in today's terms, but rather, a fall from an immortal life due to sin. Sin, being, a choice against God's will for us.

1A. One other aspect of The Garden of Eden, is the fact that man walked with God (the Father) in a very real and present way. It would not be until Jesus (the Son), that man would be able to do this again. As a Catholic, this is one of the most important aspects of the Eucharist, because we venerate the "real presence", body, blood, soul and divinity. We fully believe that the Holy Spirit has carried on this reality even today.

2. His mercy was shown when he sent Jesus (the Son) to repair this relationship. As an architect, this is wonderfully shown in the motifs, and sacred art of many churches. At my home parish of the Cathedral of St. Mary in downtown Austin, the altar has a wonderful "tree of life" depicted.

3. His Justice was the expulsion from the Garden. As harsh as it seems, Adam and Eve did sin and the cost of this was death. However, as you have rightly pointed out, Jesus has paid the price - and it is the will of God that all hear and come to the table.

++ A note about sin. I remember in my youth asking a priest friend of mine about human deformations, human genetic dispositions to crime (serial killer), etc. His answer was that original sin, and sin period, is like plutonium. Holding a chunk of it in your hand - it would not seem harmful. However, the harm was at the microscopic level. So it was with sin. He made a point that other people's sin had an effect on us as well.

+Pablo


PabloSerna
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Texaggie7nine said:

She was told "don't do it because I said so". That is the point of a lot of the bible. It's a way to push a morality that cannot be questioned. If our made up god says to do it, we do it. Don't question why we do it.

I remember a friend of mine had a favorite saying.. 'The City Planning Department is like an old testament god - a lot of rules and no mercy!'

You two would have good time.

On a serious note, I cannot help but suspect that this is where you have the most trouble with the so-called "made up god." It would appear that this god is bossy and intolerant. It would further seem likely that this god is disconnected, unapproachable, archaic, and just nasty. As weird as it seems, try this, draw a picture of God and post it or tell me about it.

I will do the same.

+Pablo

Woody2006
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Sin is a man-made concept
Texaggie7nine
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PabloSerna said:

Texaggie7nine said:

She was told "don't do it because I said so". That is the point of a lot of the bible. It's a way to push a morality that cannot be questioned. If our made up god says to do it, we do it. Don't question why we do it.

I remember a friend of mine had a favorite saying.. 'The City Planning Department is like an old testament god - a lot of rules and no mercy!'

You two would have good time.

On a serious note, I cannot help but suspect that this is where you have the most trouble with the so-called "made up god." It would appear that this god is bossy and intolerant. It would further seem likely that this god is disconnected, unapproachable, archaic, and just nasty. As weird as it seems, try this, draw a picture of God and post it or tell me about it.

I will do the same.

+Pablo




My problem is not with the concept of sin. I was a strong Christian for over 25 years. My problem is with the concept of heaven and hell.
7nine
BusterAg
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JP has an interesting take on Hell as well.
Texaggie7nine
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Ya, that its here on earth.
7nine
BusterAg
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That it can be here on earth, anyways.
DirtDiver
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Quote:

Sin is a man-made concept

Agree. Thanks Adam.

If sin is simply a man made concept I must ask, do you lock your doors at night?
dds08
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DirtDiver said:


Quote:

Sin is a man-made concept

Agree. Thanks Adam.

If sin is simply a man made concept I must ask, do you lock your doors at night?
I read somewhere that native Americans were amazed that people would walk around with metal in their pockets for the sole purpose of gaining exclusive entry into places/things.

On the other hand, stealing is a manmade concept.
Woody2006
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DirtDiver said:


Quote:

Sin is a man-made concept

Agree. Thanks Adam.

If sin is simply a man made concept I must ask, do you lock your doors at night?
I didn't say people don't do bad things. Of course they do.

The difference is when people do bad things to me, they do them to me. The concept of sin suggests they really did a bad thing to an ethereal being somewhere else, when actually it's me they did something to.

DirtDiver
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I didn't say people don't do bad things. Of course they do.

The difference is when people do bad things to me, they do them to me. The concept of sin suggests they really did a bad thing to an ethereal being somewhere else, when actually it's me they did something to.

You actually need God to justify your position. People do 'bad' things according to which absolute standard? You are assuming there is such a thing as good and bad and acting as if it's absolute and not relative and that we should all understand what 'bad' is.
PabloSerna
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Woody2006 said:

DirtDiver said:


Quote:

Sin is a man-made concept

Agree. Thanks Adam.

If sin is simply a man made concept I must ask, do you lock your doors at night?
I didn't say people don't do bad things. Of course they do.

The difference is when people do bad things to me, they do them to me. The concept of sin suggests they really did a bad thing to an ethereal being somewhere else, when actually it's me they did something to.


I agree that sin affects the person more directly and indirectly all of us. Your concept of an "ethereal being" is just one aspect of God. Jesus talked about the "Body of Christ" - what happens to one affects the rest. So in that regard, sin to one part of the body is sin to the whole body, therefore God.

+Pablo
PabloSerna
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Texaggie7nine said:

PabloSerna said:

Texaggie7nine said:

She was told "don't do it because I said so". That is the point of a lot of the bible. It's a way to push a morality that cannot be questioned. If our made up god says to do it, we do it. Don't question why we do it.

I remember a friend of mine had a favorite saying.. 'The City Planning Department is like an old testament god - a lot of rules and no mercy!'

You two would have good time.

On a serious note, I cannot help but suspect that this is where you have the most trouble with the so-called "made up god." It would appear that this god is bossy and intolerant. It would further seem likely that this god is disconnected, unapproachable, archaic, and just nasty. As weird as it seems, try this, draw a picture of God and post it or tell me about it.

I will do the same.

+Pablo




My problem is not with the concept of sin. I was a strong Christian for over 25 years. My problem is with the concept of heaven and hell.
If you want, I'd like to know what the "problem" is?

Being Catholic, we actually think in terms of Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory. This other reality, sometimes referred to in the Bible as Sheol, is a state of purification as a consequence of God;s Mercy and Justice. What is really interesting for me to have come to understand is that we choose Hell. Why? Probably because once we see our true soul laid bare before God, we feel like we do not deserve God's mercy. If you remember anything from me, it's that God's mercy is always there for you - you just need to choose it. Satan, a title for what is essentially, the prosecutor, will argue why you do not deserve Heaven - I pray that I remember the thief on the cross and ask for the same mercy offered, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom."

What an awesome response given by our Lord when he replied, "This day, you will be with me in Paradise."

+Pablo


Woody2006
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DirtDiver said:


Quote:

I didn't say people don't do bad things. Of course they do.

The difference is when people do bad things to me, they do them to me. The concept of sin suggests they really did a bad thing to an ethereal being somewhere else, when actually it's me they did something to.

You actually need God to justify your position. People do 'bad' things according to which absolute standard? You are assuming there is such a thing as good and bad and acting as if it's absolute and not relative and that we should all understand what 'bad' is.
We don't need God to follow the golden rule. It's actually pretty simple to know if you are doing something wrong to someone else, because you know if you would like it or dislike it if it happened to you.

No need to act as if God is necessary for empathy to occur.
PabloSerna
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Woody2006 said:

DirtDiver said:


Quote:

I didn't say people don't do bad things. Of course they do.

The difference is when people do bad things to me, they do them to me. The concept of sin suggests they really did a bad thing to an ethereal being somewhere else, when actually it's me they did something to.

You actually need God to justify your position. People do 'bad' things according to which absolute standard? You are assuming there is such a thing as good and bad and acting as if it's absolute and not relative and that we should all understand what 'bad' is.
We don't need God to follow the golden rule. It's actually pretty simple to know if you are doing something wrong to someone else, because you know if you would like it or dislike it if it happened to you.

No need to act as if God is necessary for empathy to occur.
Ah.. Natural Law. If you go down that route, you will end up with the whole God question. I agree we are "hard wired" - just attribute this to my soul (image of God) and not so much my animal.

+Pablo
DirtDiver
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Quote:

We don't need God to follow the golden rule. It's actually pretty simple to know if you are doing something wrong to someone else, because you know if you would like it or dislike it if it happened to you.
Following the golden rule has nothing to do with justifying why a person should or should not follow the golden rule. You are using "wrong" as if there's an absolute right and wrong that everyone should recognize. According to your descriptors above, if a person enjoys pain via various avenues there's nothing wrong them causing pain to others.

Empathy can be a good thing but do much empathy can be dangerous and not beneficial.

"It's simple to know when you are doing something wrong" - because God has written his law on our hearts and our conscious which is a good gift from God convicts us.
Woody2006
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PabloSerna said:

Woody2006 said:

DirtDiver said:


Quote:

I didn't say people don't do bad things. Of course they do.

The difference is when people do bad things to me, they do them to me. The concept of sin suggests they really did a bad thing to an ethereal being somewhere else, when actually it's me they did something to.

You actually need God to justify your position. People do 'bad' things according to which absolute standard? You are assuming there is such a thing as good and bad and acting as if it's absolute and not relative and that we should all understand what 'bad' is.
We don't need God to follow the golden rule. It's actually pretty simple to know if you are doing something wrong to someone else, because you know if you would like it or dislike it if it happened to you.

No need to act as if God is necessary for empathy to occur.
Ah.. Natural Law. If you go down that route, you will end up with the whole God question. I agree we are "hard wired" - just attribute this to my soul (image of God) and not so much my animal.
We observe other animals forming cooperative social systems. Our brains are much more developed, so you'd expect less complexity and less impulse control out of other animals, but it isn't just humans that know what is "right" or "wrong".

Saying God hardwired "right" and "wrong" into you ignores the multitude of other animal species that have a cooperative social structure in which freeloading or theft is punished and hard work or sharing are rewarded.
DirtDiver
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Saying God hardwired "right" and "wrong" into you ignores the multitude of other animal species that have a cooperative social structure in which freeloading or theft is punished and hard work or sharing are rewarded.

God giving humans a conscious has nothing to do with cooperative social structures in animals.


Woody2006
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DirtDiver said:


Quote:

Saying God hardwired "right" and "wrong" into you ignores the multitude of other animal species that have a cooperative social structure in which freeloading or theft is punished and hard work or sharing are rewarded.

God giving humans a conscious has nothing to do with cooperative social structures in animals.




You're assuming he gave it to us, rather than it being innate.

No reason to believe it took a God to give it to us when we see similar behaviors in other animal species.

In the end, that's all we are... a species of animal.
dds08
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dds08 said:

The thought just occurred to me that, in this reality, this world we live in, the way things are set up; sin costs something. (pause and just let that sink in)

It costs.


The way justice itself is set up, sin costs something.


The act of sinning costs something that can only be truly remedied by the shedding of blood. Someone or something has to shed blood and maybe even die. That's the way it is. One may ask why it is this way but all the while, it's not going to change. It is what it is.


Having said all that, any action that is not sin costs relatively nothing. No blood must be shed for righteous actions initially, on the front end, per se.


Just thinking out loud.


I want to add that the opportunity cost of sin IMO, seems so easy to overlook. The thought occurred to me that when we act righteously, hit the mark, we inherit a blessing of some kind which is not always perceptible, or realized. Moreover, no one has to die. Someone somewhere gets to keep on living.

Therefore, is it fair to say a life (either ours or someone else's or both) is up in the air once sin is done? Once sin is done, abundant life, as Jesus spoke of, stops, or is perhaps interrupted?

For Adam and Eve, it was being allowed to stay in the Garden and literally walking with God in the Garden. The opportunity cost of the white lie is trustworthiness, and peace of mind knowing that no one has been deceived.

Edit: After posting this I realize some of these are just consequences, not necessarily opportunity costs. Hmm. back to where we started. What could be considered an opportunity cost of sin, any sin?
dds08
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Woody2006 said:

DirtDiver said:


Quote:

Saying God hardwired "right" and "wrong" into you ignores the multitude of other animal species that have a cooperative social structure in which freeloading or theft is punished and hard work or sharing are rewarded.

God giving humans a conscious has nothing to do with cooperative social structures in animals.




You're assuming he gave it to us, rather than it being innate.

No reason to believe it took a God to give it to us when we see similar behaviors in other animal species.

In the end, that's all we are... a species of animal.

Do we call animals into court to account for their actions in any justice system on this earth like we do humans? If not, why?
DirtDiver
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You're assuming he gave it to us, rather than it being innate. No reason to believe it took a God to give it to us when we see similar behaviors in other animal species.
It would be an assumption if it wasn't revelation.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


Quote:

In the end, that's all we are... a species of animal.
We have similarities with animals but that could also point to a single designer. Similar but distinct.

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Woody2006
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No offense, but using scripture as a response is not a persuasive argument.
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Woody2006
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JJMt said:

Grizzly males frequently kill cubs, supposedly in order to allow their mother to get into estrus more quickly. No one thinks that is immoral or that the males should be punished for that behavior.

However, if a human male were to engage in the same or similar behavior, it would be widely condemned as heinous and immoral.

Why, if we are essentially the same as grizzlies?
Grizzlies don't care when humans kill each other just like they don't care when sharks rape each other.

We aren't essentially the same species as grizzlies, though. That's a silly statement.
Texaggie7nine
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JJMt said:

Grizzly males frequently kill cubs, supposedly in order to allow their mother to get into estrus more quickly. No one thinks that is immoral or that the males should be punished for that behavior.

However, if a human male were to engage in the same or similar behavior, it would be widely condemned as heinous and immoral.

Why, if we are essentially the same as grizzlies?


Grizzlies aren't capable of reason.
7nine
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