Church split

2,393 Views | 26 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Redstone
yippee2
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AG
Have you ever been through a split?
BusterAg
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AG
Two. Can be brutal.
Win At Life
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AG
Had a youth pastor take a group and start his own church. It worked out nicely only because the main pastor was very gracious about it and sent them off with wishes, prayers and money to help them get started.
SoulSlaveAG2005
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AG
1054 and 1517.

Dark years for the Church.
yippee2
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AG
What were the reasons?

Also, have you ever seen a church recover from a near split?
Redstone
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AG
My uncle is a fairly well known SBC pastor.

This church, in which I spent my late teenage years, split by about 1/3 (2/3 or so "agreed" with my uncle) over the nature of grace / salvation.

Intelligent, good-faith, well-meaning, well-read people on both "sides," with the same Bible.

Does the Spirit speak against Himself, especially on such a fundamental issue?

One of the reasons I converted to Catholicism.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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AG
I guess the Holy Spirit can be misunderstood even by those with good intentions...
ramblin_ag02
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AG
Quote:

Does the Spirit speak against Himself, especially on such a fundamental issue?

One of the reasons I converted to Catholicism.
If you ask me the whole problem was born of Catholicism in the first place. There is a fundamental part of Catholicism that doesn't tolerate any dissent. Despite all the other reforms made by the initial Protestants, they took that intolerance of dissent to heart. Even a church of 15 people can't tolerate having 3 of them disagree with the pastor on a point of theology. To me the problem isn't difference of opinion, but lack of tolerance for difference of opinion. Catholicism avoids the constant schisms but asserting authority and demanding submission. Protestant churches can't do that, because they existy by defying that authority. So instead you end up with repeated schisms, but the root cause is the same
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Dad-O-Lot
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AG
ramblin_ag02 said:

Quote:

Does the Spirit speak against Himself, especially on such a fundamental issue?

One of the reasons I converted to Catholicism.
If you ask me the whole problem was born of Catholicism in the first place. There is a fundamental part of Catholicism that doesn't tolerate any dissent. Despite all the other reforms made by the initial Protestants, they took that intolerance of dissent to heart. Even a church of 15 people can't tolerate having 3 of them disagree with the pastor on a point of theology. To me the problem isn't difference of opinion, but lack of tolerance for difference of opinion. Catholicism avoids the constant schisms but asserting authority and demanding submission. Protestant churches can't do that, because they existy by defying that authority. So instead you end up with repeated schisms, but the root cause is the same
There are actually only a few things in the Catholic Church that demand submission.

There is a tremendous variety of opinion in the Catholic Church and much tolerance for these variations.

People of integrity expect to be believed, when they're not, they let time prove them right.
Redstone
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AG
Apostolic spiritual authority means that even a very highly problematic figure such as Francis can only do and mean so much.

On the other hand, there are direct "lines" of division upon division, such as these -

and NO I am NOT saying this is inevitable, or in some way an "up line" is responsible:

High Church Anglican - Low Anglican - Methodist - Seventh Day Adventist - Branch Davidian - Students of the Seven Seals (Koresh)

The point is that "Bible alone" doesn't work. It is insufficient for faith, morals, and worship.

The Bible is a product of the Apostolic Church, and must be in its context.
AGC
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AG
yippee2 said:

What were the reasons?

Also, have you ever seen a church recover from a near split?


Yes but slightly different. Two campuses and the main pastor was overwhelmed by what he chose to do in tending both flocks to the point it impacted his marriage and job satisfaction. He decided to remain at one of the two and make the other into a separate church. Some people were upset and moved to his campus but it wasn't doctrinal. Both churches are doing well and have a good relationship between the pastors. There was probably more conflict at lower levels, such as finance, with each campus having their own needs and committees but no hostility.
AGC
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AG
Dad-O-Lot said:

ramblin_ag02 said:

Quote:

Does the Spirit speak against Himself, especially on such a fundamental issue?

One of the reasons I converted to Catholicism.
If you ask me the whole problem was born of Catholicism in the first place. There is a fundamental part of Catholicism that doesn't tolerate any dissent. Despite all the other reforms made by the initial Protestants, they took that intolerance of dissent to heart. Even a church of 15 people can't tolerate having 3 of them disagree with the pastor on a point of theology. To me the problem isn't difference of opinion, but lack of tolerance for difference of opinion. Catholicism avoids the constant schisms but asserting authority and demanding submission. Protestant churches can't do that, because they existy by defying that authority. So instead you end up with repeated schisms, but the root cause is the same
There are actually only a few things in the Catholic Church that demand submission.

There is a tremendous variety of opinion in the Catholic Church and much tolerance for these variations.




Must be a post-Luther thing...
PabloSerna
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AG
"Very few people hate the Catholic Church. However, many people hate what they THINK the Catholic Church is about." - Fulton Sheen

There appear to be quite a few knowledgeable Catholic here to explain better than I that the opposite of what you believe may be more true. The Church has been more tolerant of Liberal Theology than many would be comfortable with for example. Ask about Adam and Eve.. you will find some conflicting points of view.

But that Jesus is God.. light from light, true God from true God.... that prayer.. That my friend is where the beef is! And THAT is where the schism began.

+Pablo

ramblin_ag02
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AG
Sure, as long as you don't count:

Divorce
Birth control
Women as clergy
Married men as clergy
Immaculate conception
Works as necessary for salvation
Infant baptism
Unleavened Eucharist
Veneration of Saints
Veneration of Icons
Sunday Worship
Crucifix not empty cross
Using Natural Law as a basis for human behavior
Being permissive of alcohol
Permitting instruments in worship
Godhead as a Trinity
Adherence to the Filoque
Papal primacy
Support for monasticism
Intolerance of homosexuality
Intolerance of fornication
Belief in purgatory

You know, all the things churches actually continue to split over. If you don't count all those things, then there is a wide variety of acceptable Catholic beliefs
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The Fife
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yippee2 said:

Have you ever been through a split?
Yes. The church building was about 70 years old at that point. It was a few blocks from the square downtown, needed expansion and extensive renovation, but that wasn't possible given city codes regarding parking. There were too many people that attended and no way to acquire nearby land to turn into parking.

Talk began about moving to a new location. Right away a large number of the old people were against it because they remembered collecting change as kids for the current building way back when and whatever else. They left along with however many other people didn't want to move for some other reason (there goes your problem with too many attendees!), I'd say attendance went down by about 1/3 or more over the next couple of years. The church did finally move, about 15 years later once the congregation could finally be rebuilt.
PacifistAg
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One of my former churches lost about 35% for simply having a discussion on expanding the role of women. Of those that left, the majority left when the discussion began. The rest left when women were given such radical roles, such as collecting the offering and passing the communion plates down the rows.
swimmerbabe11
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Why is that neccessary? Why are the men incapable of standing up and passing the collection plate?
Dad-O-Lot
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ramblin_ag02 said:

Sure, as long as you don't count:

Divorce
Birth control
Women as clergy
Married men as clergy
Immaculate conception
Works as necessary for salvation
Infant baptism
Unleavened Eucharist
Veneration of Saints
Veneration of Icons
Sunday Worship
Crucifix not empty cross
Using Natural Law as a basis for human behavior
Being permissive of alcohol
Permitting instruments in worship
Godhead as a Trinity
Adherence to the Filoque
Papal primacy
Support for monasticism
Intolerance of homosexuality
Intolerance of fornication
Belief in purgatory

You know, all the things churches actually continue to split over. If you don't count all those things, then there is a wide variety of acceptable Catholic beliefs
You will find practicing Catholics, and even Catholic Priests and Bishops, who have a variety of beliefs with regard to almost every one of the items on your list; and they are all still considered Catholic.

The items in your list that I might consider more dogmatic are:

Immaculate Conception
Godhead as a Trinity

Most of the others are more practices rather than dogma; some are philosophy, and others are considered by many in the Church Hierarchy to be matters of personal conscience.

Some obvious examples of this accepted variety are:

Married men as clergy. There are married Priests in the Catholic Church. Deacons are clergy and they are almost always married.

Divorce is rarely discussed in practice and I believe it is a very low percentage of requests for annulment are rejected.

No one is required to venerate anything.

No one is required to "support" monasticism.

Some priests appear to celebrate homosexuality and fornication.

Fornication is treated much like divorce. Rarely mentioned at all.

People of integrity expect to be believed, when they're not, they let time prove them right.
nortex97
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AG
I listened to an interesting history from a presbyterian perspective yesterday on a flight; from the "Confessing Our Hope" series, podcast 3 (season 1), "The demise of PCUS and formation of the PCA."

Perspectives on reformed church history/"schisms" are intriguing to me. One side is very rarely "100% correct."
PacifistAg
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AG
swimmerbabe11 said:

Why is that neccessary? Why are the men incapable of standing up and passing the collection plate?

Men and women do it at my old church now. The only change was allowing women to also serve in that capacity.

Heck, it was such a minor change because the number that left after they just had the discussion. They'd brought in a professor from ACU (was at a Church of Christ) to discuss biblical arguments of complementarianism and egalitarianism. Simply having that conversation was enough to make many leave.
swimmerbabe11
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Im not saying that I would leave a church over it, but I would definitely be crotchety and say that the men could stand their lazy selves up and walk around with the plates and that they didnt need the women to do it.
M
PacifistAg
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AG
swimmerbabe11 said:

Im not saying that I would leave a church over it, but I would definitely be crotchety and say that the men could stand their lazy selves up and walk around with the plates and that they didnt need the women to do it.
M
Oh, it wasn't due to a lack of willingness on men's part to do it. It was simply about expanding some of the roles for women to serve at the church.
swimmerbabe11
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Oh thats how it starts alright. Then you menfolk want us doing alllllll the heavy lifting and we can't even find one of you around when it's time to do the important stuff!

(Half joking)
PacifistAg
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swimmerbabe11 said:

Oh thats how it starts alright. Then you menfolk want us doing alllllll the heavy lifting and we can't even find one of you around when it's time to do the important stuff!

(Half joking)
Frok
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AG
The role of women is starting to be something that is popping up in my church. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it. When I see a push to put women in leadership roles in the church I wonder what the motivation is. I'm not a staunch, women can't ever have any role, but I don't want to ignore scripture where roles are clearly assigned to men.

swimmerbabe11
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The story of Jael teaches us that women are capable of doing the things men can do, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a failure on the men's part to do those things.
DVC2010
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swimmerbabe11 said:

The story of Jael teaches us that women are capable of doing the things men can do, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a failure on the men's part to do those things.

It's also why I will never let the women set up the tent on camping trips.
Redstone
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AG
Some degree of division is inevitable: we are human, after all. But consider the Council of Jerusalem, where St. James brokered a very fractious, contentious debate about circumcision and what it meant to follow the law of Moses in the context of Christ.

It was contentious, it lasted quite a while, it was heated, the discussion was important.

And then....the Church decided. There was no division upon division. The Bible came from this Church, a product of councils. Says something important about the Church! It is visible, and it endures.
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