Jordan Peterson statement on belief in God.

5,545 Views | 53 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Texaggie7nine
Texaggie7nine
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Pretty good interview to listen to. Though I wished it could have gone a little deeper as Prager can be a deep thinker sometimes when he has the right guest.
However the topic of this thread is on Jordan Peterson's take on whether or not he believes in God.

I am a big fan of Peterson and follow him quite closely. As someone who is no longer a "true believer" I do admit his lecture series on the Bible really turned me around on understanding the profound significance of and good that has come from the book, though I still do not think it to be divinely written.

His take that he professes in this interview, which is at 9:48 if you don't want to listen to the entire interview, is that it is dangerous to say that you "believe" in God because to truly be a believer you would live out that truth 100% every day. So instead he says "he tries to live as if there were a god". I have no problem with living that way, or claiming to live that way. What I want to dissect is his implication that one is only a TRUE believer if he lives exactly as he would believe the god he believes in wants him to. He makes no ties to salvation or anything, he is just speaking to the essence of being a "believer".

You really just need to listen to the whole explanation he gives in the video.

My contention is that one does not need to live a 100% authentic life to literally believe in a god, be it the christian one or whatever.

I see it similar to the question "do you love your mom?"

You can absolutely, 100% love your mother, yet you will still have many instances of disobeying her.
Would you say that in the moment of disobeying your mom, like lying to her about doing your homework, that you did not love her?

I get that Peterson is really trying to look at the question on a meta level, as he does most everything, but I don't follow with his logic on this one.

What is your take?
7nine
Aggrad08
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AG
I like a lot of what Peterson says, even some of the things I disagree with. But frankly, he's chicken **** on this subject. As to whether he believes in god or Jesus he gives incredibly non-commital comments. Stating as you said, that we should live as if there is god regardless. I saw him in a video doing a talk with Sam Harris, where he was asked if Jesus rose from the grave and said something to the effect of it would take a week to answer that question, Sam said how's this for an answer, almost certainly not.

That he holds a well thought out and nuanced view I don't doubt, I do doubt that he's incapable of articulating or summarizing it.

I generally agree that's it's false to so strictly tie belief to action. Sinners aren't temporary atheists. In that moment they care less about the laws of their religion than the benefit of breaking them and are probably by their own admission not acting rationally with respect to their beliefs.
Madman
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AG


I think my link is related to yours.
Texaggie7nine
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He definitely uses the argument to make a very moving case for how meaningful religions like Christianity are. But he really side steps the overall issue.

He says he tries to live as IF god exists, but which variation of God? Because how you should live differs quite a bit based on if you follow the god of Islam, or the god of Christianity or the god of Hinduism, ect. So which god does he try to life as if he existed?

7nine
BusterAg
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AG
I also think JP wimps out on this issue. He doesn't want to alienate readers, wants to keep a non religious identity, but his whole career has been about the foundations of western values, and how helpful they have been to humanity, and how dangerous and damaging the world can quickly become if you put too much distance between your society and Judeao Christian values.

To answer your question, I believe that Jesus and God taught us how to live the fullest life as individuals and as a society. The issue is that sometimes we temporarily disagree with Jesus on what is going to make us happy /fulfilled. We are tempted by the easy / shiny thing. We behave inconsistently with our faith. That is sin. It hurts us, hurts others.

But I find no distinction between living your life as though you believe and believing. In my mind, JP is creating a false distinction between faith and belief. You can't 100% know that there is a God. But the way that a Christian approaches the world and lives their life stems from a decision to put faith in the idea that there is a God.
BusterAg
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Quote:

I admit his lecture series on the Bible really turned me around on understanding the profound significance of and good that has come from the book, though I still do not think it to be divinely written.


It is a great lecture series. The stories and their implications are so familiar and so ingrained in our cultural that we can forget where they came from. Most of western literature is a dirivitive work on some facet of human existence that is addressed in the old stories in the Bible. It really is impressive and an important part of who we are.
94chem
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All that does not come from faith is sin, according to the Bible. Or put another way, anything short of moral perfection indicates lack of belief in God. So, I have a conundrum. I am either a sinner who does not believe in God, or I am perfect and don't need God. This is an odd lack of dialectic, it seems.
PabloSerna
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Was nice to find this thread. I must admit that this is an old question that I worked my way through as a youth (I'm 51 years old now) that I do not think will ever go away. Namely, "Is belief in God rational?" For me... let me repeat that... for me, I am happy and thankful for the GRACE of God to say.. "I believe."


"Who would have the audacity to say, 'I believe in God.'" - Mr. Peterson asks.

1. The terms!
a. Define God.
b. Define Belief.

2. He presents an "all or nothing" scenario. I have come to appreciate the 'both, and" approach. Faith and Reason are basis for this understanding. 'Fides et Ratio' if you have the time, worth reading.

3. For me again, as a Catholic, there I said it, I am grateful, for the incredible minds that devoted their lives to answering these type of questions and more. Great minds like Thomas Aquinas! I am still learning, but I can say, that I have moved past this initial question. But not without the grace of God. Plain and simple. To truly believe, you need grace. Grace as you already know, is a gift. If you only ask, "God give me the grace to understand... insert topic." It is as simple as stepping back and asking an even more basic question, "Can we KNOW God?" or my favorite, "Is God self-evident."

4. I take his comment to mean exactly that, "who am I to say 'I believe'?" - as if I can be so bold! Is it audacious to claim this knowledge ? Can we really KNOW God? Again these are old questions that have been debated time and time again. In the end, if God, is by definition "God" then he is infinite - right? Then how can a finite being "know" that which is infinite? Only by the grace of ... yup... God!

5. What I do agree with him - is the implication of this belief. Meaning it is life changing. Not many people are ready for that. Thankfully, we are called to be faithful - more than we are called to be perfect. So I have accepted my faults and continue to work out my "faith in fear and trembling" (google that).

+Pablo



PA24
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No matter where u turn, there he is.




Keep searching and you will soon fine the answers u r looking for.
BusterAg
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In the end, if God, is by definition "God" then he is infinite - right? Then how can a finite being "know" that which is infinite? Only by the grace of ... yup... God!

This is where I was able to dig out of my faith crisis in college. Kierkegaard talks about this a lot.
Texaggie7nine
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Yet God doesn't share that grace with the majority of the eastern world?

Peterson is not talking about knowing or understanding God. He is speaking about "believing" in God.

Understanding that faith is believing when you don't fully understand, I think it is perfectly possible to fully "believe" in God, even the Christian God and still fall short and not live up to how Jesus says you should live.
He states that in his conversation with Slavoj Zizek, he heard Zizek say something that he really liked. That being that Jesus himself became an atheist for a moment when he asked God why He has forsaken him.

That makes no sense. It sounds great in a philosophical sort of way, but if Jesus was crying out to God, how could he not believe in God's existence?

You could say he lost faith in that instance that God was not being fair, or doing what was in Jesus' best interest but not faith in the existence of God, which is what an atheists lacks.
7nine
Macarthur
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I am still struggling quite a bit with how to slot Peterson.

He and I clearly have some diff positions, but I think he's very smart and is a very beneficial voice.

However, I think there are some significant problems with Peterson. I still have a hard time getting past his conversation with Harris on truth and how he uses his extensive vocabulary to create these word salads that make him sound incredibly smart, but I feel that he really doesn't get any where (esp in that particular conversation).

I also think his position is really trying to have things both ways. He clearly is a very religious man, but is trying to pass himself off as a man of science. I personally think you can be both, but he seems to want to try and have it both ways.

I think there's an interesting irony in that he kinda became famous for spotlighting these things in the left and SJW's, yet fails to see that he is kinda doing the same thing (again esp with the 'truth' conversation). Many times I hear him, the word obfuscation tends to creep up quite a bit.
Texaggie7nine
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I sided completely with Harris in that, but I still love Peterson's position. I think that point of view has value.

Personally, I do not think Peterson is a devout Christian per se. In his many lectures on the Bible, he makes it clear that there are parts of the bible that he finds quite reprehensible if taken literally.

I really do think he is a devout Jungian when it comes to how he views religion.
7nine
swimmerbabe11
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I haven't listened to Peterson because everyone I've met who is a Jordan Peterson fanboy is also the type of guy who believes in "negging" as a way to approach women and every time I try, that is all I hear.
94chem
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swimmerbabe11 said:

I haven't listened to Peterson because everyone I've met who is a Jordan Peterson fanboy is also the type of guy who believes in "negging" as a way to approach women and every time I try, that is all I hear.


I'd never heard of him until this thread. In what realm do people much younger than me find the rantings of 57 year old Canadian professors interesting? Did I miss some talk show circuit or what?
diehard03
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Quote:

I'd never heard of him until this thread. In what realm do people much younger than me find the rantings of 57 year old Canadian professors interesting? Did I miss some talk show circuit or what?

He got famous fighting against the language policy for pronoun usage and has been leveraging that to sell books and whatnot.

I think he's struggling because he disagrees with pretty much all of his audience, yet finds himself dependent on them for fame.
Texaggie7nine
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I'm sure that the "Pickup Artist Game" guys like Peterson but it has nothing to do with how he thinks women should be treated. I'm sure a lot of those same guys like Metallica. Does that make you not want to listen to Metallica? Or think that Metallica must think women want to be treated badly?

Peterson was latched onto by a lot of those guys because he gives a really intellectually sound argument on why and how men and women will never be equally accounted for in all professions and pay scales. That doesn't mean he thinks women should not have careers, or be the breadwinners, or even have children. He just understands the data and psychology behind it.

Peterson is so much more of a large mover in the intellectual uprising that you cannot judge him by some of his fans.

He really has a lot of great ideas to get out there, and he really seems genuine in his desire to help make the world a better place.

If you are just completely blank on Peterson's ideas and positions then a good place to start would be with both his interviews on Joe Rogan's podcast.

His series on the Old Testament is pretty amazing if you have the time to listen to 2-3 hour lectures.
His youtube channel has all of his video material available for free.

7nine
Texaggie7nine
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94chem said:

swimmerbabe11 said:

I haven't listened to Peterson because everyone I've met who is a Jordan Peterson fanboy is also the type of guy who believes in "negging" as a way to approach women and every time I try, that is all I hear.


I'd never heard of him until this thread. In what realm do people much younger than me find the rantings of 57 year old Canadian professors interesting? Did I miss some talk show circuit or what?
He blew up mostly from his Joe Rogan interviews and subsequent attacks by the left media that failed to take him out. And then his best selling book 12 Rules for Life that came out after.

The younger crowds are big on him because he is saying a lot of things that you no longer hear. He preaches personal responsibility, and a type of motivational help for those younger people who feel like they have no purpose.
7nine
swimmerbabe11
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I totally realize it is unfair. However, I loved Metallica before I knew what dating was. I have never been hit on by someone extolling the virtues of Fuel.

It is not his fault that every time I try to give him a chance, I hear the voice of a dozen pseudo-intellectual dudes who have tried explain how awesome "The Game" is or how traditional religion is for anti science dummies and they are wowowow too smart to be a sheep into Big Religion.

It's my prejudice, not his fault...but it makes me wonder why he has such an appeal to those types beyond using his words to convey mysogyny in a more palatable way.
Texaggie7nine
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I think the real question is, how do you keep finding those types of dudes? I only know like 2 guys into that.
7nine
swimmerbabe11
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You know how some girls are really good at RBF and looking unapproachable? I'm the opposite. Something about me says "oh yes kind stranger, come tell me all about your life problems, I'm definitely interested"
Texaggie7nine
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I would think a major component of The Game would be not to explain the rules to the female you are attempting to use it on.
7nine
swimmerbabe11
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That happened once when a guy tried like three of the tactics like rapid fire and I went "wait a second, is this really happening? Are you trying to do that pick up artist thing? This is so bad." And being persistent, I got a "well obviously you are too smart to fall for it but most chicks..."


Those types are more fun to troll than "I'm a male feminist" types at least.
Texaggie7nine
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Well don't let their admiration of Peterson turn you off.

It is a misnomer that he is only really followed by males. I went to his book tour show when it came to Houston and it was maybe 55/45 men to women.

7nine
diehard03
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Quote:

Those types are more fun to troll than "I'm a male feminist" types at least.

What's wrong with being a male feminist?!?! It's my fault my male privilege has blinded me to the plight of our sisters!
swimmerbabe11
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Ugh it's like the millennial version of white knighting and the old kind with swords and duels was so much better. At least one of the problems died back then.
chimpanzee
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I'm maybe a third of the way through his textbook Maps of Meaning, and it's freaking dense, not sure if I'll finish it, but I think I get where he's coming from in this approach to "belief". The book is a deep dive in to how/why to live a life that maximizes outcomes while dealing with basically infinite variables that can't be objectively integrated together and "scienced". His ideas are contrarian in a lot of ways, but not in the cynical, sarcastic or mean spirited, at least not that I've gathered. If nothing else, it's interesting to see philosophy as a standalone discipline getting some attention.

Texaggie7nine
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That's on my bucket list of books to read.

Some day, when I have hours to spend alone in a quiet room for a month or so, I will conquer it.
7nine
chimpanzee
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Texaggie7nine said:

That's on my bucket list of books to read.

Some day, when I have hours to spend alone in a quiet room for a month or so, I will conquer it.

I have an Audible subscription and listen to it on my commute when I'm up to it. It reads (listens?) like reference material, I've not really tried to get through anything like it before personally.
Macarthur
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https://medium.com/s/story/jordan-peterson-is-a-very-poor-researcher-whose-own-sources-contradict-his-claims-464633558b75
Texaggie7nine
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How can you not see that as a painfully obvious leftist hit piece?

The authors problem with Peterson stems from their distain of hierarchies and power structures if they are Male and or white.

He said he spoke at a conference on the danger of Peterson
7nine
94chem
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Texaggie7nine said:

94chem said:

swimmerbabe11 said:

I haven't listened to Peterson because everyone I've met who is a Jordan Peterson fanboy is also the type of guy who believes in "negging" as a way to approach women and every time I try, that is all I hear.


I'd never heard of him until this thread. In what realm do people much younger than me find the rantings of 57 year old Canadian professors interesting? Did I miss some talk show circuit or what?
He blew up mostly from his Joe Rogan interviews and subsequent attacks by the left media that failed to take him out. And then his best selling book 12 Rules for Life that came out after.

The younger crowds are big on him because he is saying a lot of things that you no longer hear. He preaches personal responsibility, and a type of motivational help for those younger people who feel like they have no purpose.


Thanks. I had to look up who Joe Rogan was. I do like Rogan Josh, though.
PabloSerna
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Texaggie7nine said:

Yet God doesn't share that grace with the majority of the eastern world?

Peterson is not talking about knowing or understanding God. He is speaking about "believing" in God.

Understanding that faith is believing when you don't fully understand, I think it is perfectly possible to fully "believe" in God, even the Christian God and still fall short and not live up to how Jesus says you should live.
He states that in his conversation with Slavoj Zizek, he heard Zizek say something that he really liked. That being that Jesus himself became an atheist for a moment when he asked God why He has forsaken him.

That makes no sense. It sounds great in a philosophical sort of way, but if Jesus was crying out to God, how could he not believe in God's existence?

You could say he lost faith in that instance that God was not being fair, or doing what was in Jesus' best interest but not faith in the existence of God, which is what an atheists lacks.

Another point can be made that JC was quoting Psalm 22 when he uttered those words and they took notice, saying as much.

Something to factor into your thinking is that, for many Christians, especially Catholics, Jesus and God are one being, three persons. He says as much to Phillip when he asks to see the Father. This threw me for a time, until I began to understand it in terms of aspects of the divine.

You say that God doesn't share his grace with the majority of the eastern world, not wanting to assume, please explain this a bit for me?

Last point - you say that Peterson distinguishes between "knowing" and "believing" in God. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that "believing" is fully understanding, whereas "faith" is believing without fully understanding. Hence I wanted to point out that by definition, God is infinite, We are finite. Even the smartest person to have ever lived, still had a finite mind. This may not sit well with people who insist on "fully understanding" something before believing. That is where "grace" is key. So, I can say and really mean it - I believe. HTH

+Pablo
BusterAg
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swimmerbabe11 said:


It's my prejudice, not his fault...but it makes me wonder why he has such an appeal to those types beyond using his words to convey mysogyny in a more palatable way.


Honestly, I think it is because he preaches the virtues of meritocracy in a very rational way, and that the only way to success is through self improvement. That resonates with a lot of different people, including *****y professional spring breakers who define success through meaningless sexual conquest.

You must seem smart, so these guys break out the smartest sounding stuff they know about?
BusterAg
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Texaggie7nine said:

How can you not see that as a painfully obvious leftist hit piece?

The authors problem with Peterson stems from their distain of hierarchies and power structures if they are Male and or white.

He said he spoke at a conference on the danger of Peterson


Tell me about it. The major criticism is that JP fails to acknowledge that this story was hijacked for political purposes. That has nothing to do with the internal conflict present in the story. Maybe Tiamat really does not define chaos as JP says. OK, make that case, don't try to distract on a meaningless tangent about why this thing got written down. Make the case that the ascribed meaning doesn't exhist, or shut up.
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