The difference between televangelists and other rich people is that they operate on fraud and theft. Their donations are heavily supplied by the poor and elderly who have little to give and and getting NOTHING in return but the empty promises of a crook. It's theft targeted toward the elderly. Little different than those Indian phone centers pretending to be the IRS.

As to the general question of how much to pay a religious leader. I think the Muslims do it best. The imam gets a job, just like everyone else and a very small stipend for his efforts.

Could be worse, they could be giving money to a politician.

Aggrad08 said:

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The difference between televangelists and other rich people is that they operate on fraud and theft. Their donations are heavily supplied by the poor and elderly who have little to give and and getting NOTHING in return but the empty promises of a crook. It's theft targeted toward the elderly. Little different than those Indian phone centers pretending to be the IRS.

As to the general question of how much to pay a religious leader. I think the Muslims do it best. The imam gets a job, just like everyone else and a very small stipend for his efforts.

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People are paying for psychic benefit. I'm not sure what that psychic benefit is in this case, but these guys are pikers in the half-baked feel good quackery industry.

The internal justification is a recursive argument, I would guess. Something along the lines of, "they keep sending me money, so I must be doing the right thing by them". Where genuine help ends and exploitation begins is subjective and on a spectrum, but I think that we can all agree what side of the curve these guys fall on.

I don't doubt that they could convince themselves of the opposite though. They make vulnerable people feel better after all, what matter is it that they do so by taking their cash, or so it would go. Repugnant, yes, but as mentioned earlier, fools and money, etc. etc., hard to protect people from themselves.

They will get their reward.

Olsteen seems like regular self help motivational speaking with some religion mixed in I haven't seen him asking for money on old people TV (maybe he does I don't know). He seems to draw more Christian ire due to his theological difference. The televangelist spout something more similar to correct dogma, and I think that spares them Christian ire. Even though they cross me as far less genuine than olsteen.

I am surrounded by christians in family and work life. I grew up in christian communities and have many christians I communicate with on a regular basis.
The vast majority of them like to talk about how lost Osteen is and how he is a false profit who just tells people what they want to hear. They all are fully aware of Jesse and Kenneth and nary the bad word comes out about them. They teach sound biblical lessons.

I think many christians saw Osteen break the golden rule when he would not say that muslims would go to hell. That seems to have driven most away. After all, who the hell wants to follow a god that would allow muslims into heaven. Heaven forbid!!!

Macarthur said:

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IDAGG said:

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Woody2006 said:

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No offense, but a fool and his money are soon parted...

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I agree. It's not like these charlatans are hiding their wealth. If people are still sending them money, well to use another quote: "a sucker is born every minute." - P.T. Barnum.

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As others have stated, they are preying on the most vulnerable in our society. I find your flippant attitude disheartening.

My 80 year old grandmother thought she was truly giving money to a man doing God's work. The fact that someone just brushes that off as her being a fool is pretty repugnant.

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It's not brushing it off necessarily, just acknowledging a phenomenon as old as time. Shameful behavior, certainly, but I'm not sure how one can not expect it to pop up frequently in the human experience.

It's not really calling her a fool, just someone who was fooled, that's on these hucksters conscience.

Quote:

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Olsteen seems like regular self help motivational speaking with some religion mixed in I haven't seen him asking for money on old people TV (maybe he does I don't know). He seems to draw more Christian ire due to his theological difference. The televangelist spout something more similar to correct dogma, and I think that spares them Christian ire. Even though they cross me as far less genuine than olsteen.

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Unintended optic I think. Christian dislike Copland and his like just as much. You will see many objections to the Prosperity Gospel, just not so much their names attached to it. Osteen gets called out because many people associate him with mainline Christian and therefore call us out for it (as Macauthur said earlier). Most understand that these guys are con artists and don't represent Christianity in any way.

Macarthur said:

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IDAGG said:

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Woody2006 said:

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No offense, but a fool and his money are soon parted...

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I agree. It's not like these charlatans are hiding their wealth. If people are still sending them money, well to use another quote: "a sucker is born every minute." - P.T. Barnum.

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As others have stated, they are preying on the most vulnerable in our society. I find your flippant attitude disheartening.

My 80 year old grandmother thought she was truly giving money to a man doing God's work. The fact that someone just brushes that off as her being a fool is pretty repugnant.

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I mean, I don't like that billions of dollars of homeopathic remedies are sold and promoted. I don't like that people send their money to dewshbags like Copeland, nor do I like that people waste their money on cigarettes.

At the end of the day, people choose to do what they choose to do with their money. It is not my place to tell your grandma she can't give money to a church or to Whole Foods for some homeopathic nonsense. She wants the placebo effect, so who am I to take that from her?

I get that it's more personal for you, but at the end of the day people waste their money on all kinds of stupid crap.

Macarthur said:

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IDAGG said:

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Woody2006 said:

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No offense, but a fool and his money are soon parted...

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I agree. It's not like these charlatans are hiding their wealth. If people are still sending them money, well to use another quote: "a sucker is born every minute." - P.T. Barnum.

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As others have stated, they are preying on the most vulnerable in our society. I find your flippant attitude disheartening.

My 80 year old grandmother thought she was truly giving money to a man doing God's work. The fact that someone just brushes that off as her being a fool is pretty repugnant.

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I am sorry if my attitude seems heartless. And I acknowledge that some old folks that are losing their faculties could be ripped off much like they are with IRS scams, the "grandma I'm in trouble scam", etc.

But I have a hard time believing that these guys have amassed all their wealth primarily from the donations of old feeble people. There is all manner of things that are not illegal, but certainly unethical that Americans fall for on a daily basis. Payday and title loan places, get rich quick schemes, work from home scams, etc.

I am not sure what you are suggesting. Sure it would feel good to outlaw not only the financial scams, but these charlatans as well. But these guys are so obvious, with their prosperity Gospel (Osteen), ostentatious wealth and wasting of donations on their lavish lifestyles, miracle water etc, that I am not sure there is law that could stop people from being taken advantage of if they are that gullible.

IDAGG said:

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Macarthur said:

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IDAGG said:

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Woody2006 said:

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No offense, but a fool and his money are soon parted...

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I agree. It's not like these charlatans are hiding their wealth. If people are still sending them money, well to use another quote: "a sucker is born every minute." - P.T. Barnum.

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As others have stated, they are preying on the most vulnerable in our society. I find your flippant attitude disheartening.

My 80 year old grandmother thought she was truly giving money to a man doing God's work. The fact that someone just brushes that off as her being a fool is pretty repugnant.

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I am sorry if my attitude seems heartless. And I acknowledge that some old folks that are losing their faculties could be ripped off much like they are with IRS scams, the "grandma I'm in trouble scam", etc.

But I have a hard time believing that these guys have amassed all their wealth primarily from the donations of old feeble people. There is all manner of things that are not illegal, but certainly unethical that Americans fall for on a daily basis. Payday and title loan places, get rich quick schemes, work from home scams, etc.

I am not sure what you are suggesting. Sure it would feel good to outlaw not only the financial scams, but these charlatans as well. But these guys are so obvious, with their prosperity Gospel (Osteen), ostentatious wealth and wasting of donations on their lavish lifestyles, miracle water etc, that I am not sure there is law that could stop people from being taken advantage of if they are that gullible.

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This issue is certainly more emotional for me.

I agree with much of what you say here.

I think the one point I would make about the bolded is that the IRS scam is righly regarded and treated as the crime that it is...these guys are not. Sure, they are shunned by some of society, but I think what they do should be criminal just like the IRS scammers.

I know that it's difficult to know what that looks like in practice, but that doesn't change the fact that these guys are scam artists.

Woody2006 said:

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Macarthur said:

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IDAGG said:

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Woody2006 said:

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No offense, but a fool and his money are soon parted...

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I agree. It's not like these charlatans are hiding their wealth. If people are still sending them money, well to use another quote: "a sucker is born every minute." - P.T. Barnum.

---

As others have stated, they are preying on the most vulnerable in our society. I find your flippant attitude disheartening.

My 80 year old grandmother thought she was truly giving money to a man doing God's work. The fact that someone just brushes that off as her being a fool is pretty repugnant.

---

I mean, I don't like that billions of dollars of homeopathic remedies are sold and promoted. I don't like that people send their money to dewshbags like Copeland, nor do I like that people waste their money on cigarettes.

At the end of the day, people choose to do what they choose to do with their money. It is not my place to tell your grandma she can't give money to a church or to Whole Foods for some homeopathic nonsense. She wants the placebo effect, so who am I to take that from her?

I get that it's more personal for you, but at the end of the day people waste their money on all kinds of stupid crap.

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You really think there is no distinction between these examples?

At least w the placebo, the folks are getting something out of the remedies...

So non-Christians, what level of criticism are you looking for? I've seen Copeland openly mocked by the Babylon Bee the last few days and I have seen virtually no supporters of him. Yet this thread keeps bringing up that Christians are not critical enough.

A good start would be them not being on TV

My guess is if we did that you would still say its not enough.

THat's why I said it's a start.

I also said very clearly that I think they are scam artists and should be treated as such.

Do you think they are different than IRS phone scammers?

While I don't approve of scamming of any kind, I usually chalk it up its success to the willful ignorance or greed of the victims. So it doesn't bother me much. See the Nigerian prince scam.

However, I am particularly sensitive to "Christian" hucksters and "medical" quacks. In those cases, the scammer is taking advantage of someone's pain and despair to order make a buck while providing no benefit.

Macarthur said:

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Woody2006 said:

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Macarthur said:

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IDAGG said:

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Woody2006 said:

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No offense, but a fool and his money are soon parted...

---

I agree. It's not like these charlatans are hiding their wealth. If people are still sending them money, well to use another quote: "a sucker is born every minute." - P.T. Barnum.

---

As others have stated, they are preying on the most vulnerable in our society. I find your flippant attitude disheartening.

My 80 year old grandmother thought she was truly giving money to a man doing God's work. The fact that someone just brushes that off as her being a fool is pretty repugnant.

---

I mean, I don't like that billions of dollars of homeopathic remedies are sold and promoted. I don't like that people send their money to dewshbags like Copeland, nor do I like that people waste their money on cigarettes.

At the end of the day, people choose to do what they choose to do with their money. It is not my place to tell your grandma she can't give money to a church or to Whole Foods for some homeopathic nonsense. She wants the placebo effect, so who am I to take that from her?

I get that it's more personal for you, but at the end of the day people waste their money on all kinds of stupid crap.

---

You really think there is no distinction between these examples?

At least w the placebo, the folks are getting something out of the remedies...

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Keep in mind I'm an atheist, but do you really think your grandma got less out of giving money to a preacher she gained good feelings from than paying for a pill that has no chance of doing anything positive for her?

It's the same damn thing. Both offer false promises for money. If you're mad about one and not the other, it's because it's personal for you.

This is America.... it's all about marketing

Woody2006 said:

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Macarthur said:

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Woody2006 said:

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Macarthur said:

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IDAGG said:

---

Woody2006 said:

---

No offense, but a fool and his money are soon parted...

---

I agree. It's not like these charlatans are hiding their wealth. If people are still sending them money, well to use another quote: "a sucker is born every minute." - P.T. Barnum.

---

As others have stated, they are preying on the most vulnerable in our society. I find your flippant attitude disheartening.

My 80 year old grandmother thought she was truly giving money to a man doing God's work. The fact that someone just brushes that off as her being a fool is pretty repugnant.

---

I mean, I don't like that billions of dollars of homeopathic remedies are sold and promoted. I don't like that people send their money to dewshbags like Copeland, nor do I like that people waste their money on cigarettes.

At the end of the day, people choose to do what they choose to do with their money. It is not my place to tell your grandma she can't give money to a church or to Whole Foods for some homeopathic nonsense. She wants the placebo effect, so who am I to take that from her?

I get that it's more personal for you, but at the end of the day people waste their money on all kinds of stupid crap.

---

You really think there is no distinction between these examples?

At least w the placebo, the folks are getting something out of the remedies...

---

Keep in mind I'm an atheist, but do you really think your grandma got less out of giving money to a preacher she gained good feelings from than paying for a pill that has no chance of doing anything positive for her?

It's the same damn thing. Both offer false promises for money. If you're mad about one and not the other, it's because it's personal for you.

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I didn't say I was mad at one and not the other. I simply think one is worse, and yes, the medical angle is also capitalizing on someone's pain and weakness, too.

gordo97 said:

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This is America....don't catch you slippin up...

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FIFY

Macarthur said:

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Woody2006 said:

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Macarthur said:

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Woody2006 said:

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Macarthur said:

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IDAGG said:

---

Woody2006 said:

---

No offense, but a fool and his money are soon parted...

---

I agree. It's not like these charlatans are hiding their wealth. If people are still sending them money, well to use another quote: "a sucker is born every minute." - P.T. Barnum.

---

As others have stated, they are preying on the most vulnerable in our society. I find your flippant attitude disheartening.

My 80 year old grandmother thought she was truly giving money to a man doing God's work. The fact that someone just brushes that off as her being a fool is pretty repugnant.

---

I mean, I don't like that billions of dollars of homeopathic remedies are sold and promoted. I don't like that people send their money to dewshbags like Copeland, nor do I like that people waste their money on cigarettes.

At the end of the day, people choose to do what they choose to do with their money. It is not my place to tell your grandma she can't give money to a church or to Whole Foods for some homeopathic nonsense. She wants the placebo effect, so who am I to take that from her?

I get that it's more personal for you, but at the end of the day people waste their money on all kinds of stupid crap.

---

You really think there is no distinction between these examples?

At least w the placebo, the folks are getting something out of the remedies...

---

Keep in mind I'm an atheist, but do you really think your grandma got less out of giving money to a preacher she gained good feelings from than paying for a pill that has no chance of doing anything positive for her?

It's the same damn thing. Both offer false promises for money. If you're mad about one and not the other, it's because it's personal for you.

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I didn't say I was mad at one and not the other. I simply think one is worse, and yes, the medical angle is also capitalizing on someone's pain and weakness, too.

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I think the BS artist preacher is less bad than the giant corporation shilling snake oil, personally.